How Free Will Turns the Gospel into Law and Grace into Works.

bling

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Absolutely.

So...how about have a look:

Jeremiah 19:5 They have built high places to Baal on which to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal--something I never commanded or mentioned, nor did it ever enter My mind.

"nor did it enter my mind"

Now, a person having fully read through all the books of the Old Testament (a good way to get some context, right?) will be able to recall (especially if they really paid attention as they read) this one:

Deuteronomy 12:31 You must not worship the LORD your God in this way, because they practice for their gods every abomination which the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.

Or in the English Standard Version
You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the LORD hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.


Which is indeed earlier in time.... so.... It did definitely enter God's mind that it was possible for Israel to do the great evil of child sacrifice....

Definitely, as a absolute certainty.

There's some context, yes?

But....

He says: Jeremiah 19:5 They have built high places to Baal on which to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal--something I never commanded or mentioned, nor did it ever enter My mind.

So, what's the meaning you hear in Jer 19:5 then? -- regarding whether God foresaw this instance of this particular evil (burning children in fire, an 'abomination' labeled "even", marking it above most or all others) being done at that moment by Israel?

He did already commanded they not do it.

I take it then that Jer 19:5 implies exactly what it sounds like at first glance -- He did not anticipate they would do this particular great evil at this moment in time.

But, He definitely anticipated they might do this evil at some point in time -- unknown as to if and when -- and commanded them not to do it.

A point of view not just a speculative idea, but instead from reading scripture, and using context.
Sorry for taking so long to get back with you:

Jer. 19:5 is interesting put it first could be explained as a hyperbole, since he goes on to say: 8 I will devastate this city and make it an object of horror and scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will scoff because of all its wounds. 9 I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another’s flesh because their enemies will press the siege so hard against them to destroy them.

Second: When did “nor did it ever enter My mind”, this “horror” first enters the mind of God at some point, since the Jews worked up to this abomination over time?

There is a “before time began” period where individuals were not considered yet, but a general plan was in God’s mind and in that general plan this horror of God’s chosen people, may not have been considered as a real option.

Once human time begins God can know as pure history all human future historic events.
 
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Halbhh

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Sorry for taking so long to get back with you:

Jer. 19:5 is interesting put it first could be explained as a hyperbole, since he goes on to say: 8 I will devastate this city and make it an object of horror and scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will scoff because of all its wounds. 9 I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another’s flesh because their enemies will press the siege so hard against them to destroy them.

Second: When did “nor did it ever enter My mind”, this “horror” first enters the mind of God at some point, since the Jews worked up to this abomination over time?

There is a “before time began” period where individuals were not considered yet, but a general plan was in God’s mind and in that general plan this horror of God’s chosen people, may not have been considered as a real option.

Once human time begins God can know as pure history all human future historic events.

Is that last sentence you write your view/theory, in summary? It seems to me that possibly though you might be assuming it as you go along in reasoning (instead of considering a variety of theories all the time, to see which works better) -- or assuming it too often; this is only a guess, and I could be reading your post wrong that way. I think this idea of total predestination ( that 'predestination' is individual and pre-seen, thus utterly fixed ahead of time, so that 'predestination' is not simply that whoever would believe can be saved, this path of salvation being planned for all ahead of time) -- that this total individual predestination theory could fit much scripture, but will not fit well some parts.

The other theory, which I'm suggesting (though I don't know if I laid it out in this thread yet), fits better, because it fits more scripture with less assumptions (such as assuming hyperboles (though of course hyperbole does happen at times). It's not especially important I think what theory you have...unless you are talking to a seeker, a lost person, who is being blocked from seeking God further by the (I think wrong idea) that God has already foreordained who will be saved and who will not, a common idea I think clearly contradicts the gospels, and also blocks some seekers. That's when it becomes a problem, when presented to the lost and it blocks some. The lost need to hear only the saving Good News, the Word of Christ, the only thing that could save them.
 
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bling

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Is that last sentence you write your view/theory, in summary? It seems to me that possibly though you might be assuming it as you go along in reasoning (instead of considering a variety of theories all the time, to see which works better) -- or assuming it too often; this is only a guess, and I could be reading your post wrong that way. I think this idea of total predestination ( that 'predestination' is individual and pre-seen, thus utterly fixed ahead of time, so that 'predestination' is not simply that whoever would believe can be saved, this path of salvation being planned for all ahead of time) -- that this total individual predestination theory could fit much scripture, but will not fit well some parts.

The other theory, which I'm suggesting (though I don't know if I laid it out in this thread yet), fits better, because it fits more scripture with less assumptions (such as assuming hyperboles (though of course hyperbole does happen at times). It's not especially important I think what theory you have...unless you are talking to a seeker, a lost person, who is being blocked from seeking God further by the (I think wrong idea) that God has already foreordained who will be saved and who will not, a common idea I think clearly contradicts the gospels, and also blocks some seekers. That's when it becomes a problem, when presented to the lost and it blocks some. The lost need to hear only the saving Good News, the Word of Christ, the only thing that could save them.
“Once human time begins God can know as pure history all human future historic events.”

