Am I a bad person because I don't believe in eternal hell?

wretched

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It is quite impossible to intellectually convince another of sin, righteousness and Judgement to come. God guarantees that His Spirit does it only through His Word. If one is truly seeking Him they will find Him, He guarantees it. Try this unique study hidden in plain sight:

https://www.jesussaidwhat.com/bread-of-life
 
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Oldmantook

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Wrong! As I have shown you from the full context of the verse. One cannot yank one verse out of its context and make a grammatical argument trying to make it say the opposite of what it does say.
You might want to read Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics by Dr. Dan Wallace pg. 708. Please note the examples at the bottom.

The protasis of the first class condition does not always, or even usually, state its hypothesis as a fact.
The common misconception that it does so, even that it usually does so, has led to serious exegetical errors. Others have said it before, though none so convincingly as Boyer in his 1981 article. He pointed out that only 37% of first class conditions could be accurately presented as meaning "since.” It needs to be emphatically stated here that the first class condition does not mean “since.” One of the best demonstrations of this is seen in Matthew 12:27-28, discussed earlier.
There are a number of such couplets of opposites in the NT in which the first class condition is used in both arguments. It is impossible, in such passages, to claim that the first class condition means since both times. Cf. John 10:37-38; 15:20 (twice); 18:23 (twice); Acts 25:11 (twice); Romans 8:13 (twice); 1 Cor 9:17 (twice); 2 Cor 7:8-9: 2 Tim 2:12 (thrice); 1 Pet 2.20 (twice).
I have never stated or implied "Jesus teaches spiritual death for believers who habitually sin." Perhaps you should actually read what I did write.
Quite ironically, your quote of Wallace points out that in Rom 8:13 "it is impossible, in such passages, to claim that the first class condition means since both times."
That is why I pointed out earlier that every single translation I know of translates this verse using IF not SINCE. That is because Paul makes it clear that he is addressing believers (v.12) and only believers have the choice IF to live according to the flesh OR IF to live according to the Spirit. Unbelievers have no such choice as being unregenerate, they can only choose to live according to the flesh. Only regenerate believers have a choice as indicated by "if." Moreover, James 5:19-20 makes it abundantly clear that a believer who wanders away from the truth faces the prospect of the death of his soul which does not reference physical death. Also it is impossible for an unbeliever to wander away from the truth since he was never in the truth to begin with.
Lastly, I never said you believe Jesus teaches spiritual death for habitual sin. Instead I challenged you to find it in Scripture where he did. The prodigal son was dead and made alive AGAIN. How is one made alive again?
 
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Der Alte

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Quite ironically, your quote of Wallace points out that in Rom 8:13 "it is impossible, in such passages, to claim that the first class condition means since both times."
That is why I pointed out earlier that every single translation I know of translates this verse using IF not SINCE.
Which is completely different than what you said in the post I quoted and responded to. And I quote "It is not a matter of "if" unbelievers sin; instead it is "since" they sin."
That is because Paul makes it clear that he is addressing believers (v.12) and only believers have the choice IF to live according to the flesh OR IF to live according to the Spirit. Unbelievers have no such choice as being unregenerate, they can only choose to live according to the flesh. Only regenerate believers have a choice as indicated by "if." Moreover, James 5:19-20 makes it abundantly clear that a believer who wanders away from the truth faces the prospect of the death of his soul which does not reference physical death. Also it is impossible for an unbeliever to wander away from the truth since he was never in the truth to begin with.
Lastly, I never said you believe Jesus teaches spiritual death for habitual sin. Instead I challenged you to find it in Scripture where he did. The prodigal son was dead and made alive AGAIN. How is one made alive again?
And you, adamantly trying to support your assumptions/presuppositions, persist in ignoring the full context of the passage.
Of course, Paul is addressing the church at Rome in his epistle to the church at Rome, but everybody in the church is not an obedient believer, thus the caution in the first part of vs. 13 and other verses.

Romans 8:13-14
(13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
(14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
As I said before the converse of vs. 14 is "as many as are [not] led by the Spirit of God, they are [not] the sons of God.""expressio unius est exclusio alterius" "the mention or one or more things in a class excludes all others."
.....Please explain to to me why should I try to find in scripture where Jesus teaches spiritual death for habitual sin, when I have never mentioned it?
 
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Oldmantook

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Which is completely different than what you said in the post I quoted and responded to. And I quote "It is not a matter of "if" unbelievers sin; instead it is "since" they sin."

