How Free Will Turns the Gospel into Law and Grace into Works.

Neogaia777

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If that is true the unrighteous are not responsible for their sin.

So how do they deserve destruction?

It's not about being deserving or not deserving, the Father God made/makes some for one purpose, and then others, for other purposes, and works them all together in what is His will for both them and us, etc... The bad ones maybe having the purpose or growing and bringing about the good ones, etc... Maybe, etc... Or some are only purposed for here, or forever here, or only for being in realities like these or this one forever... and then some others, hopefully us, for a much more, or many much more better and higher reality/realities than this one here that we are currently in, etc...

How can someone sin if they have no choice in how they act?

They can't, not really, but the Father God makes some for one purpose, and then some others, for others, etc...

How can someone reject the gospel if it is not in their power to do it?

They can't, not really, but the Father God makes some for one purpose, and then some others, for others, etc...

Also, a fruit of the spirit is self-control?

That they will never get to have or get, if the Father didn't already know and mean for them to have or get them, in the very first place, etc...

When someone is urged in the bible to choose life, is that just lies or mockery of those who are condemned?

I told you it is a perspective or point of view, and that we cannot ever act or function as if we don't have a choice or our own free will in the matter or matters, etc, that we are forced to act as if we do, and must act as if we do, etc, cause there is no other way, etc...

Why do those who are saved get a reward?

Because the Father created for them to have or get those rewards as "free gifts" according to the way He made them, etc...

How can someone persevere without doing the persevering?

It's so funny that so many think that by my saying this, that we don't have to at least try or struggle at all, or choose at all, cause that's not what I'm saying at all... I'm just saying that the Heavenly Father already knows all the choices we will make or have to make, or will make in those struggles already, etc... and even made us to make the choices in our struggles that we do, etc... and did it, or knew about it all fully from the very beginning, and caused them from the very beginning, ect, and knows fully all the what's involved in what causes us to make the choices that we do etc, and knew this from the very beginning, etc, predicted and foreknew/foreknows it all, ect...

When did you last sin? Was it you who sinned? Why ask for forgiveness when you weren't the one who made yourself sin? If you aren't the one who made you do it, then who did?

God knows when and if I am going to sin or choose not to sin, or do away with or put away some of my sins, etc, or some for good in my life, etc, but, "I don't"... so, I still have to act and behave and conduct myself as if I still had and/or made the choices in those matters, even if it does turn out that I really didn't, or do not, or we do not, not really, etc... I still have to act and behave as if I do, and we do, etc...

The mind boggles.

Not really.

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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If that is true the unrighteous are not responsible for their sin.

So how do they deserve destruction?

How can someone sin if they have no choice in how they act?

How can someone reject the gospel if it is not in their power to do it?

Also, a fruit of the spirit is self-control?

When someone is urged in the bible to choose life, is that just lies or mockery of those who are condemned?

Why do those who are saved get a reward?

How can someone persevere without doing the persevering?

When did you last sin? Was it you who sinned? Why ask for forgiveness when you weren't the one who made yourself sin? If you aren't the one who made you do it, then who did?

The mind boggles.
Are you going to tell the Heavenly Father that He cannot make some bad, for the ultimate good of the good, and that only temporarily at that...? (The bad ones being among the good ones) (temporarily, etc) (for the ultimate good of the good ones, etc)...

Your going to tell Him that...? or tell Him He can't do that, or question what He is doing or His goodness and holiness, because of that, etc...?

You really gonna do that...?

God Bless!
 
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Sam91

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It's not about being deserving or not deserving, the Father God made/makes some for one purpose, and then others, for other purposes, and works them all together in what is His will for both them and us, etc... The bad ones maybe having the purpose or growing and bringing about the good ones, etc... Maybe, etc... Or some are only purposed for here, or forever here, or only for being in realities like these or this one forever... and then some others, hopefully us, for a much more, or many much more better and higher reality/realities than this one her that we are currently in, etc...



They can't, not really, but the Father God makes some for one purpose, and then some others, for others, etc...



They can't, not really, but the Father God makes some for one purpose, and then some others, for others, etc...



