Matt. 25:46 Everlasting Punishment

[Saint Steven]

because it's contrasted with "everlasting life" whatever we do to one, we must do to the other

I think that's a valid point.

And as one raised in the church and having heard all my life about eternal life as the gift of God, it is taking some adjustment to wrap my head around the gift of God being life age-during. But it must be, if the punishment is age-during. I guess there will be something new at the end of each age. Probably preferable to the-same-old, same-old forever. - lol

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Dear Maria: I am afraid that my miniscule mind declares nada!

Your very first comment on # 1 falls far short.

There is no such animal as "everlasting torment"!

Search = "everlasting torment"

Your search query has yielded no results.

Please modify your query & try again

I agree there are at least four views of hell.

 

[FineLinen]

I agree there are at least four views of hell.

Dear Maria: The passage under consideration is speaking of aionios kolasis/ everlasting punishment. It is not speaking of the "four views of hell" or hell in any shape or form.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Dear Maria: The passage under consideration is speaking of aionios kolasis/ everlasting punishment. It is not speaking of the "four views of hell" or hell in any shape or form.

I believe that would be hell.
Blessings

 

[Jonaitis]

Questions

1. Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?

No, it is recompense for what it due. We sinned against an absolutely holy God. The insult rises to the worth and dignity of the one offended. The punishment equals to the weight of the crime. It is no little thing to commit treason against the I AM, the God who created all that exists.

2. As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21)

God's essence is goodness. It is not an acquired virtue of his, it is who he is.

3. Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?

Actually, the infliction of God's Son on the cross was divine goodness overcoming evil in the greatest way possible.

4. If God hates the sinner, does the sinner do wrong in hating Him?

God hates the sinner, not just for what he does, but for what he is. Sinful man is the very antithesis of who God loves, he is seen as abominable in his eyes, and the Law reveals it. God does hate his sin, but where does it come from? His heart. His thoughts. His natural self. It is the source of all the wickedness, and it is that which God hates. However, God loved us while we were still his enemies by sending Jesus Christ to suffer the just wrath that was against us.

5. Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17)

No.

6. If God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them?

God doesn't love all of his enemies, only those whom he saves.

7. Is it just for God to be "kind to the evil and unthankful," in their present life? (Luke 6:35)

It isn't just, it is undeserving.

8. Would it be unjust for God to be kind to all men in a future state?

God has every right to show undeserved kindness to any man whom he desires.

 

[FineLinen]

Questions

1. Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?

No, it is recompense for what it due. We sinned against an absolutely holy God. The insult rises to the worth and dignity of the one offended. The punishment equals to the weight of the crime. It is no little thing to commit treason against the I AM, the God who created all that exists.

Dear Jonaitis: NONSENSE! You did no such thing! You are a dirty rotten sinner by birth, NOT by any choice of your own. We will now review the equation again>>>

Many = many

Polus= polus

Many "made sinners">>>Many "made righteous".

"For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Jonaitis: NONSENSE! You did no such thing! You are a dirty rotten sinner by birth, NOT by any choice of your own. We will now review the equation again>>>

Many = many

Polus= polus

Many "made sinners">>>Many "made righteous".

Furthermore: God our Father is indeed good. He is good all the time. Goodness, however is not His essence but a lovely quality indeed!

God IS Love/ Spirit/Light/ Reconciliation & Saviour

"For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

 

[FineLinen]

 

[Oldmantook]

This question from the OP really captured my attention.

If endless punishment is the wages of sin, did Jesus somehow pay this for those of us who are saved? I don't see how.

If a "lost" person was allowed to choose between paying the same price Jesus paid, or eternal torment, which do we suppose they would choose? Why are the so-called "lost" required to pay a price seemingly greater than their sin?

If the atonement was sufficient, why would something GREATER be required of those not covered by it? Is that just?

No it is not just, by any plain sense of the word justice. However, there are those who repeat the familiar mantra that sins against an infinite God require infinite punishment. Baloney. One could just as easily claim that sins against any infinite God require infinite mercy. God is quite capable of exercising both justice and mercy. To pit one against the other is to engage in the fallacy of a false dilemma. 1 Jn 2:2 is quite instructive: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” This verse appears to be universal in scope and application. This verse is in agreement with God's stated goal in Col 1:20 "and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace by the blood of His cross through Him, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens."
Since the goal of the Father is to reconcile all things to himself, the sins of the whole world will eventually be forgiven through ages of time as God works out his plan of redemption. The ECT model of punishment in the LOF where those are said to be tortured forever certainly does not result in reconciliation to God.

