God loves everyone?

BNR32FAN

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Foreknow means to to have known as in a loving relationship, not know things about what someone did in a future life. Those God foreknew as His own. Dont imply God did not know as God knows all things before they occur.
Many people mistakenly view this foreknowing as nothing more than foreknowledge, do you get that?

For 'whom' HE foreknew, He also did predestine., not what he foreknew.

The 'others' God did not foreknow them in a loving relationship. He had no great love for the others, He disregarded them. For example those who rejected the OC, God disregarded them, He did not help them to salvation. He ignored them, so HE certainly then did not die for them He did not foreknow, that is just a useless waste of His time patiently waiting for the reprobate to repent and believe when He knows they never will.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

That is not the definition of the Greek word used friend.


For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

foreknow

G4267


Lemma:

προγινώσκω


Transliteration:

proginṓskō


Pronounce:

prog-in-oce'-ko


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to have knowledge before hand

2) to foreknow a) of those whom God elected to salvation

3) to predestinate
 
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Hammster

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That is not the definition of the Greek word used friend.


For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

foreknow

G4267


Lemma:

προγινώσκω


Transliteration:

proginṓskō


Pronounce:

prog-in-oce'-ko


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to have knowledge before hand

2) to foreknow a) of those whom God elected to salvation

3) to predestinate
προγινώσκω

proginṓskō; fut. prognṓsomai, 2d aor. proégnōn, from pró (G4253), before, and ginṓskō (G1097), to know. To perceive or recognize beforehand, know previously, take into account or specially consider beforehand, to grant prior acknowledgement or recognition to someone, to foreknow.
 
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sdowney717

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Paul uses foreknow in another place, Romans 11, to describe the elect of God whom He reserved for Himself.
God never rejects His people whom He foreknew, not ever, not of Israel or of the gentiles. He rescues them into a saving relationship of love with Himself. The rest, the 'others' were blinded just as it is written. Down to this very day they remain blinded if they are not elect to be saved by God.
The Geneva 1599 bible captures this Him turning us well.

2 Corinthians 3:15-16 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is laid over their hearts.
16 Nevertheless when their heart shall be turned to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.


Psalm 80:19 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
19 Turn us again, O Lord God of hosts: cause thy face to shine, and we shall be saved.

Acts 16:14 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of the Thyatirians, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things, which Paul spake.

Romans 11 New King James Version (NKJV)
Israel’s Rejection Not Total
1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”
 
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BNR32FAN

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προγινώσκω

proginṓskō; fut. prognṓsomai, 2d aor. proégnōn, from pró (G4253), before, and ginṓskō (G1097), to know. To perceive or recognize beforehand, know previously, take into account or specially consider beforehand, to grant prior acknowledgement or recognition to someone, to foreknow.

I don’t see how this differs with the definition I provided. There’s still no mention of a loving relationship which is the point I was addressing.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Paul uses foreknow in another place, Romans 11, to describe the elect of God whom He reserved for Himself.
God never rejects His people whom He foreknew, not ever, not of Israel or of the gentiles. He rescues them into a saving relationship of love with Himself. The rest, the 'others' were blinded just as it is written. Down to this very day they remain blinded if they are not elect to be saved by God.
The Geneva 1599 bible captures this Him turning us well.

2 Corinthians 3:15-16 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is laid over their hearts.
16 Nevertheless when their heart shall be turned to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.


Psalm 80:19 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
19 Turn us again, O Lord God of hosts: cause thy face to shine, and we shall be saved.

Acts 16:14 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of the Thyatirians, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things, which Paul spake.

Romans 11 New King James Version (NKJV)
Israel’s Rejection Not Total
1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

Paul then continues on in the same chapter to say

“I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, " THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." " THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:11-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

God will take away their blindness and bring back to repentance all of Israel.
 
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Hammster

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I don’t see how this differs with the definition I provided. There’s still no mention of a loving relationship which is the point I was addressing.
I guess you have to understand how “know” is used in scripture.

It’s the same idea as conveyed here

“"You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.”
‭‭Amos‬ ‭3:2‬ ‭ESV‬‬

The knowing is an intimate knowing.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Yes and no. The “cannot” is not physical, but moral. So it would be right to say that man will not come to God because of his nature which is the result of the fall.

He could believe, but he won’t because his affection is for sin.

What does believing have to do with sin? Every believer still sins and still has a sinful nature. Sure it may be less than before they believed but their sinful nature is still present otherwise we wouldn’t sin at all.

All Christians still sin and yet they believe. So I don’t understand how our sinful nature can keep someone from believing.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I guess you have to understand how “know” is used in scripture.

It’s the same idea as conveyed here

“"You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.”
‭‭Amos‬ ‭3:2‬ ‭ESV‬‬

The knowing is an intimate knowing.

