Why the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not for Today

[Dave L]

I'm confused? is Philip not an apostle too? what are you claiming here that Philip didn't lay his hands on the Eunuch to receive the HS so it never happened? If we are comparing it to the Samarians that Philip was also involved with then are you saying the Eunuch was left in a state similar to the pre-laying on of hands of the Samarians? Does this not leave him ill equipt? One thing that is clear about the Eunuch account is the Spirit was in control, so are you saying the Spirit didn't want the Eunuch to have the baptism of the HS?

Only the 12 received the baptism with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. Apart from the two outpourings only they could bestow it. It was part of the signs and wonders that confirmed apostleship. Philip was an evangelist who received the baptism through the apostle's hands. But he could not convey it to others. This is why the apostles visited the Samarians to baptize them in the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dave L]

Your doctrine reminds me of people saying the gifts of the spirit have ended in Jesus' time. While I have read the scriptures time and time again, I cannot point out where either has ended. Does scripture actually come out and say that?

The Apostles imparted the baptism of the Holy Spirit through their hands. It ended when the last apostle died. We still have the prayer of faith the heals. And scripture which is the complete revelation where tongues and prophecy only gave partial revelation.

 

[Dave L]

I have to disagree. I knew nothing of the Holy Spirit (spookily called the Holy Ghost when I got saved) and I rejected the Baptism of the Holy Spirit for some years. A Pentecostal minister prayed for me and I was healed of two chronic ailments instantly. I changed my mind a little. I decided that it was for a particular group of Christians that did not include me. After much soul searching, researching the Bible and reading many books, I came to the conclusion that it was valid for today. At the time the charismatic renewal was in full swing.

There is a great deal of misunderstanding and outright deception in Pentecostal circles. A great danger is spiritual pride, a sense that the recipient of a gift suddenly becomes superior to the ungifted. Some the most amazing, loving, caring Christians I know are baptised in the Holy Spirit. Some of the hardest, legalistic, coldest and critical are Pentecostals. Let's not confuse gifts and fruit.

For me, it was definitely a second experience. For others, it is at the same time as they are born again. If the Church was as vibrant, loving, united, caring and sharing as it was in the early days, I'd perhaps wonder if the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was no longer necessary. I wish I could say that. I cannot.

The prayer of faith heals. But the "gifts" today are not the same as the originals. The gifts came only through an apostle's hands besides the two outpourings.

 

[Dave L]

John wore a garment of camel hair. He ate honey and grasshoppers. He taught about God. He baptized people as a sign of their cleanness. John baptized Jesus in the Jordan River. As Jesus rose out of the water, the Holy Spirit descended upon him. Jesus began his public ministry.

The Holy Spirit is active today. Many have testified how God changed their lives for the better. Whether you call it being born again or baptized by the Holy Spirit, God’s ministry continues. God is true. Follow the truth wherever it will lead.

This is true, we have the fullness of the Spirit through repentance Acts 2:38. But not the baptism with the Holy Spirit. It was unique to the Apostle's ministry.

 

[Dave L]

Then why didn't Paul spend more time performing baptisms? 1 Corinthians 1:14-15



Like posters have already mentioned, there is no difference between being Born Again and Holy Spirit baptism. God does what He wants and sends the Spirit to whom He desires. God doesnt need human hands to baptize anyone. It happens at His will John 3:8

OT saints were born again but did not receive the Baptism with the Spirit until Pentecost. They are not the same.

 

[Dave L]

Oh, but they're a secret, are they?

If you wanted to see what scripture says, you could see that today's tongues are not the originals.

 

[Dave L]

I don't think so, you made the positive statement and failed to make a positive defense. That's not going to get you a sound topical exposition, your basing the whole thing on a false assumption that it's isolated to tongues and prophecy which is simply indefensible. Paul deals with a long list of gifts of the Holy Spirit in 1 Cor. 12, before dealing with tongues and prophecy at length. You need to defend your core assumption or drop it, which leaves you with little if anything to defend your actual argument.

