If penal substitution is true, why do I have to ask for forgiveness?

[redleghunter]

God's grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4).

I agree. No one suggested such license.

We demonstrate our love for Christ by obeying Him.

 

[redleghunter]

You are going to have to be more specific about what you are getting at to prove your case that David was saved while he was in his sins. I am not out to prove your belief for you. Also, how do you explain the verses I brought forth that appears to refutes the idea that David was not saved while he was in his sins of adultery and murder?

Are you going to offer an answer to my question before introducing another “what if” idea?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I agree. No one suggested such license.

We demonstrate our love for Christ by obeying Him.

Do you believe a Christian is saved even when they lie, and or look upon a woman in lust?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Are you going to offer an answer to my question before introducing another “what if” idea?

I am not into guessing games that are really vague. You have to be more specific as to what you are talking about. Please provide some kind of Scripture passage or verse. I am not going to try and prove your belief for you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Are you going to offer an answer to my question before introducing another “what if” idea?

But you really did not explain the verses I initially brought forth that refutes the idea that we are saved by solely by the finished work of Christ. Are you not going to address those verses (Which was before your question)?

 

[redleghunter]

Do you believe a Christian is saved even when they lie, and or look upon a woman in lust?

Do you mean someone who is Justified by Christ and set apart (sanctified) sins Jesus takes back the Justification and eternal promise He already gave?

No I don’t. I also don’t believe this motivates one to sin at will. If it does it is evidence of a reprobate heart.

We are to live and walk in the Spirit and confess our sins before a Holy God. He saved us to be His workmanship in Christ for good works.

This is why I asked what happened with David before he repented (Psalm51)

Notice what he does say in his prayer:

12Restore to me the joy of Your salvation
And sustain me with a willing spirit.

 

[redleghunter]

I am not into guessing games that are really vague. You have to be more specific as to what you are talking about. Please provide some kind of Scripture passage or verse. I am not going to try and prove your belief for you.

It might be advisable to actually understand the entire account of the grave sins of David and what transpired.

Unfortunately, David did not immediately repent. God sent the prophet Nathan to convict David of his sin.

2 Samuel 12: NASB

1Then the LORD sent Nathan to David. And he came to him and said,
“There were two men in one city, the one rich and the other poor.

2“The rich man had a great many flocks and herds.

3“But the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb
Which he bought and nourished;
And it grew up together with him and his children.
It would eat of his bread and drink of his cup and lie in his bosom,
And was like a daughter to him.

4“Now a traveler came to the rich man,
And he was unwilling to take from his own flock or his own herd,
To prepare for the wayfarer who had come to him;
Rather he took the poor man’s ewe lamb and prepared it for the man who had come to him.”

5Then David’s anger burned greatly against the man, and he said to Nathan, “As the LORD lives, surely the man who has done this deserves to die. 6“He must make restitution for the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing and had no compassion.”

7Nathan then said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel, ‘It is I who anointed you king over Israel and it is I who delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8‘I also gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your care, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had beentoo little, I would have added to you many more things like these! 9‘Why have you despised the word of the LORD by doing evil in His sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the sons of Ammon. 10‘Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ 11“Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12‘Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun.’” 13Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has taken away your sin; you shall not die. 14“However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die.” 15So Nathan went to his house.

 

[zoidar]

Again, I think the best way is to look at it as a form of an analogy or parable. I think a person writing a check to pay off another person's debt is a great analogy here. The debt in one sense is paid because the person has provided a means to take care of their debt problem. The check is good. The debt is technically paid because they have a check in their hands to pay off their debt. But they need to take action to send the check to their creditors so as to receive the forgiveness of debt personally for their own lives. From the person offering the gift of paying off the other person's debt, in his mind, the other person's debts are paid because he provided a solution. But the one giving the gift does realize that the other person does have to apply the check personally to their lives in order for them to truly pay off their debt.

I have heard this before. But a check needs to be applied like you say, how can a paid penalty be needed to be applied? To me it seems if a penalty is paid you go free, no matter what you choose to do.

Ok... If the penalty of previous sins are paid, but not future sins. Then of course it's a different matter. But that's not really PS, or is it?

 

[zoidar]

I would like someone to tell a story of someone being sentenced for a crime, having the penalty paid, and then needed to put faith in it, repent or something alike to be set free. That would logically explain penal substitution.

 

[zoidar]

God desires to forgive sinners, but he cannot acquit their sin without compensation. It is via punishment of Jesus through which God forgives the sinner.

I don't know about you, but it sounds perfectly logical to me. I can recommend some links that may help you if you are still struggling.

It's kind of you to offer links, don't know if that would be of help though. Can it not be explained here, I don't think anyone else can either. Unless you have something really new about it.

