Is God really love......(1 John 4:8) ??

[nolidad]

<MM>You know, I quite often hear the standard Christian response, God must send people to be eternally punished, because he is ultimately just. I was think to myself, if God is ultimately just, that's the reason there is no such place as hell.
Surely you wouldn't sentence someone to the same punishment for stealing bread, as you would for murder? No, only the most corrupt institutions of man would do such at thing. God's justice is perfect....that's why there is no such thing as eternal punishment.<MM>

You misunderstand everything.

People do not go to hell because they sin- people go tot hell because they reject the death burial and resurrection of Jesus for their sins.

Every human being stands condemned by nature! Eph. 2:

Ephesians 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Tjhe unsaved cannot even perceive the things of God.

All are condemned and god has provided a way for man to escape this punishment!

As for your words you wrote in red? I give you scripture:

Romans 9:
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

If God decides to do something- who are any of us to argue against it????

 

[nolidad]

Love does not do the things you hellists think it does. You have to prove from me that love would torture another person for their wrongs instead of helping them be cured of that which is wrong with them and made them do the wrong actions in the first place. Love does only good to the object of its affections, therefore, since God is love and loves all, then He can only do good.

If you read Scripture, you will see that from the very beginning it is man who kills his fellow man. If you follow the line of Scripture, you will see that it is man who creates false ideas of God, including a "god" that demands infant sacrifice. It is man in his darkness who imprints his vision of what God is on the true and living God who is love.

You seem to forget that god ordered the slaughter of entire cities by Israel! The men women and children and animals as well!

Also you forget what Jesus said in JOhn 3:
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


God is Love indeed! But He is also holy just and vengeful amongst other things. He gave Jesus to redeem mankind! But to reject His gift of Love has eternal toremnting consequences. It isn't that God does nt0o love enough- it is that man is too proud to accept what they cannot earn on their won before God!

 

[eleos1954]

Is God really love?

Let's start out by defining love. Let's use first the common and accepted definition: love is seeking to do that for another being which is in their best interests. Love always does that which is best for the other person.

Now let's take the Bible definition:

1Co 13:4 The love is long-suffering, it is kind, the love doth not envy, the love doth not vaunt itself, is not puffed up, 5 doth not act unseemly, doth not seek its own things, is not provoked, doth not impute evil, 6 rejoiceth not over the unrighteousness, and rejoiceth with the truth;
7 all things it beareth, all it believeth, all it hopeth, all it endureth. 8 The love doth never fail;

And finally, the outworking of such love as instructed by Jesus:

Mat 5:43 Ye heard that it was said: Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and shalt hate thine enemy; 44 but I -- I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those cursing you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those accusing you falsely, and persecuting you, 45 that ye may be sons of your Father in the heavens, because His sun He doth cause to rise on evil and good, and He doth send rain on righteous and unrighteous. 46 'For, if ye may love those loving you, what reward have ye? do not also the tax-gatherers the same? 47 and if ye may salute your brethren only, what do ye abundant? do not also the tax-gatherers so? 48 ye shall therefore be perfect, as your Father who is in the heavens is perfect.

So according to Jesus, to do good to those who are your enemies makes us perfect like our Father in heaven.

But according to the concept of eternal conscious torment, God does not forgive His enemies, does not do good to them, but instead gets revenge on them in the most excruciating manner possible.

Which is love: chastising a wayward and rebellious child so that it may be healed of its rebellion, or putting that child's hand on a hot stove and leaving it there for the rest of its life?

Which is love: creating sentient beings that will be tortured forever so that you can receive glory from their suffering, or having a plan to rescue them from themselves after a period of chastening?

Which is love: destroying sin forever so that it no longer can desecrate what you have created, or keeping it alive in sentient beings to torment them forever and ever because you will neither annihilate nor cure them?

Which is love: torturing sentient beings forever in a punishment that accomplishes absolutely nothing and in its endlessness never ceases, or chastising them in fire which will burn away their evil and bring them to the holiness which was the original plan for all mankind?

How is it that we can speak of "God is love" out of one side of our mouths and then attribute to Him things that if you or I were to do them, we would be labeled as psychotics and madmen? Has Christianity lost site of what love really is and does? Or is God only love because you get to go to heaven, but if the rest of the world doesn't ......meeeeaaaah, so what?

And how is that last attitude really love - the desiring of the best for others - on your part?

concept of eternal conscious torment

This is a teaching in error. In the very end, God will destroy all who sinned ... those who either ignored or refused the gift of salvation through Jesus.

They all had the opportunity to do so, and chose otherwise and forfeit eternal life, by their own choice.

What is sin? Transgression of the Law
Without law there is lawlessness (sin)

1st Corinthians 15:26
New Living Translation
25 And the last enemy to be destroyed is death.

The wages of sin is death.