That they will never get to have or get, if the Father didn't already know and mean for them to have or get them, in the very first place, etc...



I told you it is a perspective or point of view, and that we cannot ever act or function as if we don't have a choice or our own free will in the matter or matters, etc, that we are forced to act as if we do, and must act as if we do, etc, cause there is no other way, etc...



Because the Father created for them to have or get those rewards as "free gifts" according to the way He made them, etc...



It's so funny that so many think that by my saying this, that we don't have to at least try or struggle at all, or choose at all, cause that's not what I'm saying at all... I'm just saying that the Heavenly Father already knows all the choices we will make or have to make, or will make in those struggles already, etc... and even made us to make the choices in our struggles that we do, etc... and did it, or knew about it all fully from the very beginning, and caused them from the very beginning, ect, and knows fully all the what's involved in what causes us to make the choices that we do etc, and knew this from the very beginning, etc, predicted and foreknew/foreknows it all, ect...



God knows when and if I am going to sin or choose not to sin, or do away with or put away some of my sins, etc, or some for good in my life, etc, but, "I don't"... so, I still have to act and behave and conduct myself as if I still had and/or made the choices in those matters, even if it does turn out that I really didn't, or do not, or we do not, not really, etc... I still have to act and behave as if I do, and we do, etc...



Not really.

God Bless!
But in your reply you mentioned choices (regarding perseverence). You can not make a choice if you do not have free will. You are only an automaton programmed to do what was planned.

Actually, I very much doubt this is fruitful, for either of us.

I'm going to bow out now because I normally stay away from asking pointless questions. They only waste the time of the responder. I apologise for asking you those, I dislike it when people do it to me. I'm sorry.

God bless you brother.
 
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Dave L

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All the world is subject to the prince of the power of the air(the devil), according to Yahuweh's Word,
even the remnant, before they are saved.

How is that "free will", anywhere ?
Are people free to obey law or do all constantly drive 100 mph? Free will doesn't work with salvation because the gospel is not law but grace.
 
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Dave L

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Not.

If someone runs a red light, they get a ticket, they get fined, they might lose their license or end up in jail.

Regardless of their ability to obey or disobey it.

If any man takes(kills) a life on purpose, then their life is required of them. God doesn't offer excuses or exemptions , does He ?
You are missing the point.
 
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Dave L

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Not at all. Paul himself said that Christ became eternal salvation to those who obey. People have this mistaken idea that there are no laws today because they impose their own ideas on the Scriptures. God Himself said through Jeremiah that in the new covenant He would write His laws on their hearts.

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jer. 31:31-33 KJV)
= salvation by hypocrisy = acting like a believer to become one. People who choose to believe don't really believe. If they did, they wouldn't need to force themselves to.
 
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bling

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“for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13 (ESV)

“No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.” 1 John 3:9–10 (NASB95)
Good scripture quotes but does not answer the question: Now that you are a Christian do you make a free will choice not to obey God or does God make that choice for you?
 
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Dave L

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Good scripture quotes but does not answer the question: Now that you are a Christian do you make a free will choice not to obey God or does God make that choice for you?
Because of the new birth you hate sin and love righteousness and choose accordingly.
 
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Stephen Douglas

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This discussion will have absolutely no end if there is no definition of terms and even then it is unlikely. What is required to make any decision? What are the fundamentals behind making any choice? What are the mechanics behind making any decision?

There are many who view the doctrine of election as unjust because there are evidently many who are NOT chosen. This view disregards the inequity among people as far as nurture and the individual ability to make choices and to a greater extent the individual predisposition to make certain choices. To say that all men have the equal measure of ability to accept Christ as their Savior is to ignore the reality of life. Some folks choose to live as homeless people. Some folks choose to dedicate their entire lives to gaining material wealth and fame. Other folks choose to be hostile to their fellow man while some choose a life of altruism. Why does anyone make any particular choice at any given moment? Biological science says that each person is mentally hardwired to make determined choices. Sociological science says that each choice is conditionally predetermined by the experiences within the first seven years of life. What does God say? Might there be a new covenant that grants "free" choice to everyone based on their physical hardwiring or conditional experiences? No, the desire of the heart will be altered by God. God Himself will write His law into each heart that He has chosen (Jeremiah 31:33). "Love the Lord with all of your heart and soul and mind and strength" will not sound like an impossibility because it is God who will intervene within the heart of the elect to work and to will according to God's purpose (Philippians 2:13).