Perhaps a pertinent question to ask is punishment the same thing as justice? We would both agree that being condemned to the lake of fire qualifies as punishment but does it meet the demands of justice? For example, a rapist could rape a woman. He claims he is innocent and is not repentant for his crime but is found guilty and sentenced to prison. We would agree that the rapist is being punished but the rape victim will have to live with the consequences of what happened to her for the rest of her life. Is that justice as the victim has life-long consequences through no fault of her own? Suppose yet that a child was conceived and born as a result of the rape and the mother now has the responsibility to raise the child on her own while the perpetrator does nothing but sit in jail. Is that justice? Based on this example, it can be argued that there is a difference between punishment and justice as the former does not always meet the demands of the latter. The pertinent question to consider then is how can punishment also meet the demands of justice in this case? I would submit that the answer demands that the perpetrator of the crime has to willingly agree to make amends and seek reconciliation with his victim. He needs to admit guilt, seek forgiveness and make recompense for his crime - perhaps some sort of ongoing financial obligation/support when he leaves prison and hopefully gets a job. The point is justice is only accomplished when the perpetrator participates in making amends toward the one he is guilty of offending.

I believe this human scenario approximates the picture of how God deals with us justly for our sins against Him. There is Biblical precedent for this view of punishment/justice throughout the scriptures. For example Ex 22:1 states: "If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and kills it or sells it, he shall repay five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep." In the NT, Zacchaeus promises Jesus that he will restore fourfold those whom he has defrauded. These instances exemplify that justice demands not just the aspect of punishment but also recompense in order to make amends and fully bring about God's justice.

Given this scriptural evidence, we can apply this to the concept of an eternal hell. Being condemned to eternal punishment in the lake of fire certainly constitutes as punishment but it does not bring about God's justice because the inhabitants in the lake of fire have no opportunity to admit their guilt, seek forgiveness and seek to make recompense as it is "already too late." They must suffer the consequence of their sin forever. There is no chance for amends and reconciliation with God and therein lies the weakness with the retributive eternal punishment of hell. The view of the lake of fire that is most consistent with the scriptures and the character of God is the view where the lake of fire is for the purpose of chastisement where sinners recognize their sin against God, repent and seek forgiveness from the Lamb. Of course they, like all of us cannot repay their debt against God except that they believe in the sacrificial atonement of Jesus to make recompense for their sin. Like the rapist example it requires willing participation on their part as guilty sinners before a holy God. This reconciliation model of the lake of fire requires that the sinners must endure the purifying fires of hell in order that they may seek reconciliation with the Lamb who is also present in the lake of fire (Rev 14:10) so that one day God's ultimate goal of reconciliation is achieved. "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross" (Col 1:19-20) which results in "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2:10-11).

Reconciliation with God is impossible with the eternal conscious torment view of hell as well as with the annihilation view of hell as those in the lake of fire are never reconciled to God.

 

[DamianWarS]

In fact Damian, aionios zoe is in the realm of quality, not simply duration. Guess what? Aionios kolasis is also a quality of punishment by the Father of all fathers!

This IS aionios zoe that we may know You...

zoen aionion (ζωὴν αἰώνιον) = life eternal
kolasin aionion (κόλασιν αἰώνιον) = punishment eternal

both "aionion" are ajectives modifying their head nouns (life & punishment). whatever concept we apply to this as a description of life we must also apply it as a description of punishment (qualitative, quantitative, etc..). this doesn't conclusively mean that punishment and life are mirrored in terms of their eternality (or their "aionios") as all of scripture needs to be responsibly looked at to get a bigger picture but in a vacuum, according to this text, life/punishment are contrasted using the same adjectives and in this text they should be treated the same.

 

[DamianWarS]

I think that's a valid point.

And as one raised in the church and having heard all my life about eternal life as the gift of God, it is taking some adjustment to wrap my head around the gift of God being life age-during. But it must be, if the punishment is age-during. I guess there will be something new at the end of each age. Probably preferable to the-same-old, same-old forever. - lol

this is of course in a vacuum according to Matt 25:46 and my remarks are not to meant to trump the rest of the scripture. a responsible perspective will of course use all of scripture to get a bigger picture understanding of what scripture says. I believe scripture presents to us various tensions regarding this topic that can't be immediately explained or reconciled using an isolated passage like this.