Romans 6:23

New International Version
For the wages of sin is death (for eternity), but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Light of the East]

Well it sounds like St. Isaac teaches salvation after death, which is unbiblical.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

All writings of men must be compared to the Word of God! And in this case- St. Isaac is very very wrong!

Salvation has already been accomplished for the whole world and all that every have lived are saved, according to St. Paul

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So the work of Christ on the Cross has saved all mankind according to Paul. The issue the becomes whether or not souls can be brought to repentance in the next life. Do you see any reason that couldn't happen?

 

[Light of the East]

This is a teaching in error. In the very end, God will destroy all who sinned ... those who either ignored or refused the gift of salvation through Jesus.

They all had the opportunity to do so, and chose otherwise and forfeit eternal life, by their own choice.

What is sin? Transgression of the Law
Without law there is lawlessness (sin)

1st Corinthians 15:26
New Living Translation
25 And the last enemy to be destroyed is death.

The wages of sin is death.

Romans 6:23

New International Version
For the wages of sin is death (for eternity), but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Perhaps God destroys the sinner by making him a saint. Tell me why God can't do that?

 

[Light of the East]

You seem to forget that god ordered the slaughter of entire cities by Israel! The men women and children and animals as well!

Also you forget what Jesus said in JOhn 3:
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


God is Love indeed! But He is also holy just and vengeful amongst other things. He gave Jesus to redeem mankind! But to reject His gift of Love has eternal tormenting consequences. It isn't that God does nt0o love enough- it is that man is too proud to accept what they cannot earn on their won before God!

Nope. God is not vengeful. I don't see that definition anywhere in 1 Corinthians 13 where it describes love. It is mankind that takes revenge. God does not have those passions, for He is spirit and He is immutable (without passions).

Anything that looks like revenge to us is still God acting according to His being, which is love. Chastisement may look like revenge, but it is not. Justice may look like revenge, but it is not. Anything done which we human beings see as anger, revenge, getting even, etc., on the part of God is still God acting in love for the good of the persons involved.

Now how does torturing someone eternally meet the criteria of doing something for the good of that person?

 

[eleos1954]

Perhaps God destroys the sinner by making him a saint. Tell me why God can't do that?

What are saints?

 

[Light of the East]

[QUOTE="nolidad

You misunderstand everything.

People do not go to hell because they sin- people go tot hell because they reject the death burial and resurrection of Jesus for their sins.

And for a long time, the Church taught that all those who were not in Christ were condemned. Imagine that, being condemned for not accepting the Jesus you never even heard of!

Every human being stands condemned by nature! Eph. 2:

True. That is Scripture. But is that condemnation eternal in nature? Show me where it is just or fair to condemn someone to eternal torment because they didn't accept the Jesus they never heard of. And what are we condemned to? Eternal and unending torment, or the scourging of God for our sins to restore us to Him? Of what possible purpose is just torturing someone without end? Even wicked humans don't do that, and we are discussing God, who is love.

Ephesians 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The unsaved cannot even perceive the things of God.

All are condemned and god has provided a way for man to escape this punishment!

As for your words you wrote in red? I give you scripture:

Romans 9:
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Totally out of context. St. Paul is discussing the fate of the Jews in Romans 9, not the whole world. Earlier in Romans 5, Paul stated that the sacrifice of Christ has saved all mankind. So you have to take that into consideration. You can't make that a blanket statement for eternal hell.

If God decides to do something- who are any of us to argue against it????

Which means that if He decides to save everyone, why does that get your knickers in a knot? I would think that would make you very joyful, especially if you have unsaved loved ones. Scripture says that Jesus died for all, that all are saved in Him, that all the world will be reconciled to God through Him. Why is it so troublesome to you if God does that in the next life as opposed to this life?

 

[Light of the East]

What are saints?

Anyone who loves God and seeks to obey Him.

Or let me put it another way, God destroys His enemies by making them His friends. (Thomas Merton)

 

[eleos1954]

Anyone who loves God and seeks to obey Him.

Or let me put it another way, God destroys His enemies by making them His friends. (Thomas Merton)

If, one has received Jesus, He will work in them and through them and changes will occur with them becoming more a reflection of His image over their earthly lifetime ... However, with believers their sin nature is not totally destroyed until they are resurrected in the 1st resurrection and are changed (become immortal) and then receive eternal life and are with the Lord.

Later ... the 2nd resurrection, (the unsaved) are raised up mortal (not changed) and are destroyed ... this is the second death ... and the last to be destroyed is death (to never exist again).

Malachi 4:3
English Standard Version
And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the LORD of hosts.

 

[Light of the East]

[QUOTE="eleos1954

If, one has received Jesus, He will work in them and through them and changes will occur with them becoming more a reflection of His image over their earthly lifetime ... However, with believers their sin nature is not totally destroyed until they are resurrected in the 1st resurrection and are changed (become immortal) and then receive eternal life and are with the Lord.