The genetic engineering within any person's brain is unique to that person and God knows it. The nurturing and conditioning that any particular person experiences has great bearing on any decision made at any particular moment, and God knows it. If God does NOT interfere and disrupt any predisposed condition of the desire of man, if left to some sort of "free will" of the fallen......then that process is an extremely unjust process.

Think about it. Was it possible that Christ would have died in vain? Was it possible that, left to the free will of man (assuming that any man has that ability), that the powerful Roman army would have instilled such fear into the 1st century followers that all would retreat into unbelief? Or did God, for all time and eternity, choose His own by creating a transforming desire within the hearts of His elect?

Sure, it is within the realm of possibilities that God "foresaw" who would commit themselves unto death and sent His Son at just the right time to make certain that the faith would live on in the hearts of man well into the twenty first century but I have seen no scripture passage that implies that. What I see is that it was only those that God "foreknew" (not foresaw) that were predestined to be conformed into the likeness of the Son.

What makes this confusing is a conflation between the terms "foresaw" and "foreknew". There is much reference of God's special "knowing" or lack of, in scripture. "Depart from me for I never KNEW you" (Matthew 7:23) certainly doesn't imply that Christ had no awareness of the evil doer! Biblical knowing infers some measure of intimacy as Jeremiah 1:5 states. And then, Adam knew his wife (Genesis 4:1) is certainly describing a condition of intense intimacy.

To think that God doesn't love His elect enough to intercede in their personal space and give them a new heart is disheartening to me. However, if that is the way it is I must accept it but it does disrupt the vision that I have of a loving God. Others seem to embrace this idea with joy. Above all we need to pray for each other.

Doug
 
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bling

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It seems that you place much emphasis on the "honorable" and "dishonorable" portion of that passage. These terms are relating to Hebrews and Gentiles in this passage. The whole chapter is dealing with God's sovereign will to work out redemption for both Gentiles and Jews. Evidently the Jews didn't like that the potter had chosen to form vessels of destruction in order to make known His vessels of mercy>> which includes only those whom have been called by God, both Jews and Gentiles. Romans 9:22-26. The context here is crystal clear. It is God who chooses and the vessel has no right to complain because without the potter it would simply be nothing but a lump. I didn't say it. Paul did. The lump has absolutely no will much less "free will". It is formed by the potter to reach the desires of the potter. The developed lump has the free will to be thankful that it was formed into anything of use. There is certainly no utility in searching through other passages looking for the meaning of "honorable" or "dishonorable" in this passage. Paul lays it all out there as he does throughout this entire chapter that deals exclusively with God's sovereignty to make choices in spite of man's inability to approve or understand, which is exactly what is being discussed in this subject matter.
I fully agree the clay lump has no free will choice in the matter the same as the Jews and the Gentiles have no choice if they are born Jew or gentile, but did it really matter than and does it matter today?

I have not met mean who do realize the honorable (special) and dishonorable (common) represent the Jews and the Gentiles. Paul whole letter to the Roman Christians is addressing the apparent split in the church in Rome between the Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians, especially Ro. 9-11.

Ro. 9 is all about showing God’s fairness/justice with Jews and Gentiles even though the Jews seem to have been given a huge head start.

The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 “What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!”

Since Paul is using a diatribe style of writing (a debate with an imaginary person and not a lecture) the imaginary adversary always goes first with support for the wrong answer, so we will have lots of support showing why God is seemingly not just especially with the deference between the Jews and gentiles.

Why would the Jews be upset with unchosen people going to destruction, since they have been proud all their lives over being the chosen?

You think the Jews would have a “problem” thinking they were made for a very special purpose?