 

[Oldmantook]

this is of course in a vacuum according to Matt 25:46 and my remarks are not to meant to trump the rest of the scripture. a responsible perspective will of course use all of scripture to get a bigger picture understanding of what scripture says. I believe scripture presents to us various tensions regarding this topic that can't be immediately explained using an isolated passage like this.

The noun aion means "age." Aionion, aionios, etc. are its adjectival forms meaning pertaining to the age, age-during etc. To translate such adjectives as eternal, forever, etc. would be to attribute a totally foreign and opposite meaning to the noun which it modifies. In Matt 25:46 in particular the sheep enter into zoen aionion while the goats enter into kolasin aionion. Again, this cannot mean eternal life and eternal punishment because this particular judgment references the Millennial age which is of course limited in duration - not eternal. Thus the sheep enter into age-during 1,000 year life while the goats likewise enter into age-during 1,000 years punishment.

 

[ChicanaRose]

2. As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21)

You can't use the same measure you use for human beings on God. He is sinless.
Eternal punishment is what people bring upon themselves by rejecting God's mercy until death.
It's part of the exercise of free will.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Damnation in a nutshell:

1. Only God is good and the source of all that is good. His nature, design and Word are good.

2. When we reject and rebel against God, His nature, design and Word, as we all continuously do, we reject and rebel against what is good. Consequently, we're evil. When we sin against God, we're in effect crowning ourselves our own "lords". This is a terrible evil, far greater than what we can comprehend and worthy of a most severe punishment. The fact that we are unable to grasp how evil sin is, is a testament to how evil we are - for evil seems good, and good seems evil to us. If we ever think of God as too harsh or unfair in His judgment, it's most definitely a sure sign of our own evil.

3. It is in line with God's good and righteous nature to punish all evil. If God didn't punish evil, He wouldn't be good and righteous. God promises in His Word to punish all evil, and His Word is true.

4. Damnation is an eternal separation from God - separation from that which is good - which is why it's immeasurably severe and painful. Scriptures illustrate this as everlasting shame and torment of body and soul; a second death, gnashing of teeth, lake of fire etc

So rather than twisting God's Word as Unitarians do when teaching that man is too good to be eternally damned, and Universalists do when maintaining that God is too good to damn man eternally, or as the Atheists do when insisting there is no hell, instead understand:

(A) How severe sin is that it merits such a severe consequence.

(B) How great a suffering Christ endured, who took upon himself the sin of the whole world, receiving the full wrath of God not only for one person but for all, throughout all times and places. For our sake God made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

(C) How mighty Christ is, who endured God's full wrath, and how merciful He is, who bought us with His own blood. Because of the person and works of Christ, we are declared righteous in God's sight.

This is what makes the cross - the Gospel - so great because it testifies to God's righteous judgment of sin, His mercy and lovingkindness for giving us Christ, His only Son, the burden of epic proportions that Christ had to bear, and the incomprehensible glory and might of Christ to overcome death, sin and hell.

If we have a low view of God's Law, we'll have a low view of sin. If we have a low view of sin, we'll have a low view of the Gospel. This is why it's so important to the Christian faith to understand God's Law and Gospel in their full sense.

 

[INeedGrace]

From my reading of scripture, they both exist at the same time. God is merciful and patient, not wishing that any should perish, AND His justice demands punitive action, in this case, eternal punishment for those who refuse His provision for salvation.

Universalism sounds so nice, but you would have to eliminate man's free will in order for your thinking to be correct. God's mercy is available to all who will choose it, but Jesus said that many choose the wide road that leads to destruction.

But what about babies, young children and the mentally retarded? They get a "free pass" without having to exercise their free will.

 

[FineLinen]

zoen aionion (ζωὴν αἰώνιον) = life eternal
kolasin aionion (κόλασιν αἰώνιον) = punishment eternal

both "aionion" are ajectives modifying their head nouns (life & punishment). whatever concept we apply to this as a description of life we must also apply it as a description of punishment (qualitative, quantitative, etc..). this doesn't conclusively mean that punishment and life are mirrored in terms of their eternality (or their "aionios") as all of scripture needs to be responsibly looked at to get a bigger picture but in a vacuum, according to this text, life/punishment are contrasted using the same adjectives and in this text they should be treated the same.