And you, adamantly trying to support your assumptions/presuppositions, persist in ignoring the full context of the passage.
Of course, Paul is addressing the church at Rome in his epistle to the church at Rome, but everybody in the church is not an obedient believer, thus the caution in the first part of vs. 13 and other verses.

Romans 8:13-14
(13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
(14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
As I said before the converse of vs. 14 is "as many as are [not] led by the Spirit of God, they are [not] the sons of God.""expressio unius est exclusio alterius" "the mention or one or more things in a class excludes all others."
.....Please explain to to me why should I try to find in scripture where Jesus teaches spiritual death for habitual sin, when I have never mentioned it?

Which is completely different than what you said in the post I quoted and responded to. And I quote "It is not a matter of "if" unbelievers sin; instead it is "since" they sin."
Comprehend what I wrote. The word SINCE is not employed in this verse since Paul is not addressing unbelievers. That is why he used the word IF because only believers can choose IF to live by the flesh or IF to live by the Spirit. Therefore v.13 can in no way apply to unbelievers or false brethren. If Paul were addressing unbelievers in the first clause of this verse, he would have employed SINCE but he did not do so. Therefore, Paul's intention is clear. He warns the brethren in Rome that if they habitually sin by living according to the flesh, they will die; i.e. spiritual death.

Of course, Paul is addressing the church at Rome in his epistle to the church at Rome, but everybody in the church is not an obedient believer, thus the caution in the first part of vs. 13 and other verses.
Indeed, everyone in the church is not an obedient believer hence his warning of spiritual death for those who chronically sin which evidences an unrepentant lifestyle. A believer can choose to be disobedient. An unbeliever has no such choice regarding disobedience.

s I said before the converse of vs. 14 is "as many as are [not] led by the Spirit of God, they are [not] the sons of God.""expressio unius est exclusio alterius" "the mention or one or more things in a class excludes all others."
They are not sons of God because instead of being led by the Spirit, the are led by the flesh - the result of which is spiritual death. We are talking about one class of people, i.e. believers only as I explained above. If a believer lives according to the flesh, he faces the prospect of spiritual death. If a believer lives according to the Spirit, he will spiritually live. If you are implying that these people are really unbelievers then I reject that for my reasons stated above.

...Please explain to to me why should I try to find in scripture where Jesus teaches spiritual death for habitual sin, when I have never mentioned it?
You need not mention it. I mentioned it because correct me if I'm wrong but you believe in eternal security. Rom 8:13 counters that belief that a genuine believer can never lose their secure position in Christ. If Jesus taught that a Christian is not secure in his salvation then the principle of first mention requires that all scripture written by the Apostles be interpreted in light of what Jesus taught.
 
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Der Alte

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Comprehend what I wrote. The word SINCE is not employed in this verse since Paul is not addressing unbelievers. That is why he used the word IF because only believers can choose IF to live by the flesh or IF to live by the Spirit. Therefore v.13 can in no way apply to unbelievers or false brethren. If Paul were addressing unbelievers in the first clause of this verse, he would have employed SINCE but he did not do so. Therefore, Paul's intention is clear. He warns the brethren in Rome that if they habitually sin by living according to the flesh, they will die; i.e. spiritual death.
Which Greek word that means "since" would Paul have used in Rom 5:18?
You are still ignoring vs. 14 and the implication which I have stated twice.

Indeed, everyone in the church is not an obedient believer hence his warning of spiritual death for those who chronically sin which evidences an unrepentant lifestyle. A believer can choose to be disobedient. An unbeliever has no such choice regarding disobedience.
Joshua seemed to think the unrepentant could make a choice.
They are not sons of God because instead of being led by the Spirit, the are led by the flesh - the result of which is spiritual death. We are talking about one class of people, i.e. believers only as I explained above. If a believer lives according to the flesh, he faces the prospect of spiritual death. If a believer lives according to the Spirit, he will spiritually live. If you are implying that these people are really unbelievers then I reject that for my reasons stated above.
You are free to reject anything you want to but as I stated before Paul's audience included both.