No potter in the first century would be making clay pigeons and they would not leave the shop with his mark on them, so it is not God the Potter intentionally making in His shop objects for destruction, all the pots left for good use (special or common), but after leaving God “bore with great patience”, but what objects are these and how did they get to be “the objects of His wrath”. We know some born gentile and Jews (common and special) will wind up in hell, but that is not the Potter’s fault. If they become damaged beyond repair, they are unworthy of the Potter’s mark. Paul in 2 Tim. 2;20 tells us the vessels can change themselves over time.
If God sets a bar of salvation to reach and to sustain, we are saved by never ending works. If God as the potter forms each according to His will (not our will) then some will be formed as vessels of destruction and others as vessels of mercy. Our carnality does not like that because it doesn't seem fair. Paul is addressing this situation in Romans 9. It is there for all to read.

Doug
There are only two different pots being discussed leaving the potter’s shop: honor and dishonor being a poor translation of the way Paul uses these words which can be seen in 2 Tim. 2: 20, so special and common would be a better description and that would be the case for all first century potters. As you pointed out special would fit Jews and common would fit Gentiles, so are one of these vessels made for destruction, since nothing like that would leave the potter’s shop.
 
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Halbhh

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“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself.”
And He said to him,

“You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”


Question: has anyone made the free willed choice to do that?
Of course.

We are commanded to love God with all of our (various) ability.

Your own unique level of ability. Not more than you have, of course.

This might help (I hope it will, brother) --

41 And he sat down opposite the treasury and watched the people putting money into the offering box. Many rich people put in large sums. 42 And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which make a penny. 43 And he called his disciples to him and said to them, “Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the offering box. 44 For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on.”


See?

But she put all she had in God. Any of us can give our whole heart, at moments.

Why would you hold back? Give the 2 pennies, or the silver piece of all the love you have. Why hold back?
 
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Stephen Douglas

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I fully agree the clay lump has no free will choice in the matter the same as the Jews and the Gentiles have no choice if they are born Jew or gentile, but did it really matter than and does it matter today?

I have not met mean who do realize the honorable (special) and dishonorable (common) represent the Jews and the Gentiles. Paul whole letter to the Roman Christians is addressing the apparent split in the church in Rome between the Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians, especially Ro. 9-11.

Ro. 9 is all about showing God’s fairness/justice with Jews and Gentiles even though the Jews seem to have been given a huge head start.

The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 “What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!”

Since Paul is using a diatribe style of writing (a debate with an imaginary person and not a lecture) the imaginary adversary always goes first with support for the wrong answer, so we will have lots of support showing why God is seemingly not just especially with the deference between the Jews and gentiles.

Why would the Jews be upset with unchosen people going to destruction, since they have been proud all their lives over being the chosen?

You think the Jews would have a “problem” thinking they were made for a very special purpose?

No potter in the first century would be making clay pigeons and they would not leave the shop with his mark on them, so it is not God the Potter intentionally making in His shop objects for destruction, all the pots left for good use (special or common), but after leaving God “bore with great patience”, but what objects are these and how did they get to be “the objects of His wrath”. We know some born gentile and Jews (common and special) will wind up in hell, but that is not the Potter’s fault. If they become damaged beyond repair, they are unworthy of the Potter’s mark. Paul in 2 Tim. 2;20 tells us the vessels can change themselves over time.

There are only two different pots being discussed leaving the potter’s shop: honor and dishonor being a poor translation of the way Paul uses these words which can be seen in 2 Tim. 2: 20, so special and common would be a better description and that would be the case for all first century potters. As you pointed out special would fit Jews and common would fit Gentiles, so are one of these vessels made for destruction, since nothing like that would leave the potter’s shop.

I think that although the general subject matter of this 9th chapter of Romans was concerning the Jewish rejection of the Messiah, it conveys much more than that to all of us today. If you read this with a narrow view as if God doesn't willfully change the hearts of men to conform with His determinism as He did with Pharaoh then that is on you. There is absolutely no way that I can receive the message within these passages to reference the House of Israel only.

Sorry,

Doug
 
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Stephen Douglas

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Of course.

We are commanded to love God with all of our (various) ability.

Your own unique level of ability. Not more than you have, of course.

