Islam Can Islam be distinguished from Arabs

[spirito]

The picture is quite an ambitious vision I must say. It is one reason that I prefer Muslims to Atheists that they are prepared to invest so much of their wealth towards the glory of God. Even the hotels are shaped like mini Qurans that would open towards the Kaaba. But then other civilisations have also been as zealous for God without having a clue about who He really is. Some people argue that the Saudis are investing in their revenue stream from Meccan pilgrimages here. Probably a shrewd policy given that the oil is bound to run out one day.

The Saudis do have a tradition of wiping out Christian history and revising archaeological finds and even pictures in the Kaaba according to their strict Wahabbi understandings. I understand they whitewashed a picture of Mary away for instance in the Kaaba. If a copy of the bible from the first century AD was ever found in Saudi Arabia they would probably burn it.

Why would you prefer the Saudis who are covering up history, which is nothing else but lying to atheists? I am atheist but at least I am honest. What they are doing is despicable to say the least I'd say.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Muslims don't know God. They don't worship God. The entire religion is predicated on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit..

While I'm not of a mind that the Saudi's are trying to cover up history perse, they are no better and potentially worse than the atheists because the people think they are worshipping God, but are under a strong delusion and aren't worshipping God at all..

The atheists just say they don't believe God exists.

 

[mindlight]

Why would you prefer the Saudis who are covering up history, which is nothing else but lying to atheists? I am atheist but at least I am honest. What they are doing is despicable to say the least I'd say.

Apparently this renovation is wiping out many of the key architectural contributions of the Ottomans to the Kaaba including 3 major mosques. A lot of thought and calligraphy went into the positioning of various columns and what was written on them. The Wahabis are basically iconoclasts as have been many Muslims (Caliph Umar is meant to have cleaned off the pictures of Jesus, Mary and Abraham that used to exist in the place for instance). We CAN make idols of things and blowing up statues of Buddha in Afghanistan and pagan temples in Syria is not as bad as tattooed Western neo Pagans like to make out. These statues and temples were an affront to God. With the whitewashing of the picture of Jesus the place had already lost all its charm anyway and I really do not care what the Saudis do with their money here. FUN FACT: Apparently the black meteor they are walking around was stolen for 2 decades in the tenth century. So the Kaaba has always been a place of change , of lots people trying to reach God but probably only a very few actually meeting him there.

In line with the actual thread here this is a good example of Arab authoritarianism. I am sure the non Arab Turks are probably quite offended by the liberties that the Saudis are taking with the buildings they invested so much love, devotion and money in.

Atheists look at ruins and preserve them for fear of losing the collective human memories contained in them, considering one set of memories no worse than another. It is a kind of archaeological moral relativism. But some buildings are just not worth preserving is the simple counter to that and their messages are better lost. A concern for Gods glory is better than preserving a pagan temple. I find Muslims purer because of their focus on God rather than the pantheon of fake superheroes and revived pagan deities from all around the world that are increasingly seeping into the fiction and media of the Western world as a sop for the empty selfishness and narcissism of most atheists lives. Atheism itself is a hopeless nothing in my view, a gooey mess, it stands for nothing and especially in its latest liberal form(s) with the emphasis on a liberal notion of freedom and materialism. Those who subscribe to atheism are only half people while Muslims are at least zealous for God and reaching out to Him even if blind to who He is.

 

[mindlight]

Muslims don't know God. They don't worship God. The entire religion is predicated on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit..

While I'm not of a mind that the Saudi's are trying to cover up history perse, they are no better and potentially worse than the atheists because the people think they are worshipping God, but are under a strong delusion and aren't worshipping God at all..

The atheists just say they don't believe God exists.

Both groups are delusional but I prefer people who are reaching out for God and discussing the things of God to those who are indifferent to Him or deny his existence. To live without reference to God is the biblical definition of a fool. Also Muslims are right about a lot of things they say about God e.g. Creator, Judge. Almighty Sovereign, that He will raise the dead etc.

 

[spirito]

Muslims don't know God. They don't worship God. The entire religion is predicated on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit..

While I'm not of a mind that the Saudi's are trying to cover up history perse, they are no better and potentially worse than the atheists because the people think they are worshipping God, but are under a strong delusion and aren't worshipping God at all..

The atheists just say they don't believe God exists.

Not only that, atheists don't touch the figure of God whatsoever, whereas muslims falsified the figure of Jesus and kind of "stole" it from Christianity by saying that Jesus was a muslim and a prophet of their God (which has nothing to do with the Christian God), or when they say that the trinity was formed by Jesus, God and Mary.