First of all, you don't "receive" eternal life. Christ is eternal life. When you are in Christ, in union with Him you have life. One is taken from a state of death, which is simply separation from God, to being in Christ, who is life.

Why do you think that only in this life souls can be changed? Why put a time limit on it?

Later ... the 2nd resurrection, (the unsaved) are raised up mortal (not changed) and are destroyed ... this is the second death ... and the last to be destroyed is death (to never exist again).

Malachi 4:3
English Standard Version
And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the LORD of hosts.[/QUOTE]

 

[eleos1954]

[QUOTE="eleos1954

If, one has received Jesus, He will work in them and through them and changes will occur with them becoming more a reflection of His image over their earthly lifetime ... However, with believers their sin nature is not totally destroyed until they are resurrected in the 1st resurrection and are changed (become immortal) and then receive eternal life and are with the Lord.

First of all, you don't "receive" eternal life. Christ is eternal life. When you are in Christ, in union with Him you have life. One is taken from a state of death, which is simply separation from God, to being in Christ, who is life.

Why do you think that only in this life souls can be changed? Why put a time limit on it?

Later ... the 2nd resurrection, (the unsaved) are raised up mortal (not changed) and are destroyed ... this is the second death ... and the last to be destroyed is death (to never exist again).

Malachi 4:3
English Standard Version
And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the LORD of hosts.

[/QUOTE]

Was referring to the physical, we do experience the spiritual (sanctification) throughout our life time while on earth ... His work continues in the believer until their earthly death or until He returns. We are not Immortal, until He changes us.

1 Corinthians 15:51-55

51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”

Philippians 1:6

And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.

 

[nolidad]

Nope. God is not vengeful. I don't see that definition anywhere in 1 Corinthians 13 where it describes love. It is mankind that takes revenge. God does not have those passions, for He is spirit and He is immutable (without passions).

Anything that looks like revenge to us is still God acting according to His being, which is love. Chastisement may look like revenge, but it is not. Justice may look like revenge, but it is not. Anything done which we human beings see as anger, revenge, getting even, etc., on the part of God is still God acting in love for the good of the persons involved.

Now how does torturing someone eternally meet the criteria of doing something for the good of that person?

Well 1 Cor. 13 only lists love- not what holiness justice and vengeance is with God!

But Gods Word saysd that those who reject His free gift of Love in teh death and resurrection of Jesus for their sin debt have to suffer eternally for rejecting teh gift! That should end the matter! That is what god said- anything else is personal opinion and we are forbidden to add our opinion to gods Word!

Chastisement is for Gods Children- not for those who have no relationship with god! Heb. 12: 5-7

God does not work for the good of the unbeliever!

REread Romans 8:
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God only works for the good for those whom love HIm and are THE called according ot HIs purposes!~

JOhn 3: 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Not much room for those touchy -feely emotions. The unbeliever continually has gods wrath abiding on them!

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<LE>The backup from Scripture is the character of God. God IS love. That is His very being. Therefore, any interpretation of Scripture - after all, that is what we are arguing about - that is not in line with Him being love is simply a misunderstanding of some sort.
Love does not do the things you hellists think it does. You have to prove from me that love would torture another person for their wrongs instead of helping them be cured of that which is wrong with them and made them do the wrong actions in the first place. Love does only good to the object of its affections, therefore, since God is love and loves all, then He can only do good.
If you read Scripture, you will see that from the very beginning it is man who kills his fellow man. If you follow the line of Scripture, you will see that it is man who creates false ideas of God, including a "god" that demands infant sacrifice. It is man in his darkness who imprints his vision of what God is on the true and living God who is love.
And the Early Fathers are not exempt from such errors either inasmuch as we see that they got caught in Arianism and other false ideas of God before councils corrected them.
You have no idea of God IS love. Neither do I. Neither does the whole world. From the very beginning, Satan has worked to smear the character of God ("He doesn't want you to eat of the fruit because He is selfish and mean. He knows if you do, you will be like Him, knowing good from evil") to making up false ideas about God ("God wants you to throw your baby in the fire so you can have good crops. If you don't do it, He will smite you and your family.") to all the other false impressions of God. [Irrelevant! DA] Remember, Satan is the accuser, including the accuser of God to us.
I reject any and all interpretations of Scripture which are out of line with the revelation we have been given - i.e., God IS love. That is the foundation of everything we have to understand about God. Everything revolves around that fact of His Being.<LE>

end

I'm sorry, did you quote any scripture here I couldn't find any?
Don't tell me what I do or do not know!
None of this addresses anything I have posted. Are we having a discussion or are you just going to lecture me with your opinion?
The ECF are the ONLY history we have of the early church after the time of the disciples. Those who ignore their history are doomed to repeat it.
If any of the ECF I quoted are in error prove it from scripture don't just condemn all of them with innuendo. Many of them were martyred for their faith because they would not worship the emperor. As I said three of ECF I quoted were Ignatius and Polycarp students of John and Irenaeus a student of Polycarp.