 

[redleghunter]

I would like someone to tell a story of someone being sentenced for a crime, having the penalty paid, and then needed to put faith in it, repent or something alike to be set free. That would logically explain penal substitution.

That’s what happens when you let a human devised example try to explain God’s plan of Redemption.

 

[redleghunter]

It's kind of you to offer links, don't know if that would be of help though. Can it not be explained here, I don't think anyone else can either. Unless you have something really new about it.

Why did the Father send the Son?

 

[zoidar]

That’s what happens when you let a human devised example try to explain God’s plan of Redemption.

I can buy that someone believe in PS because the Bible teaches it. But to logically explain it seems impossible. Of course, like I said, everything doesn't have to be logical to be true.

 

[redleghunter]

But you really did not explain the verses I initially brought forth that refutes the idea that we are saved by solely by the finished work of Christ. Are you not going to address those verses (Which was before your question)?

The entire Bible is about God’s plan of Redemption from before the Foundations of the Earth. Your out of context verses can be stacked as high as the Tower of Babel and you won’t undo the fact Salvation is from God, Of God and Through God.

 

[redleghunter]

I can buy that someone believe in PS because the Bible teaches it. But to logically explain it seems impossible. Of course, like I said, everything doesn't have to be logical to be true.

I think quite a few have explained it. I think you just don’t like it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Do you mean someone who is Justified by Christ and set apart (sanctified) sins Jesus takes back the Justification and eternal promise He already gave?

No I don’t. I also don’t believe this motivates one to sin at will. If it does it is evidence of a reprobate heart.

We are to live and walk in the Spirit and confess our sins before a Holy God. He saved us to be His workmanship in Christ for good works.

This is why I asked what happened with David before he repented (Psalm51)

Notice what he does say in his prayer:

12Restore to me the joy of Your salvation
And sustain me with a willing spirit.

What does the life of a believer look like in this view?
Do they sin several times a day or only several times a week?
Why would Jesus warn us about how sin can destroy our soul in the after life if things are as you say? (See Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46). It seems kind of odd that Jesus would give us these kinds of new teachings just to have them radically change so quickly after the cross.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The entire Bible is about God’s plan of Redemption from before the Foundations of the Earth. Your out of context verses can be stacked as high as the Tower of Babel and you won’t undo the fact Salvation is from God, Of God and Through God.

Just saying the verses I quote are out of context does not prove that they are quoted out of context. You need to actually show how they are taken out of context in order to prove that you are correct here.

 

[zoidar]

Why did the Father send the Son?

To cast out Satan, by overcoming the sin of the world and forgive the sin of every person that repents.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It might be advisable to actually understand the entire account of the grave sins of David and what transpired.

Unfortunately, David did not immediately repent. God sent the prophet Nathan to convict David of his sin.

2 Samuel 12: NASB

1Then the LORD sent Nathan to David. And he came to him and said,
“There were two men in one city, the one rich and the other poor.

2“The rich man had a great many flocks and herds.

3“But the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb
Which he bought and nourished;
And it grew up together with him and his children.
It would eat of his bread and drink of his cup and lie in his bosom,
And was like a daughter to him.

4“Now a traveler came to the rich man,
And he was unwilling to take from his own flock or his own herd,
To prepare for the wayfarer who had come to him;
Rather he took the poor man’s ewe lamb and prepared it for the man who had come to him.”

5Then David’s anger burned greatly against the man, and he said to Nathan, “As the LORD lives, surely the man who has done this deserves to die. 6“He must make restitution for the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing and had no compassion.”

7Nathan then said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel, ‘It is I who anointed you king over Israel and it is I who delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8‘I also gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your care, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had beentoo little, I would have added to you many more things like these! 9‘Why have you despised the word of the LORD by doing evil in His sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the sons of Ammon. 10‘Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ 11“Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12‘Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun.’” 13Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has taken away your sin; you shall not die. 14“However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die.” 15So Nathan went to his house.

Not my first time reading the Bible. You are not telling me anything new, and I fail to see how this helps prove that a believer can sin and still be saved by having a belief in the finished work of Christ.

 

[zoidar]

I think quite a few have explained it. I think you just don’t like it.

Actually I have most of my time as a Christian taken PS as something unquestionable. Last year or so I discovered that there actually are other explanations, that to me makes more sense. I would like to believe in PS, if it makes sense. There is a comfort in it, I know.

If someone paid my penalty, it's paid and I'm free. Why do I need to add faith to a fact? Why do I have to receive that my punishment has been erased? It's been paid, done, erased from God's memory... "Receive it by faith". Ok, if I don't is it not still paid? Do I have to suffer again, what Christ allready suffered for and paid for me?