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Jesus evidently thought His followers could stop abiding in Him.
Mark 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
Jesus evidently thought His followers could fail to forgive and thus not be forgiven.
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Jesus evidently thought His believers could fail to continue in His word and thus not be disciples.
1Co 15:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;1 Corinthians
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
Paul evidently thought the Corinthians could forget the gospel and not be saved.
Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Paul evidently thought the Colossians could fail to continue in the faith and move away from the gospel.
1 Thessalonians 3:8 For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.
Paul evidently thought the Thessalonians could not stand fast and thus not live.
Hebrews 3:14
(14) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
The writer of Hebrews evidently thought it possible for his audience to fail to hold on to their confidence and be steadfast to the end.
Hebrews 6:4-6
(4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
(5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
(6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
The writer of Hebrews evidently thought it was possible for believers to fall away.
The only impossibility stated is being restored if they fall away. Only believers can fall away.
You need not mention it. I mentioned it because correct me if I'm wrong but you believe in eternal security. Rom 8:13 counters that belief that a genuine believer can never lose their secure position in Christ. If Jesus taught that a Christian is not secure in his salvation then the principle of first mention requires that all scripture written by the Apostles be interpreted in light of what Jesus taught.
See above.
 
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Oldmantook

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Which Greek word that means "since" would Paul have used in Rom 5:18?
You are still ignoring vs. 14 and the implication which I have stated twice.
And what implication is that? For clarification do you believe it is impossible for believers to live according to the flesh and not spiritually die as a result. Yes or no? Or do you believe v.13 refers to unbelievers? You already agreed that v.14 refers to the brethren. Are you referring to false brethren?

Joshua seemed to think the unrepentant could make a choice.
So the unrepentant can live according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh despite being unregenerated? Yes or No?

The writer of Hebrews evidently thought it was possible for believers to fall away.
The only impossibility stated is being restored if they fall away. Only believers can fall away.
Indeed it is possible for believers to fall away. If you paid attention to the participle tenses in that verse you would realize that it is impossible to renew them to repentance because they are crucifying and publically shaming Christ. Since they continue to do those things, it is obvious that they are unrepentant, have no interest in seeking forgiveness - therefore it impossible to restore them to repentance.
 
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Der Alte

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And what implication is that? For clarification do you believe it is impossible for believers to live according to the flesh and not spiritually die as a result. Yes or no? Or do you believe v.13 refers to unbelievers? You already agreed that v.14 refers to the brethren. Are you referring to false brethren?...
I suggest you reread my posts I did not agree that v. 14 refers to the brethren. I stated my position more than once.
 
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Oldmantook

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I suggest you reread my posts I did not agree that v. 14 refers to the brethren. I stated my position more than once.
So you think v. 13 refers to false brethren/unbeliever? How can Paul write IF you live according to the flesh? Instead he would have written SINCE you live according to the flesh.... An unbeliever being unregenerated by the Spirit can forsake living according to the flesh? Never met one in my life. Never met one described in Scripture. How about you?
 
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So you think v. 13 refers to false brethren/unbeliever? How can Paul write IF you live according to the flesh? Instead he would have written SINCE you live according to the flesh.... An unbeliever being unregenerated by the Spirit can forsake living according to the flesh? Never met one in my life. Never met one described in Scripture. How about you?
You keep making this argument, I asked this question before. Which Greek word would Paul have used if he intended to write, "SINCE you live according to the flesh?"
My previous post. Please tell which part you do not understand?

"Of course, Paul is addressing the church at Rome in his epistle to the church at Rome, but everybody in the church is not an obedient believer, thus the caution in the first part of vs. 13 and other verses.
Romans 8:13-14
(13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
(14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
As I said before the converse of vs. 14 is "as many as are [not] led by the Spirit of God, they are [not] the sons of God.""expressio unius est exclusio alterius" "the mention of one or more things in a class excludes all others."
 
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Oldmantook

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You keep making this argument, I asked this question before. Which Greek word would Paul have used if he intended to write, "SINCE you live according to the flesh?"
My previous post. Please tell which part you do not understand?

"Of course, Paul is addressing the church at Rome in his epistle to the church at Rome, but everybody in the church is not an obedient believer, thus the caution in the first part of vs. 13 and other verses.
Romans 8:13-14
(13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
(14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
As I said before the converse of vs. 14 is "as many as are [not] led by the Spirit of God, they are [not] the sons of God.""expressio unius est exclusio alterius" "the mention of one or more things in a class excludes all others."
Paul could have used ἐπεί, ἐπειδή for since.
Let's get to the bottom of this. You claim that everyone in the church is not an obedient believer - which may indeed be true. So assuming that, does that make a disobedient believer unsaved, or was he never saved in the first place? If you choose the latter option, then that conflicts with Js 5:19-20 where James wrote the the wandering brother unless turned away from his wandering, faces the death of his soul. The latter option also conflicts with Jesus' own teaching where the prodigal son became dead (spiritual death as it is obvious that he didn't physically die) but was made alive AGAIN. The prodigal was spiritually alive when he lived in his father's house but he spent his inheritance on sinful living and became spiritually dead. He was made alive AGAIN when in repentance he returned to the Father seeking forgiveness. When one becomes a believer, he is made alive in Christ (first time) but can through habitual sin (like the prodigal) become spiritually dead. However if he repents and seeks forgiveness (like the prodigal) he is made alive AGAIN. If he does not repent, the believer remains spiritually dead.
 