Yup! Aionios= Aionios= aionios.

Your next question=

Does aionios = aidios?

 

[FineLinen]

You can't use the same measure you use for human beings on God. He is sinless.
Eternal punishment is what people bring upon themselves by rejecting God's mercy until death.
It's part of the exercise of free will.

Dear Chicana: God is the standard by which and thru which ALL is measured!

Two questions for you?

1. Did you listen to the hornet song?

2. If mankind was born in Adam 1, how did they become sinners outside of genetic disposition?

 

[FineLinen]

But what about babies, young children and the mentally retarded? They get a "free pass" without having to exercise their free will.

Dear INeed: Bingo!!

 

[FineLinen]

Damnation in a nutshell:

1. Only God is good and the source of all that is good. His nature, design and Word are good.

2. When we reject and rebel against God, His nature, design and Word, as we all continuously do, we reject and rebel against what is good. Consequently, we're evil. When we sin against God, we're in effect crowning ourselves our own "lords". This is a terrible evil, far greater than what we can comprehend and worthy of a most severe punishment. The fact that we are unable to grasp how evil sin is, is a testament to how evil we are - for evil seems good, and good seems evil to us. If we ever think of God as too harsh or unfair in His judgment, it's most definitely a sure sign of our own evil.

3. It is in line with God's good and righteous nature to punish all evil. If God didn't punish evil, He wouldn't be good and righteous. God promises in His Word to punish all evil, and His Word is true.

4. Damnation is an eternal separation from God - separation from that which is good - which is why it's immeasurably severe and painful. Scriptures illustrate this as everlasting shame and torment of body and soul; a second death, gnashing of teeth, lake of fire etc

So rather than twisting God's Word as Unitarians do when teaching that man is too good to be eternally damned, and Universalists do when maintaining that God is too good to damn man eternally, or as the Atheists do when insisting there is no hell, instead understand:

(A) How severe sin is that it merits such a severe consequence.

(B) How great a suffering Christ endured, who took upon himself the sin of the whole world, receiving the full wrath of God not only for one person but for all, throughout all times and places. For our sake God made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

(C) How mighty Christ is, who endured God's full wrath, and how merciful He is, who bought us with His own blood. Because of the person and works of Christ, we are declared righteous in God's sight.

This is what makes the cross - the Gospel - so great because it testifies to God's righteous judgment of sin, His mercy and lovingkindness for giving us Christ, His only Son, the burden of epic proportions that Christ had to bear, and the incomprehensible glory and might of Christ to overcome death, sin and hell.

If we have a low view of God's Law, we'll have a low view of sin. If we have a low view of sin, we'll have a low view of the Gospel. This is why it's so important to the Christian faith to understand God's Law and Gospel in their full sense.

Dear Daniel9: You post in #4>>>>

"Damnation is an eternal separation from God - separation from that which is good - which is why it's immeasurably severe and painful. Scriptures illustrate this as everlasting shame and torment of body and soul; a second death, gnashing of teeth, lake of fire etc"

Your questions=

1. What is damnation/ ktisis?

2. How does aidios separation compare to aionios punishment?

3. Why have you not defined the 5 foundational standards for the Master's words in St. Matt. regarding aionios kolasis? Why?

Reminder

This is NOT a Lake of Fire thread! Begin a new link for us and we shall join you.

 

[DamianWarS]

The noun aion means "age." Aionion, aionios, etc. are its adjectival forms meaning pertaining to the age, age-during etc. To translate such adjectives as eternal, forever, etc. would be to attribute a totally foreign and opposite meaning to the noun which it modifies. In Matt 25:46 in particular the sheep enter into zoen aionion while the goats enter into kolasin aionion. Again, this cannot mean eternal life and eternal punishment because this particular judgment references the Millennial age which is of course limited in duration - not eternal. Thus the sheep enter into age-during 1,000 year life while the goats likewise enter into age-during 1,000 years punishment.

I'm not offering a interpretation just the means to correct interpretation. Yes I know I used the word "eternal" but my intent was not to define the word, I just picked a word used in a translation. So whatever this word means (which I am leaving undefined), it is used to describe both punishment and life.