The assumptions which this “theory” is based on is the following:


God is totally fair, just, and Loving (which most might agree with).

If a choice is only known by God before the choice is made (so in God’s future) than it will have to happen the way God knows it will happen, so there would be no free will choices. God will be controlling the choice.

All mature adults have an objective which will require at least one autonomous free will choice to complete.

Time for the last 100 years now has been scientifically consistently been shown to be relative and that is in our physical corner of the universe, so the question is not if time is set or not, but how relative is it?

If time is relative than there is no reason for God to be limited to man’s time.

God does know in detail information about man’s future actions, God can with Jer. 18 change His actions if the person or people change, but if God says the person or persons will do something in the future than they will do it and they do due it. This suggests God knows the future perfectly, so how could that be and man have free will? (Jesus did not present Peter’s future actions as being contingent).

Most people do not have a problem with God being outside of time and can even accept the idea of God being in two of man’s time periods at the same time.
 
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Stephen Douglas

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Ah, when asking a lot of different Christians the same question, and getting a very similar response, it's very likely that response is correct.

And better, it's correct with absolute certainty when it's scripture!

:) Nice to meet you.
Hal

My pleasure!

I do not concur with your assessment that receiving a vague or elusive response from a Christian group should be sufficient. It actually requires more than intellect to grasp some truths. It requires the courage to look at things freshly and without a predisposition that embraces a certain dogma. In my view, an infinitesimal measure of Christians will exhibit such courage.

Doug
 
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Halbhh

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My pleasure!

I do not concur with your assessment that receiving a vague or elusive response from a Christian group should be sufficient. It actually requires more than intellect to grasp some truths. It requires the courage to look at things freshly and without a predisposition that embraces a certain dogma. In my view, an infinitesimal measure of Christians will exhibit such courage.

Doug
Amen. I've said precisely this exact message, perhaps 50-100 times here, if you count every form :) Or probably over 200 if you count the key message that we need to truly listen to scripture, reading fully through, without trying to use it to fit a doctrine, but being silent in our minds and truly listening, and open to learn from Him, where he is the Teacher, and we are the ones listening (instead of talking over Him in our minds).
 
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Stephen Douglas

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Amen. I've said precisely this exact message, perhaps 50-100 times here, if you count every form :) Or probably over 200 if you count the key message that we need to truly listen to scripture, reading fully through, without trying to use it to fit a doctrine, but being silent in our minds and truly listening, and open to learn from Him, where he is the Teacher, and we are the ones listening (instead of talking over Him in our minds).

Ok, maybe it takes the employ of scripture to receive an effective response in this venue. A simple and direct question isn’t cutting it.

Luke 10:25-28

Jesus was being challenged to provide an answer to which commandment was greatest to which Jesus flipped the question back to the Pharisee. The response was:

“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself.”
And He said to him,

“You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”


Question: has anyone made the free willed choice to do that?

If so; what happened? Had anyone the ability to do this there would be no need for Christ in their lives. Why has there been no one who is good? Why is it no one who seeks God? Not even one? (Romans 3:9-12) And there is an expectation that among this group of hopelessly and totally unrighteousness humanity that someone would somehow develop the capability to make a free will choosing to turn all of life over to an invisible God?

Evidently, there are some that believe that Jesus was instructing this Pharisee to do something that he was fully capable of doing. There are some that believe that all men are capable of choosing righteously. My question to these people is a simple and direct one.

“What special attribute would some people possess that would allow and equip them to believe and commit to the Savior while others do not?”

The answer cannot have to do with a measure of internal pride or stubbornness because there must be a reason that one man would have a greater measure of pride than another man. How much is too much?

If all of nature is under the curse of sinfulness, how does any component of God’s creation make a willful choice to lovingly submit to the Creator? Doesn’t this reality create a paradox to the notion of “free will”?
Or do we simply ignore this paradox as if it doesn’t exist because the notion of God imposing His determination upon His creation doesn’t sit well with our sense of personal liberty?

Maybe someone will muster the courage to explain.

Doug
 
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Neogaia777

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Ok, maybe it takes the employ of scripture to receive an effective response in this venue. A simple and direct question isn’t cutting it.

Luke 10:25-28

Jesus was being challenged to provide an answer to which commandment was greatest to which Jesus flipped the question back to the Pharisee. The response was:

“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself.”
And He said to him,

“You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”


Question: has anyone made the free willed choice to do that?

If so; what happened? Had anyone the ability to do this there would be no need for Christ in their lives. Why has there been no one who is good? Why is it no one who seeks God? Not even one? (Romans 3:9-12) And there is an expectation that among this group of hopelessly and totally unrighteousness humanity that someone would somehow develop the capability to make a free will choosing to turn all of life over to an invisible God?

Evidently, there are some that believe that Jesus was instructing this Pharisee to do something that he was fully capable of doing. There are some that believe that all men are capable of choosing righteously. My question to these people is a simple and direct one.

“What special attribute would some people possess that would allow and equip them to believe and commit to the Savior while others do not?”