Believe what you want. I presented the truth in hopes you will study the issue before rejecting it.

 

[Dave L]

Healing is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Paul said this:

1 Corinthians 12
12 Brothers and sisters, I want you to know about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. 2 You know that at one time you were unbelievers. You were somehow drawn away to worship statues of gods that couldn’t even speak. 3 So I want you to know that no one who is speaking with the help of God’s Spirit says, “May Jesus be cursed.” And without the help of the Holy Spirit no one can say, “Jesus is Lord.”
4 There are different kinds of gifts. But they are all given to believers by the same Spirit. 5 There are different ways to serve. But they all come from the same Lord. 6 There are different ways the Spirit works. But the same God is working in all these ways and in all people.
7 The Holy Spirit is given to each of us in a special way. That is for the good of all. 8 To some people the Spirit gives a message of wisdom. To others the same Spirit gives a message of knowledge. 9 To others the same Spirit gives faith. To others that one Spirit gives gifts of healing. 10 To others he gives the power to do miracles. To others he gives the ability to prophesy. To others he gives the ability to tell the spirits apart. To others he gives the ability to speak in different kinds of languages they had not known before. And to still others he gives the ability to explain what was said in those languages. 11 All the gifts are produced by one and the same Spirit. He gives gifts to each person, just as he decides.

Now the list consists of several gifts. We can not puck out the one's we are not comfortable with as all of these are gifted by the Holy Spirit. If wisdom exists today then miracles do too. If knowledge exists today then tongues do as well. All from the same Spirit for the use in the Body of Christ.

The prayer of faith still heals. But don't try to compare today's TV spectacles to the real gifts that came from the Apostle's hands.

 

[Dave L]

If you are speaking of tongues as evidence, then I agree. We are baptized in the Holy Spirit in order to be in the Body of Christ. This is the rebirth, the restoration of our relationship with the Father. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are a whole different thing. These are gifts to help grow the Body. Unfortunately, some groups wrap these gifts into Soteriology thus causing confusion. Even Christ made it a point that not all those who come in His name with supernatural manifestations are in the Body. It would be possible that He never knew them.
Blessings

The New Birth and the Fullness of the Spirit that come from repentance Acts 2:38 are not the Baptism with the Holy Spirit that came only through an Apostle's hands or during the two outpourings.

 

[Dave L]

“Understanding” This is the first error here. A gift is to be received. If we are trying to teach people the Holy Spirit we are only creating confusion.

For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; - Romans 1:11

To impart, or to share, the same Holy Spirit Paul experienced from God. Which is different then to teach in a schoolroom setting.

You are confusing them denying the Baptism came only through an Apostle's hands or through the two outpourings.

 

[Dave L]

But John the Baptist said:
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

All believers have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. In OT times the Spirit was with the born again, faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. But in Acts we see two distinct groups. All believers have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but only those who were in the two outpourings, or those whom the Apostles laid hands on, had the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues.

““As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” Matthew 3:11 (NASB95)

You = 2nd person plural which pertained to John' immediate audience. And this happened as foretold.

 

[Steven Beck]

Why the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not for Today

Stuff'n nonsense. Why do people make stuff up? Show a scripture that specifically says that there is NO baptism of the Holy Spirit in the 21st century or didn't happen after the 1st century. Oh yeah there isn't any.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Did John the Baptist lie? Is Matthew's Gospel in error?

Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. <-- 2nd Witness.

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: <----- 3rd Witness

You teach error which makes you a false teacher.

 

[Dave L]

You make some good points. There is the other side though.

The baptists believe Paul is referring to the completion of scripture when he says "when that which is perfect is come." On the other hand, the Pentecostal folks believe he is referring to the resurrection. Both fit the bill, but I believe one has a better fit.

