How is Salvation, or anything you get from God, a "free gift" if our own will got it for us...?

[Neogaia777]

K!
No need for sorry, just trying to help.

Thanks, hey, i learned something new today, really didn't know i was doing it or using it wrong, thanks.

God Bless!

 

[Guojing]

How is Salvation, or anything you/me/we get or receive from God a "free gift" if our own will in any way got it or gets it for us...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

This is one of the thoughts I have with Romans 5:12-19.

It seems that Adam's free gift is so powerful that all his descendants did not need to do anything, and yet all of them automatically inherit the sinful nature.

But Jesus's free gift of imputed righteousness need Adam's descendants to receive it by a choice they make, which is to believe. It is not as automatic as Adam's free gift of a sinful nature.

Seen in this way, it does seem slightly asymmetric, although I have no problems rejecting Calvinism.

 

[greenguzzi]

I'm not arguing it's worth, I'm arguing the fact that if our choice determined it, then it isn't 100% free.

OK, let me try another way to make my point:
Let's say my boat just sank. I can't swim very well, and I was stupid enough not to wear a life jacket.
Then this large ship comes by. But because it's a large ship, it can't come close. Someone on the ship throws out a raft attached to the ship by a rope.
It takes a lot out of me to swim to the raft, but I make it and am saved and pulled on board.
Who gets the credit for my rescue? Is it me for taking all that effort to get the the raft? Or is it the crew of the ship who did what they could to save me?
Am I going to charge the crew of the ship for all the effort I used to get to the raft? If your answer is "yes", then salvation is not free. If "no" then salvation is free.
QED

 

[Neogaia777]

This is one of the thoughts I have with Romans 5:12-19.

It seems that Adam's free gift is so powerful that all his descendants did not need to do anything, and yet all of them automatically inherit the sinful nature.

But Jesus's free gift of imputed righteousness need Adam's descendants to receive it by a choice they make, which is to believe. It is not as automatic as Adam's free gift of a sinful nature.

Seen in this way, it does seem slightly asymmetric, although I have no problems rejecting Calvinism.

I'm just saying that there is such a One that already knows/knew and predetermined that choice, that really does seem like an actual real choice, way, way, way ahead of time going all the way back to the very beginning or from even before the very beginning of it all, is all, etc.

God Blessd

 

[Neogaia777]

OK, let me try another way to make my point:
Let's say my boat just sank. I can't swim very well, and I was stupid enough not to wear a life jacket.
Then this large ship comes by. But because it's a large ship, it can't come close. Someone on the ship throws out a raft attached to the ship by a rope.
It takes a lot out of me to swim to the raft, but I make it and am saved and pulled on board.
Who gets the credit for my rescue? Is it me for taking all that effort to get the the raft? Or is it the crew of the ship who did what they could to save me?
Am I going to charge the crew of the ship for all the effort I used to get to the raft? If your answer is "yes", then salvation is not free. If "no" then salvation is free.
QED

The real true credit would go to the One who arranged all of it and both parties choices and decisions during it, and that led up to it, and before what all led up to it, and before that, etc, going way, way back, and all the way back, etc, so that you could be saved or so that you would choose to, well, "save yourself" in this case, and in this situation, and that "arranged" the large boat to be where it was, when it was, etc, and for the people in the large boat to see or notice you, etc, and arranged for them to choose to toss the raft out to you, etc...

Anyway, the credit and/or blame also would go to that One, etc.

God Bless!

 

[greenguzzi]

Anyway, the credit and/or blame also would go to that One, etc.

Ah, I think I get where you are coming from. God is omnipotent, therefore free will is an illusion. Am I right? If so then this is almost the opposite of your original position in this thread.

 

[Neogaia777]

The real true credit would go to the One who arranged all of it and both parties choices and decisions during it, and that led up to it, and before what all led up to it, and before that, etc, going way, way back, and all the way back, etc, so that you could be saved or so that you would choose to, well, "save yourself" in this case, and in this situation, and that "arranged" the large boat to be where it was, when it was, etc, and for the people in the large boat to see or notice you, etc, and arranged for them to choose to toss the raft out to you, etc...

Anyway, the credit and/or blame also would go to that One, etc.

God Bless!

The real problem or trouble with this however is, that the very One who got you out of trouble or whatever (or arranged for you to be saved or save yourself or whatever) (or made a way out or arranged a way out or whatever) (or caused both you and them to choose or make the choices that you both did or whatever) (that determined how, where, when you both would be at that or those times or whatever) anyway, the real problem is that, "that One", would also be the same or very same One who got you into it in the first place...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

If so then this is almost the opposite of your original position in this thread.