Clearly it all depends on the individual, there are venomous atheists (and I was one of them), but at least we don't corrupt Jesus.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Both groups are delusional but I prefer people who are reaching out for God and discussing the things of God to those who are indifferent to Him or deny his existence. To live without reference to God is the biblical definition of a fool. Also Muslims are right about a lot of things they say about God e.g. Creator, Judge. Almighty Sovereign, that He will raise the dead etc.

You understand they don't worship the Christian God right? And if they aren't worshipping the same God, how are they promoting the things of God?

Read Matthew 7:15-20

Again, the entire religion is predicated upon blasphemy of the Holy Spirit..

 

[Yytz6]

By Arabs about Arabs in Arabic, in an Arabic way.

I see.

 

[Yytz6]

when they say that the trinity was formed by Jesus, God and Mary.

They don't say that. Only ignorant Christians say they say that.

 

[Yytz6]

The picture is quite an ambitious vision I must say. It is one reason that I prefer Muslims to Atheists that they are prepared to invest so much of their wealth towards the glory of God. Even the hotels are shaped like mini Qurans that would open towards the Kaaba. But then other civilisations have also been as zealous for God without having a clue about who He really is. Some people argue that the Saudis are investing in their revenue stream from Meccan pilgrimages here. Probably a shrewd policy given that the oil is bound to run out one day.

The Saudis do have a tradition of wiping out Christian history and revising archaeological finds and even pictures in the Kaaba according to their strict Wahabbi understandings. I understand they whitewashed a picture of Mary away for instance in the Kaaba. If a copy of the bible from the first century AD was ever found in Saudi Arabia they would probably burn it.

No, they'd show everyone how you managed to make that even more corrupt from there.

 

[Yytz6]

Why would you prefer the Saudis who are covering up history, which is nothing else but lying to atheists? I am atheist but at least I am honest. What they are doing is despicable to say the least I'd say.

Repeating lies you have heard - even if you sincerely believe in them - is still lying if you haven't done your outmost to find out whether they're true or not.

 

[mindlight]

You understand they don't worship the Christian God right? And if they aren't worshipping the same God, how are they promoting the things of God?

Read Matthew 7:15-20

Again, the entire religion is predicated upon blasphemy of the Holy Spirit..

Muslims are wrong about Jesus , about Incarnation, Trinity, Redemption, the Virgin Birth, the Bible and a host of other things but their message is a lot better than many of the idolatries they displaced in Arabia and in Persia. I believe they do not know enough about the Holy Spirit to blaspheme him and the Christian Spirit is not addressed in the Quran. Some of the earliest words of Muhammad in Mecca while married to Khadija were actually quite beautiful and spiritually uplifting. The man was in practice an ignorant illiterate caravan manager with a penchant for marrying underaged girls using sex slaves, killing those who disagreed with him and war. But what he did and said transformed a people. There is a biblical promise to the children of Ishmael and I think in some convoluted way this Arab and the people he built were heirs to that promise. That does not make him right , does not mean that we should follow him but God used him to smash idolatries and to break the hold of a very self righteous and oppressive Byzantine Christian rulership that had turned the suffering church of Jesus and the apostles day into a persecuting and oppressing church. One Catholic Archbishop invited the Muslims to invade Egypt cause he was so fed up with the socalled Christian government of the Byzantines. The Jews also were given back a freedom that Christians had taken from them by the Muslims and which had only succeeded in making that dividing wall of hostility even higher.

But Islam today is not the liberating force that it was for many then and Arab authoritarianism today is an oppressive force at the heart of what is essentially an oppressive religion for more than a billion people.

 

[mindlight]

No, they'd show everyone how you managed to make that even more corrupt from there.

We have copies of the full Old Testament from before the time of Jesus and innumerable manuscripts affirming the authority of NT scripture from well before Islam began. We have human chain of witnesses affirming for example the gospel of John that takes us to the first fragments found. Polycarp for example saw John write the gospel and died some 30 years after the Ryland papyrus is dated. The Canon was settled long before Muhammad and the only reason he was completely ignorant of the books of the bible was because he had no reliable Christian source on which to draw on. He affirmed the authority of scripture in Islams core texts while contradicting them in many areas because he was ignorant of what they said and when later opportunities arose for him to learn what was in them he did not take them preferring instead the sound of his own voice which increasingly strayed from the truth and from the initial purity of his message.

 

[mindlight]

Not only that, atheists don't touch the figure of God whatsoever, whereas muslims falsified the figure of Jesus and kind of "stole" it from Christianity by saying that Jesus was a muslim and a prophet of their God (which has nothing to do with the Christian God), or when they say that the trinity was formed by Jesus, God and Mary.