This might help (I hope it will, brother) --

41 And he sat down opposite the treasury and watched the people putting money into the offering box. Many rich people put in large sums. 42 And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which make a penny. 43 And he called his disciples to him and said to them, “Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the offering box. 44 For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on.”


See?

But she put all she had in God. Any of us can give our whole heart, at moments.

Why would you hold back? Give the 2 pennies, or the silver piece of all the love you have. Why hold back?

So, it is your view that men can make their individual best attempt at performing acts of goodness and that alone is enough to please God? Even in reference to all that Romans 8 has to say about the subject (not to mention Romans 5,6,7)?
 
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Halbhh

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So, it is your view that men can make their individual best attempt at performing acts of goodness and that alone is enough to please God? Even in reference to all that Romans 8 has to say about the subject (not to mention Romans 5,6,7)?
Of course not!

Instead, as before (such as above in post #510), and always:

1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2 ESV

Every sentence. Right?

I believe every sentence. We are saved only by Grace, alone, and nothing else, and that only if we have faith, alone, and not any other condition. Is that clear? Please ask questions if it isn't.


And then saved, by Grace alone, through faith alone, we are then to do the good works -- of love -- that God has prepared for us to do. Is this clear what I believe? I want you to get clear what I believe before you ask more questions, so that you'd be talking with me, and not to some idea about some other person accidentally ascribed wrongly to me. :)

Now -- you. Should any of us hold back from loving God with all of our heart?
 
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Dave L

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How can some Christians "choose" (that is your word) to sin or can they not sin?
“No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.” 1 John 3:9–10 (NASB95)
 
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Stephen Douglas

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Of course not!

Instead, as before (such as above in post #510), and always:

1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2 ESV

Every sentence. Right?

I believe every sentence. We are saved only by Grace, alone, and nothing else, and that only if we have faith, alone, and not any other condition. Is that clear? Please ask questions if it isn't.


And then saved, by Grace alone, through faith alone, we are then to do the good works -- of love -- that God has prepared for us to do. Is this clear what I believe? I want you to get clear what I believe before you ask more questions, so that you'd be talking with me, and not to some idea about some other person accidentally ascribed wrongly to me. :)

Now -- you. Should any of us hold back from loving God with all of our heart?

Should we hold back? Is that your question? Should we hold back from loving our neighbor as ourselves? The answer is: it depends on who is the "we" that you are talking about? Those who have been gifted by the indwelling of the Spirit of Righteousness should not hold back this same Spirit that guides us into righteousness. Those who have not been gifted with this Spirit have no ability, no capability to love God or to love neighbor. It doesn't really matter whether they hold back or not. Their attempts will be as futile as Paul's expression of helplessness in Romans 7:21-25. Thus, Jesus giving an example to the challenging Pharisee of what loving your neighbor looks like. Then says Jesus "do this and you shall live".

Who is it that loves a stranger as much as he loves self? Who is it that would tend to a stranger's wounds and put him up for three months in a motel and leave a deposit with the motel operator until the good Samaritan's return from a trip? Does this sound natural to you? Does this sound possible to you?

We, who have been empowered by the Spirit, have an obligation to live by the Spirit. Those who have not the Spirit have no ability inclined toward goodness and absolutely no ability to please God. I didn't make this up. It is clearly stated within the entire 8th chapter of Paul's letter to the Romans.

How do you see it?

Doug
 
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Halbhh

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Should we hold back? Is that your question? Should we hold back from loving our neighbor as ourselves? The answer is: it depends on who is the "we" that you are talking about? Those who have been gifted by the indwelling of the Spirit of Righteousness should not hold back this same Spirit that guides us into righteousness. Those who have not been gifted with this Spirit have no ability, no capability to love God or to love neighbor. It doesn't really matter whether they hold back or not. Their attempts will be as futile as Paul's expression of helplessness in Romans 7:21-25. Thus, Jesus giving an example to the challenging Pharisee of what loving your neighbor looks like. Then says Jesus "do this and you shall live".