Paul said "for now WE see through a glass darkly" but then he makes it personal by saying "I know in part but then shall I know." If Paul is referring to the fulfillment of scripture, it doesn't fit. Paul didn't need the fulfillment of scripture to know, he wrote almost 1/3 of the NT, the 12 apostles learned the New covenant from Paul.

But if Paul was referring to the rapture/resurrection it would be a fit. Paul would now be seeing things through a glass darkly, but after the resurrection he would see clearly. Which would mean the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit are still in effect through the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

If we knew exactly what Paul meant by "when that which is perfect is come" the argument would be settled. But I'm afraid we will have to wait for our Lord to settle it for us.

We don't need to wait. only believe what scripture says. Paul says scripture thoroughly equips us 2 Timothy 3:17. Paul said tongues and prophecy provided only partial knowledge 1 Corinthians 13:9. So it makes sense scripture replaced them when completed.

 

[Dave L]

Stuff'n nonsense. Why do people make stuff up? Show a scripture that specifically says that there is NO baptism of the Holy Spirit in the 21st century or didn't happen after the 1st century. Oh yeah there isn't any.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Did John the Baptist lie? Is Matthew's Gospel in error?

Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. <-- 2nd Witness.

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: <----- 3rd Witness

You teach error which makes you a false teacher.

All believers have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. In OT times the Spirit was with the born again, faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. But in Acts we see two distinct groups. All believers have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but only those who were in the two outpourings, or those whom the Apostles laid hands on, had the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues.

““As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” Matthew 3:11 (NASB95)

You = 2nd person plural which pertained to John' immediate audience. And this happened as foretold.

 

[Dave L]

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is when the Holy Spirit enters a person and they become born again. Since you wouldn't say that becoming a christian isn't for today ...

... I'd imagine your post is related to dispy beliefs.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is given by Jesus, not the apostles.

However, this belief (if widespread) would explain why the church is in decline.

The OT saints were born again, but became baptized with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. They are not the same.

 

[Dave L]

My question for the OP @Dave L is this:

People who teach the Baptism of the Spirit, are they teaching false doctrine and thus under anathema?

Those who claim to have the Baptism of the Spirit, are they baptised or under a different Spirit's direction?

Today's claims for the Baptism and the gifts are fraudulent but people are deceived and believe what they say.

 

[Dave L]

How can they be gone when Jesus said they will last until the end of the age. "18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father,and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28:19

Not all are Apostles. In fact none are Apostles since John's death.

 

[Albion]

That is not what I said. My very early experiences with Pentecostals turned me off. My experience with the founder of Teen Challenge in Sydney was the opposite. I'd been born again for a matter of months so I knew absolutely nothing. The Baptist church I attended at the time did not pray for healing. The Teen Challenge guy had what I now know to be a "word of knowledge" about my condition. He prayed for me and I was healed, instantly. God answers the prayer of faith in Jesus name. I was in the armed service at the time I was born again. I travelled most of South East Asia. I went to different churches, whatever I could find, wherever I happened to be. I have no denominational affiliation. Perhaps that is because I saw that the things that unite Christians are far greater than petty doctrinal differences that divide. Some of those churches accepted the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Others did not. I do not myself speak in tongues. Others that I know and respect do. I see the spiritual gifts manifested frequently in my own fellowship.

I wouldn't want to misrepresent your words, but you said a Pentecostal minister prayed for you, which is what any minister might do. And the prayers were answered, according to your account of things.

So that is important when it comes to the power of prayer but has nothing in particular to do with tongues-speaking, gifts of the Holy Ghost, or Pentecostalism. Not so I can tell, anyway, which is why I followed with my question.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The OT saints were born again, but became baptized with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. They are not the same.

No one was born again until after Jesus died on the cross.

 

[Steven Beck]

You = 2nd person plural which pertained to John' immediate audience. And this happened as foretold.

Sad commentary since many of those listening may not have been baptized by the Holy Spirit at all since they may not have believed. Repent of your blasphemy my friend. Good for your soul.