Clearly it all depends on the individual, there are venomous atheists (and I was one of them), but at least we don't corrupt Jesus.

So atheists are better cause they ignore Jesus while Muslims are worse cause they blabber on about Him, respecting Him, but not really understanding Him at all.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Muslims are wrong about Jesus , about Incarnation, Trinity, Redemption, the Virgin Birth, the Bible and a host of other things but their message is a lot better than many of the idolatries they displaced in Arabia and in Persia. I believe they do not know enough about the Holy Spirit to blaspheme him and the Christian Spirit is not addressed in the Quran. Some of the earliest words of Muhammad in Mecca while married to Khadija were actually quite beautiful and spiritually uplifting. The man was in practice an ignorant illiterate caravan manager with a penchant for marrying underaged girls using sex slaves, killing those who disagreed with him and war. But what he did and said transformed a people. There is a biblical promise to the children of Ishmael and I think in some convoluted way this Arab and the people he built were heirs to that promise. That does not make him right , does not mean that we should follow him but God used him to smash idolatries and to break the hold of a very self righteous and oppressive Byzantine Christian rulership that had turned the suffering church of Jesus and the apostles day into a persecuting and oppressing church. One Catholic Archbishop invited the Muslims to invade Egypt cause he was so fed up with the socalled Christian government of the Byzantines. The Jews also were given back a freedom that Christians had taken from them by the Muslims and which had only succeeded in making that dividing wall of hostility even higher.

But Islam today is not the liberating force that it was for many then and Arab authoritarianism today is an oppressive force at the heart of what is essentially an oppressive religion for more than a billion people.

I've not read your whole post, I'm kind of stopping toward the top.

Mohammed's claim to "prophethood" is in the Bible, and applies only to the Holy Spirit according to all Christian belief, but Mohammed took that verse and applied that it to himself - that is his one claim to fame.. he says the Bible prophesied that he would come.

This claim is the Qur'an: (I have quoted the relevant portion of the ayat)

[Isa said] "indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad."

Surah As-Saf [61:6]

In the ahadith collection of “Sahih Muslim,” vol 4, #5810, Muhammad is reported to have said that his name was also Ahmad.

Jubair b. Mut'im reported on the authority of his father that he heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: I am Muhammad and I am Ahmad, …

The translator (Abdul Hamid Siddiqi) of Sahih Muslim notes that this is in reference to the 'Comforter' that Jesus spoke of...

And this is what Muslims, all Muslims claim. (I'd give ahadith but I'm not willing to play the isnad game) They claim the paraclete in the Bible is the prophet Mohammed. No one believes self described prophets - they have to have a claim or they won't be followed as a logical extension of an established religion, and this is what Islam is predicated upon, that the Holy Spirit is Mohammed.

That is blasphemy when you apply verses in the Bible that pertain to the Holy Spirit to yourself. It is the highest form of blasphemy possible.

This belief is so prevelant in Islam they've even put it in Wikipedia as one definition of paraclete

Paraclete - Wikipedia

Paraclete (Greek: παράκλητος, Latin: paracletus) means advocate or helper. In Christianity, the term "paraclete" most commonly refers to the Holy Spirit. In Islam, this term refers to Muhammad(Last Prophet of God). It is also described in the Quran as already present in Holy Bible.

These are not our misguided brothers following the same God.

 

[mindlight]

I've not read your whole post, I'm kind of stopping toward the top.

Mohammed's claim to "prophethood" is in the Bible, and applies only to the Holy Spirit according to all Christian belief, but Mohammed took that verse and applied that it to himself - that is his one claim to fame.. he says the Bible prophesied that he would come m.

This claim is the Qur'an: (I have quoted the relevant portion of the ayat)

[Isa said] "indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad."

Surah As-Saf [61:6]

In the Hadith collection of “Sahih Muslim,” vol 4, #5810, Muhammad is reported to have said that his name was also Ahmad.

Jubair b. Mut'im reported on the authority of his father that he heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: I am Muhammad and I am Ahmad, …

The translator (Abdul Hamid Siddiqi) of Sahih Muslim notes that this is in reference to the 'Comforter' that Jesus spoke of...

And this is what Muslims, all Muslims claim. That the paraclete in the Bible is the prophet Mohammed. No one believes self described prophets - they have to have a claim or they won't be followed as an extension of a religion, ajd this is what Islam is predicated upon, that the Holy Spirit is Mohammed.

That is blasphemy when you apply verses in the Bible that pertain to the Holy Spirit to yourself. It is the highest form of blasphemy possible.