Not in all cases. It can sometimes mean that. Is there anyone whom God did not foreknow? Yet He does not have an intimate relationship with everyone.
 
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98cwitr

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All Christians still sin and yet they believe. So I don’t understand how our sinful nature can keep someone from believing.

Thoughts on 1 John 3:6-9 and 5:18 please. Also Hebrews 10:26
 
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renniks

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What is your answer? Do you believe, in this scenario, that God could save everyone if He desired?
God apparently desires real love more than forced obedience. He could save every one by force, but would that be loving?
 
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BNR32FAN

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1. Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. Wherefore he has also had a twofold experience, possessing knowledge of both kinds, that with discipline he may make choice of the better things. But how, if he had no knowledge of the contrary, could he have had instruction in that which is good? For there is thus a surer and an undoubted comprehension of matters submitted to us than the mere surmise arising from an opinion regarding them. For just as the tongue receives experience of sweet and bitter by means of tasting, and the eye discriminates between black and white by means of vision, and the ear recognises the distinctions of sounds by hearing; so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledgeof what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God. But if any one do shun the knowledge of both these kinds of things, and the twofold perception of knowledge, he unawares divests himself of the character of a human being.

2. How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that you, at the outset, should hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God. For you did not make God, but God you. If, then, you are God's workmanship, await the hand of your Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as you are concerned, whose creation is being carried out. Offer to Him your heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned you, having moisture in yourself, lest, by becoming hardened, you lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework you shall ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in you is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned your substance; He will cover you over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn you to such a degree, that even the King Himself shall have pleasure in your beauty. But if you, being obstinately hardened, reject the operation of His skill, and show yourself ungrateful towards Him, because you were created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, you have at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God but to be created is that of human nature. If then, you shall deliver up to Him what is yours, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, you shall receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God.


3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the cause of imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9but the man who does not obtain it is the causeto himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.


4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternalrest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39
 
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BNR32FAN

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Thoughts on 1 John 3:6-9 and 5:18 please. Also Hebrews 10:26

Children of God can become sons of disobedience. We are servants of the master whom which we serve. Either servants to obedience which leads to life or servants to disobedience which leads to death.

“Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:12-19‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice in Ephesians 5:1-6 Paul warns children of God of turning back to their sinful nature and receiving God’s wrath which results in losing their inheritance in the kingdom of God. Also see post 357 and see what the church taught as early as 170AD on this very subject.

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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BNR32FAN

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Paul was specifically chosen by God and yet he includes himself as being capable of denying Christ and Christ denying him resulting in the loss of his salvation.

“It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:11-13‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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Hazelelponi

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God apparently desires real love more than forced obedience. He could save every one by force, but would that be loving?

A feral cat had somehow found a way in and ended up in our basement in the dead of winter. She was cold and through an old fireplace she managed to make her way inside, but couldn't find her way back out.

It was dark, no light at all, and no food. eventually she found herself so hungry that her hunger overcame her fear of us, and one night when I was making salmon for dinner she began crying and meowing for help.

It took us some time, but we finally figured out the noise was coming from inside the house, from the basement door... and we stood back while my husband opened the basement door, not quite knowing what to expect..

When we opened the door she was afraid, and ran back to the darkness of the basement.. but I put some salmon on a plate and coaxed her into the main part of the house where we live..

She ate until she was full, she was a starved scrawny thing near death, and then found a place in a quiet corner and went to sleep after some time..

We went to walmart and got a litter box and some cat food and a few toys and random other things she would need, and she's lived with us ever since.

We were her first experience with humans, but she seemed at first like this was heaven. There was light up here, and warmth, and food in plenty, and people who loved her.

She wouldn't go outside for months because she seemed afraid we may not allow her back if she went to play, although in time that dissipated..

Here's the thing.. she didn't want to come up into the house at first. She'd been down there long enough we could see every bone in her body. It was a miracle she was even alive still..

We had to entice her, to get her into the house, but once she had the experience of it, of how wonderful it truly is, we couldn't get her back out.. she would literally hide under the bed at the very suggestion of her leaving to go out and play for a long time.

When God says here I Am, this I have for you is good, people don't want to leave God's presence once its been experienced - you couldn't force them out if you tried.

There are two calls that are experienced. 1) is the external call of the Gospel preached by human beings and 2) is the internal, effectual call of God which we see in places like Romans 8:30

The first call can be refused or misunderstood or, or, or as it's not a full experience of God, but God's internal effectual call is certain..

But there's no force involved, it's the starving man being given a plate of food they didn't know existed which, once tasted there's no force needed at all..

Just because God chooses doesn't mean the people he chose haven't also chosen Him in return. We love because He first loved us..