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INeedGrace

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"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." - Daniel 12:2

Jesus, in the gospel of Mark, quotes from Isaiah 66:24 when he said, "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (ch. 9:44), in speaking of Hell.



He is spoke more about Hell than all the prophets and apostles combined. I suggest reading the four gospels...



Eternal punishment is God's display of divine justice toward evil, and it glorifies his mercy towards those whom he saves. It shows the severe weight that sin carries.

On your second question, we don't deserve to go to heaven, we deserve to be punished. God is not obligated to anyone, he has the right to save no one. Even if someone never heard of Christ, they are still sinners who have rebelled against an absolutely holy God.

Do you believe, as many have in the past, that part of the joy of heaven will be seeing the torments of the damned?
 
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INeedGrace

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What do you think of this verse ?

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10



.

Day and night. Doesn't Revelations also say that there will be no more night?
 
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INeedGrace

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Love and freewill. You can't have true love without freewill. You can't force someone to love someone. God knows this .. we know this.

Without freewill, we would be nothing more than robots, and not a true loving relationship.

ECT (eternal conscious torment) in LOF (lake of fire) is not so ...

And yet most evangelicals believe babies, young children and the mentally challenged get a free pass into heaven. Do those exercise their "free will?" How important is "free will" if there are whole classes of people who are exempted?
 
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INeedGrace

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No, I never heard of that...

Here's a few quotes:

Jonathan Edwards


“The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven.”

The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. . .Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell. . . I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss.


Thomas Boston


"God shall not pity them but laugh at their calamity. The righteous company in heaven shall rejoice in the execution of God's judgment, and shall sing while the smoke riseth up for ever."


Thomas Aquinas


In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned. . .So that they may be urged the more to praise God. . .The saints in heaven know distinctly all that happens. . .to the damned.

Peter Lombard
“Therefore the elect shall go forth…to see the torments of the impious, seeing which they will not be grieved, but will be satiated with joy at the sight of the unutterable calamity of the impious .”


Tertullian

“At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause."





 
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Jonaitis

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Here's a few quotes:

Jonathan Edwards


“The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven.”

The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. . .Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell. . . I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss.

Interesting, this actually is found in passages such as Romans 9:22-23. I think I've shared his view if I understand him right.
 
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Der Alte

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And yet most evangelicals believe babies, young children and the mentally challenged get a free pass into heaven. Do those exercise their "free will?" How important is "free will" if there are whole classes of people who are exempted?
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
 
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Paul could have used ἐπεί, ἐπειδή for since.
It occurs in the NT 26 times and is only translated "since" in one verse in the KJV. But I will go with the approximately 300 years of Greek scholarship in the BDAG that ει can mean "since."
Let's get to the bottom of this. You claim that everyone in the church is not an obedient believer - which may indeed be true. So assuming that, does that make a disobedient believer unsaved, or was he never saved in the first place? If you choose the latter option, then that conflicts with Js 5:19-20 where James wrote the the wandering brother unless turned away from his wandering, faces the death of his soul. The latter option also conflicts with Jesus' own teaching where the prodigal son became dead (spiritual death as it is obvious that he didn't physically die) but was made alive AGAIN. The prodigal was spiritually alive when he lived in his father's house but he spent his inheritance on sinful living and became spiritually dead. He was made alive AGAIN when in repentance he returned to the Father seeking forgiveness. When one becomes a believer, he is made alive in Christ (first time) but can through habitual sin (like the prodigal) become spiritually dead. However if he repents and seeks forgiveness (like the prodigal) he is made alive AGAIN. If he does not repent, the believer remains spiritually dead.
I said what I said, deciding who is or is not an obedient believer is God's purview not mine.
In Luke 15:24 it was not the father's purview to determine if his son was spiritually dead or not. The father was using νεκρος/dead figuratively.
As for your repentance discussion I refer you to Heb 6:4-6.

Hebrews 6:4-6
(4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
(5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
(6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


 
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