They've even put it in Wikipedia as one definition of paraclete

Paraclete - Wikipedia

Paraclete (Greek: παράκλητος, Latin: paracletus) means advocate or helper. In Christianity, the term "paraclete" most commonly refers to the Holy Spirit. In Islam, this term refers to Muhammad(Last Prophet of God). It is also described in the Quran as already present in Holy Bible.

I think Muhammad was more ignorant than you give him credit for. He was definitely ignorant of Jesus. He never read the bible and never made that identification of himself with the paraclete though Muslims have subsequently done so. The text of the sura could be simplified, " Jesus said I was a prophet that would follow him". A self delusion he probably believed about himself but not one based on Christian sources at all, as there were none in his life of any reliability. Also we do not even know if Muhammad spoke that Sura or whether it was simply added by someone else who was attempting to make that link. Muhammad was a liar cause he allowed his wishful thinking to overpower his sense of reality and a false prophet who did not testify to Gods will at the last according to this sura but adding blasphemy of the Spirit to his sins seems unfair. He was too ignorant to understand that implication

 

[Hazelelponi]

I think Muhammad was more ignorant than you give him credit for. He was definitely ignorant of Jesus. He never read the bible and never made that identification of himself with the paraclete though Muslims have subsequently done so. The text of the sura could be simplified, " Jesus said I was a prophet that would follow him". A self delusion he probably believed about himself but not one based on Christian sources at all, as there were none in his life of any reliability. Also we do not even know if Muhammad spoke that Sura or whether it was simply added by someone else who was attempting to make that link. Muhammad was a liar cause he allowed his wishful thinking to overpower his sense of reality and a false prophet who did not testify to Gods will at the last according to this sura but adding blasphemy of the Spirit to his sins seems unfair. He was too ignorant to understand that implication

It's a warning, for everything Christianity is, Islam is the anti..

You see it however you like I guess but I know, because I've lived it.

 

[mindlight]

I've not read your whole post, I'm kind of stopping toward the top.

Mohammed's claim to "prophethood" is in the Bible, and applies only to the Holy Spirit according to all Christian belief, but Mohammed took that verse and applied that it to himself - that is his one claim to fame.. he says the Bible prophesied that he would come.

This claim is the Qur'an: (I have quoted the relevant portion of the ayat)

[Isa said] "indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad."

Surah As-Saf [61:6]

In the ahadith collection of “Sahih Muslim,” vol 4, #5810, Muhammad is reported to have said that his name was also Ahmad.

Jubair b. Mut'im reported on the authority of his father that he heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: I am Muhammad and I am Ahmad, …

The translator (Abdul Hamid Siddiqi) of Sahih Muslim notes that this is in reference to the 'Comforter' that Jesus spoke of...

And this is what Muslims, all Muslims claim. (I'd give ahadith but I'm not willing to play the isnad game) They claim the paraclete in the Bible is the prophet Mohammed. No one believes self described prophets - they have to have a claim or they won't be followed as a logical extension of an established religion, and this is what Islam is predicated upon, that the Holy Spirit is Mohammed.

That is blasphemy when you apply verses in the Bible that pertain to the Holy Spirit to yourself. It is the highest form of blasphemy possible.

This belief is so prevelant in Islam they've even put it in Wikipedia as one definition of paraclete

Paraclete - Wikipedia

Paraclete (Greek: παράκλητος, Latin: paracletus) means advocate or helper. In Christianity, the term "paraclete" most commonly refers to the Holy Spirit. In Islam, this term refers to Muhammad(Last Prophet of God). It is also described in the Quran as already present in Holy Bible.

These are not our misguided brothers following the same God.

Also if you charge all Muslims with blasphemy of the Holy Spirit then you remove all hope of their salvation. You might as well nuke the lot right now cause they are all dammed to he'll without hope of redemption, if what you say is true. I am not ready give up on 1.5 billion people so easily and regard that as Gods call not ours

 

[Yytz6]

He affirmed the authority of scripture in Islams core texts while contradicting them in many areas

What Scripture?

 

[Hazelelponi]

Also if you charge all Muslims with blasphemy of the Holy Spirit then you remove all hope of their salvation. You might as well nuke the lot right now cause they are all dammed to he'll without hope of redemption, if what you say is true. I am not ready give up on 1.5 billion people so easily and regard that as Gods call not ours

I said the entire religion is predicated upon blasphemy..(I'm fairly certain I was clear).. not that all Muslims blaphemed the Holy Spirit..

The religion is built upon a blasphemy though, and the religion itself is not of God, nor anything Godly.

 

[Yytz6]

and this is what Islam is predicated upon, that the Holy Spirit is Mohammed.

In Islam the Holy spirit is angel Gabriel.