Who is it that loves a stranger as much as he loves self? Who is it that would tend to a stranger's wounds and put him up for three months in a motel and leave a deposit with the motel operator until the good Samaritan's return from a trip? Does this sound natural to you? Does this sound possible to you?

We, who have been empowered by the Spirit, have an obligation to live by the Spirit. Those who have not the Spirit have no ability inclined toward goodness and absolutely no ability to please God. I didn't make this up. It is clearly stated within the entire 8th chapter of Paul's letter to the Romans.

How do you see it?

Doug

How do I see it? Well, just like you largely, but I also realize that as individuals, we can't help but have an individual level of understanding also, so that we each understand only in our own unique way, even while we could agree on many things. Here's a very interesting question: "Who is it that would tend to a stranger's wounds and put him up for three months in a motel and leave a deposit with the motel operator until the good Samaritan's return from a trip? Does this sound natural to you? Does this sound possible to you?" -- I simply trust the story. While not many would do as the good Samaritan did, some would, just as the story shows. And here, we know this story is told before calvary. But it's true, nevertheless. Some would do as the good Samaritan. There's nothing at all wrong in my view though if you say such individuals only can solely by grace (aka -- help from above, aid, blessing, Spirit). That also makes sense, and it's indeed part of the message of Romans 8, or even better, fuller, more helpful yet, of John chapter 15. Consider even more of the big picture: we are created by God, and also we are individually spirits/souls from God, which He knew before even our conceptions as bodies. (Jeremiah chapter 1). Whatever we can ever do, is from Him in that big picture way. We were (as humans) initially, originally in the Garden with Him, in that state of communion, and through Christ, we are returned to that state of communion. We can say many more things, but basically -- walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh. :)
 
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bling

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I think that although the general subject matter of this 9th chapter of Romans was concerning the Jewish rejection of the Messiah, it conveys much more than that to all of us today. If you read this with a narrow view as if God doesn't willfully change the hearts of men to conform with His determinism as He did with Pharaoh then that is on you. There is absolutely no way that I can receive the message within these passages to reference the House of Israel only.

Sorry,

Doug
Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.


The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!


This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).


Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?


If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?


This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.


Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”


Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual (this “letter” is written to Christians and not non-Christians)?


Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?


Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in first century Rome?


Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?


The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).


How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.


Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.


Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!


The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.


If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potter’s signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Important to note is the fact: the dishonorable vessel can cleanse themselves and become vessels of honor.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.
 
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Stephen Douglas

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How do I see it? Well, just like you largely, but I also realize that as individuals, we can't help but have an individual level of understanding also, so that we each understand only in our own unique way, even while we could agree on many things. Here's a very interesting question: "Who is it that would tend to a stranger's wounds and put him up for three months in a motel and leave a deposit with the motel operator until the good Samaritan's return from a trip? Does this sound natural to you? Does this sound possible to you?" -- I simply trust the story. While not many would do as the good Samaritan did, some would, just as the story shows. And here, we know this story is told before calvary. But it's true, nevertheless. Some would do as the good Samaritan. There's nothing at all wrong in my view though if you say such individuals only can solely by grace (aka -- help from above, aid, blessing, Spirit). That also makes sense, and it's indeed part of the message of Romans 8, or even better, fuller, more helpful yet, of John chapter 15. Consider even more of the big picture: we are created by God, and also we are individually spirits/souls from God, which He knew before even our conceptions as bodies. (Jeremiah chapter 1). Whatever we can ever do, is from Him in that big picture way. We were (as humans) initially, originally in the Garden with Him, in that state of communion, and through Christ, we are returned to that state of communion. We can say many more things, but basically -- walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh. :)

The question being bantered around here within this thread is if there is a "free will" choice, made by those who are dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2), that can legitimately be made to walk in the Spirit. There are just too many scripture passages to mention that explicitly declare that those who have not been changed by the Spirit are enslaved to sin. The question is: enslaved in what way? To what degree are they enslaved? Can they break away from their enslavement just enough to make a righteous choice? Or not?

This discussion should really be broken down into a question of pre-converted ability to make free will choices and then the question of whether converted people are capable of making free will choices. We have been bouncing back and forth and it tends to get confusing.

Doug
 
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