Jesus was a Rabbi, and it was typical of Rabbis and disciples in His day for prospective students to ask to disciple with a teacher of the law and then be told yes by the Rabbi if there was space.

A Rabbi going out and choosing his disciples was unheard of, yet Jesus did so. And its pointed out specifically more than once - You did not choose me, I chose you. John 15:16..

This is an important theme of the scriptures. God chooses in His perfect sovereignty, according to His good pleasure.

Why? Because God's children are children of the Spirit not children of the flesh, and this can only be proven out by God doing the choosing - because anything done in the flesh is of the flesh and God's promises must stand, His children are the children of promise therefore, not of works but of Him who calls.

God's people aren't forced into anything. What disciple of Jesus said man I'm tired of this slavery to discipleship.. ? None. They were happy to disciple.. It wasn't always easy, but if you asked any if they'd trade it for gold I'm certain they would laugh at you..
 
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BNR32FAN

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God apparently desires real love more than forced obedience. He could save every one by force, but would that be loving?

Would a forced or preprogrammed love be of any value to God? Could it even be called genuine love?
 
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renniks

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A feral cat had somehow found a way in and ended up in our basement in the dead of winter. She was cold and through an old fireplace she managed to make her way inside, but couldn't find her way back out.

It was dark, no light at all, and no food. eventually she found herself so hungry that her hunger overcame her fear of us, and one night when I was making salmon for dinner she began crying and meowing for help.

It took us some time, but we finally figured out the noise was coming from inside the house, from the basement door... and we stood back while my husband opened the basement door, not quite knowing what to expect..

When we opened the door she was afraid, and ran back to the darkness of the basement.. but I put some salmon on a plate and coaxed her into the main part of the house where we live..

She ate until she was full, she was a starved scrawny thing near death, and then found a place in a quiet corner and went to sleep after some time..

We went to walmart and got a litter box and some cat food and a few toys and random other things she would need, and she's lived with us ever since.

We were her first experience with humans, but she seemed at first like this was heaven. There was light up here, and warmth, and food in plenty, and people who loved her.

She wouldn't go outside for months because she seemed afraid we may not allow her back if she went to play, although in time that dissipated..

Here's the thing.. she didn't want to come up into the house at first. She'd been down there long enough we could see every bone in her body. It was a miracle she was even alive still..

We had to entice her, to get her into the house, but once she had the experience of it, of how wonderful it truly is, we couldn't get her back out.. she would literally hide under the bed at the very suggestion of her leaving to go out and play for a long time.

When God says here I Am, this I have for you is good, people don't want to leave God's presence once its been experienced - you couldn't force them out if you tried.

There are two calls that are experienced. 1) is the external call of the Gospel preached by human beings and 2) is the internal, effectual call of God which we see in places like Romans 8:30

The first call can be refused or misunderstood or, or, or as it's not a full experience of God, but God's internal effectual call is certain..

But there's no force involved, it's the starving man being given a plate of food they didn't know existed which, once tasted there's no force needed at all..

Just because God chooses doesn't mean the people he chose haven't also chosen Him in return. We love because He first loved us..

Jesus was a Rabbi, and it was typical of Rabbis and disciples in His day for prospective students to ask to disciple with a teacher of the law and then be told yes by the Rabbi if there was space.

A Rabbi going out and choosing his disciples was unheard of, yet Jesus did so. And its pointed out specifically more than once - You did not choose me, I chose you. John 15:16..

This is an important theme of the scriptures. God chooses in His perfect sovereignty, according to His good pleasure.

Why? Because God's children are children of the Spirit not children of the flesh, and this can only be proven out by God doing the choosing - because anything done in the flesh is of the flesh and God's promises must stand, His children are the children of promise therefore, not of works but of Him who calls.

God's people aren't forced into anything. What disciple of Jesus said man I'm tired of this slavery to discipleship.. ? None. They were happy to disciple.. It wasn't always easy, but if you asked any if they'd trade it for gold I'm certain they would laugh at you..

Sorry, not real life. In real life, people do get sick of following God when it seems that it only brings them misery. People do start to think their own way may have been better. Not every Christian's life is always full of God's presence and power, there are dry bones periods where one can doubt everything. First off, your analogy leads to the idea that people just follow him because he makes their lives better. Yes, Jesus told the disciples he chose them, and yet one of them was a devil and ended up in hell. Opps, doesn't fit the nice, tidy systematic theology that has been crafted by man....
 
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A_Thinker

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God's people aren't forced into anything. What disciple of Jesus said man I'm tired of this slavery to discipleship.. ? None. They were happy to disciple.. It wasn't always easy, but if you asked any if they'd trade it for gold I'm certain they would laugh at you..
Except for Judas ...
 
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