Not really, the free gift cannot really be a free gift if it is dependent on our choosing or whatever...?

That God chooses who is saved or not saved or not, and not us, etc, and that we are not really responsible for ourselves, etc, or anything we have or get or don't get, etc...

That the choices that we make, aren't really choices that we made or make, etc... Not really, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Guojing]

I'm just saying that there is such a One that already knows/knew and predetermined that choice, that really does seem like an actual real choice, way, way, way ahead of time going all the way back to the very beginning or from even before the very beginning of it all, is all, etc.

God Blessd

But you do agree that none of Adam's descendants had any choice at all about the gift of the sinful nature correct? They have to receive it, no matter what.

Does that make Adam more powerful than Jesus, which obviously none of us would accept here right?

 

[greenguzzi]

That the choices that we make, aren't really choices that we made or make, etc... Not really, etc...

Maybe.
Unless we all get saved, anyway.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

And all can be restored, not based upon our choosing or choice, but God's, right...?

God Bless!

Yes and God can also harden a heart.

We need to be careful so as
not to get to that point.

All need to.
Repent -- while there is still time.

M-Bob

 

[greenguzzi]

etc...

One more tip that almost no one knows about: When you use the "etc" you should always use a "." after it. For example:
"There was all this stuff etc. there was a mess.
But if the "etc" is at the end of a sentence, then do you double up or not?
Is it "get or don't get, etc."
or "get or don't get, etc.."
or "get or don't get, etc.?"
or "get or don't get, etc..."
All of those is OK, except the last one. Three dots is an ellipsis, which is something altogether different.

 

[greenguzzi]

But you do agree that none of Adam's descendants had any choice at all about the gift of the sinful nature correct? They have to receive it, no matter what.

Does that make Adam more powerful than Jesus, which obviously none of us would accept here right?

Wow, this is one of the most profound things I have ever read. This will keep me awake for ages. I have no idea how to answer this.

 

[INeedGrace]

Wow, this is one of the most profound things I have ever read. This will keep me awake for ages. I have no idea how to answer this.

You could have just said "I don't know," or maybe not reply at all.

 

[DamianWarS]

How is Salvation, or anything you/me/we get or receive from God a "free gift" if our own will in any way got it or gets it for us...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

who said it was a free gift? did you ever study these words? in Romans 6:23 the word for "free" and the word for "gift" are both not present in the original text.

the word in question is "charisma" and it was a common word used in the patron/client system of the day. the client sought something from the patron that they could not get themselves, there was no money exchanged but in return, they gave them their service and could be called upon at any time. it's not free, it may be given without payment but it is like a favour that we are forever in debt too.

 

[Bcs90]

It is because Jesus paid the full price for our redemption and took on Himself the full penalty for our failure to keep the law of God. Because the price has been paid, and the penalty received, we are able to obtain salvation as a free gift with the condition that we put our whole faith and trust in Jesus Christ, who died and shed His blood on the cross to pay that price and receive the penalty.

It is like getting to the supermarket checkout with a trolley full of groceries to find that someone else has paid for them, so you don't have to pay, and so you receive your trolley full of groceries as a free gift from the person who paid the bill for you.

I am shopping at the wrong grocery store if this is a normal occurrence. Lucky to not get ran over by a cart or motorized wheel chair, or by someone without a cart.

 

[fhansen]

How is Salvation, or anything you/me/we get or receive from God a "free gift" if our own will in any way got it or gets it for us...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

Free gifts, that we have no way of obtaining on our own, can still be freely rejected.

 

[JacksBratt]

How is Salvation, or anything you/me/we get or receive from God a "free gift" if our own will in any way got it or gets it for us...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

It would not be. Simple.

It is a free gift because there is absolutely nothing we can do to receive, earn or accomplish it.

 

[RaymondG]

How is Salvation, or anything you/me/we get or receive from God a "free gift" if our own will in any way got it or gets it for us...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

If I leave a box of clothes outside my house marked "Free" is it a free gift for anyone to freely take......yet they must go out and take hold of it , of their own free will......before it is received..... Now if one chooses not the take the clothes....that is fine.....but does this make it any less free because many decide not to take the clothes?

 

[Dale]

How is Salvation, or anything you/me/we get or receive from God a "free gift" if our own will in any way got it or gets it for us...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

Even a free gift has to be accepted.