The answer cannot have to do with a measure of internal pride or stubbornness because there must be a reason that one man would have a greater measure of pride than another man. How much is too much?

If all of nature is under the curse of sinfulness, how does any component of God’s creation make a willful choice to lovingly submit to the Creator? Doesn’t this reality create a paradox to the notion of “free will”?
Or do we simply ignore this paradox as if it doesn’t exist because the notion of God imposing His determination upon His creation doesn’t sit well with our sense of personal liberty?

Maybe someone will muster the courage to explain.

Doug
The only special attribute one would have to have is the Father God's having (already) chose them or not chose them from before the foundations of the world, (and/or from before the very beginnings of time, and creation, etc) and not one thing other than that...

Otherwise, you did something to earn or get it... And in some small measure, you saved yourself...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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The only special attribute one would have to have is the Father God's having (already) chose them or not chose them from before the foundations of the world, (and/or from before the very beginnings of time, and creation, etc) and not one thing other than that...

Otherwise, you did something to earn or get it... And in some small measure, you saved yourself...

God Bless!
His choosing, based on how He (already) made them, long, long, long ago as well...

God Bless!
 
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Stephen Douglas

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The only special attribute one would have to have is the Father God's having (already) chose them or not chose them from before the foundations of the world, (and/or from before the very beginnings of time, and creation, etc) and not one thing other than that...

Otherwise, you did something to earn or get it... And in some small measure, you saved yourself...

God Bless!

What else could it be?

Doug
 
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Sam91

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(I've made it so far as page 24... I'd appreciate it if you guys could all slow down on the posting side so I can finally catch up tomorrow! :D ... bit optimistic of me, I guess :p)
Oooo thank you so much!!
 
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Jan001

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I’m not sure how that relates to my post. I never claimed that God forces man to do evil.

The godly man listens to the Holy Spirit and obeys him, but God does not force any man to do good.
 
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Jan001

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Let me stop you right here. That is you reading into the text. And if it’s foresaw, then the rest of the passage makes no sense.


Foresaw is one of the human ways of explaining something that God knew beforehand....He foresaw in his mind's eye every action that a man would take from his birth to his death. God actually just knows everything about everybody. God does not actually have to think like man does. God just knows. He is all-knowing.
 
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Hammster

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Foresaw is one of the human ways of explaining something that God knew beforehand....He foresaw in his mind's eye every action that a man would take from his birth to his death. God actually just knows everything about everybody. God does not actually have to think like man does. God just knows. He is all-knowing.
Well, you were equating “foreknew” and “foresaw”. They are not the same thing.
 
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Sam91

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God gave man freewill at creation. He planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and evil in the Garden. Adam had the choice to obey God. He was warned of the consequence of disobeying.

Throughout the whole Bible, we have 100's of examples where people choose to obey or disobey. If there was no free will there could not be rebellion and disobedience. If you'd like to have many examples in quick sucession read 1 and 2 Kings, and 1 and 2 Chronicles back to back.

It seems very convenient to listen to people who teach that there is no free will. The logical consequences of that are blasphemes that I am unwilling to type and dismiss at first thought. God is good! He is Holy!

Justices demands that people who will be punished are actually guilty of their sins. To be guilty they have to have the choice and chance to pursue righteousness. God gives that chance. He prepares the soil, draws people to Him. Unfortunately, those who love evil shrink from the light. It is those who refuse Him. Those who love themselves and the short term pleasures of the flesh more than the chance of freedom and the love of God.

I've been thinking today of the Father's mercy. He managed to save my own dear brother in the months leading to his unexpected death. My brother was an unlikely candidate to give his life to Christ, but God knew and arranged it. My brother saw it as his own choice, but God gave Him the choice and drew him in. He gives the same choice to all, the Bible says we have no excuse.
 

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Sam91

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Infact, my eldest son became a Christian about this time 3 years ago. He, however loved himself more and forsook God.

He decided within days that kids at school would bully him. He chose the flesh. My son, a year later, told me about telling his friends that God is real. He confirmed to me that he has seen and knows that God is real. So he believes there is a God but is serving himself. I can only hope that God, in His mercy, brings my son to that choice again.

Peter, although knowing Jesus, having walked with Him for three years and having been warned about it still denied Christ. It was by choice (in that moment he was worried about himself instwad of trusting in Him) or there would be know point it being in the Bible. Thankfully, we are given hope through it that we all stumble, even those with good soil. It shows God's forgiveness and what He can still do even using non-perfect people.

If we had no free will, we could not sin, we would have no need of a saviour. However, we know we disobey God. We sin and can not be righteous without Jesus' having paid for our transgressions.

If everything was prearranged and we blindly did what we were programmed to do, the Bible would be very different. There'd be no choices in it. It would be a testimony of who God is, without the warnings. Perhaps it may include a list of traits of who is going to have eternal life and who is going to be judged. It might say how each are to live their lives but there would not need to be encouragement to do so because we would do it without there being a danger of acting against how we are preordained to act.
 
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