Questions for Orthodox Jews, which reveal the Messiah:

tampasteve

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??? You would agree that the new covenant is not established yet?

Yes and No. But I do not get into internet debates on these matters any longer, I have found them to be unfruitful in the end. Most people have their minds made up when coming into the conversation, and that is OK.
 
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BABerean2

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"customs of our fathers" means he kept to the oral tradition as well as the Torah.

If that is true, whoever recorded the following was very confused.

Php 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you is not tedious, but for you it is safe.
Php 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation!
Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
Php 3:4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so:
Php 3:5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ
Php 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
Php 3:10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,
Php 3:11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.



Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Again I would ask them why a new covenant was needed.
The temple was already rebuilt once, no new covenant is needed for that. So I would be curious what they would say.

The Temple being rebuilt is not necessarily covenant related (other than it's destruction because of Israel's sins). Some Jews believe the Moshiakh will be the one to rebuild it while other Jews believe it has to be rebuilt for the Moshiakh to be able to come. The NC is really looked at as the Geulah (the ultimate redemption).
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Rabbinic Jews still await the Moshiakh. The new covenant has not been established yet but will be with the coming of the Moshiakh and the rebuilding of the Temple.
Your joking right? It is no wonder the Jews stay blinded.....

What was the Cross all about?

Luke 1 YLT

YLT) Hebrews 9:
15And because of this, of a New Covenant he is mediator, that, death having come, for redemption of the transgressions under the first Covenant, those called may receive the promise of the age-during inheritance,
16for where a covenant [is], the death of the covenant-victim to come in is necessary, 17for a covenant over dead victims [is] stedfast, since it is no force at all when the covenant-victim liveth, 18whence not even the first apart from blood hath been initiated,
19for every command having been spoken, according to law, by Moses, to all the people, having taken the blood of the calves and goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, he both the book itself and all the people did sprinkle,

Hebrews 8:13
in the to be saying `New/kainhn <2537>,' He hath made Old the first.
The yet being aged and being obsolete/ghraskon <1095> (5723) nigh of disappearance

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism
The Historical Fall of Jerusalem in AD70
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

=============================
We have to show them He was indeed their [and our] Messiah
born of a Virgin[of which they have no concept, tho Islam does],
preached the Gospel,
was crucified,
died and was entombed.
He rose from the dead, preached another 40 days,
then ascended in a cloud[Acts 1]

Micah 5:2
2 And thou, Beth-Lehem Ephratah, Little to be among the chiefs of Judah!
From thee to Me He cometh forth -- to become Ruler in Israel,
And His goings forth are of old, From days of antiquity/eon.
Isaiah 9:6
A Child is born to us! A Son is given to us! And He will be our ruler.
He will be called, “Wonderful Counselor,” “Mighty God,”
“Eternal Father,” “Prince of Peace.”
=========================
YLT]Luke 1
26And in the sixth month was the messenger Gabriel sent by God, to a city of Galilee, the name of which [is] Nazareth, 27to a virgin, betrothed to a man, whose name [is] Joseph, of the house of David, and the name of the virgin [is] Mary. 28And the messenger having come in unto her, said, ‘Hail, favoured one, the Lord [is] with thee; blessed [art] thou among women;’ 29and she, having seen, was troubled at his word, and was reasoning of what kind this salutation may be. 30And the messenger said to her, ‘Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found favour with God; 31and lo, thou shalt conceive in the womb, and shalt bring forth a Son, and call his name Jesus; 32he shall be great, and Son of the Highest he shall be called, and the Lord God shall give him the throne of David his father, 33and he shall reign over the house of Jacob to the ages; and of his reign there shall be no end.’
===============================
Matthew 1:
21 and she shall bring forth a Son, and thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.’
Luke 2:
7 and she brought forth her Son — the first-born, and wrapped Him up, and laid Him down in the manger, because there was not for them a place in the guest-chamber.
-----------------------------------------------------
They also need to read Revelation that confirms all of that:

Jesus' Birth, Crucifixion, Death, Resurrection and Ascension in Revelation.

Revelation 12:5
And she brought forth<5088> a Son, a male,
Who is about to be shepherding<4165> all the nations in iron rod/staff.


,<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Gap of time>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


And caught away was her Child unto God and His throne,

Acts 1
9 And these things having said — they beholding —
He was taken up, and a cloud did receive Him up from their sight;
10 and as they were looking stedfastly to the heaven in His going on, then behold! two Men stood by them in white apparel,
 
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BABerean2

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Yes and No. But I do not get into internet debates on these matters any longer, I have found them to be unfruitful in the end. Most people have their minds made up when coming into the conversation, and that is OK.

What does God say about the fulfillment of the New Covenant?


Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.
 
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tampasteve

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What does God say about the fulfillment of the New Covenant?


Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.

You can quote all the verses you like, but as I said - people's minds are made up. If you decide to research it from the Messianic point of view you will find that there really are answers and there really is another perspective that takes these verses into account. If you are interested I can point you in the right direction on where to research this, but I feel you have decided your position, as have I. That is OK, I do not feel a compelling need to prove I am correct.
 
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BABerean2

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You can quote all the verses you like, but as I said - people's minds are made up. If you decide to research it from the Messianic point of view you will find that there really are answers and there really is another perspective that takes these verses into account. If you are interested I can point you in the right direction on where to research this, but I feel you have decided your position, as have I. That is OK, I do not feel a compelling need to prove I am correct.

Your comments here have been very revealing in our attempt to understand why the modern Church has done a pitiful job of taking the Gospel to modern Jews.

Thank you for doing that.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.


.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Questions like that will have very little effect on a religious Jew. (Orthodox, Conservative or Reform) The rabbis have had almost 2000 years to formulate and hone their replies to deflect the answers you think are obvious.
Rabbinic Jews still await the Moshiakh. The new covenant has not been established yet but will be with the coming of the Moshiakh and the rebuilding of the Temple.
LittleLambofJesus said:
Your joking right? It is no wonder the Jews stay blinded.....

What was the Cross all about?
Not kidding. Rabbinic Jews don't read the NT...
And whose fault is that?
How about Rabbinic Jews that have converted to Christ?

What Jews Can Learn from the New Testament | My Jewish Learning

It is daunting to think of the number of books a Jew “must” read in order to achieve Jewish literacy. With trepidation I suggest yet another volume to add to that list: the New Testament (NT).

Almost all of the books of the NT were written by Jews, many of them during one of the most eventful periods of Jewish history: just before and just after the destruction of the Second Temple (in 70 C.E.).
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived..................
Very few Jewish writings from that century survive, and none by the rabbis, the representatives of what soon became normative Judaism, since the rabbis of that period felt that their teachings had to remain oral (a position they eventually abandoned). So really the only surviving religious books written by Jews in the first and second centuries are a few of the later Dead Sea Scrolls and the NT.

The Differences between Jews and Christians
Of course, that is not the whole story. Careful Jewish readers of the NT will come to a better understanding of the vast theological differences between Jews and Christians–for example, on the issue of whether God can have a son, and whether God can be incarnated in a human body. Jews will also find interest in reading the virulently anti-Jewish passages of the NT that have resonated in the minds of many Christians over the ages.

It is hard for a Jew not to be taken aback when reading Paul’s reaction upon hearing that a group of recent Christian converts were considering becoming circumcised. Paul castigates them: “If you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you” (Galatians 5:2). And, for good measure, Paul expresses the hope that the (presumably Jewish) advocates of circumcision will let the knife slip and mutilate themselves (Galatians 5:11). While modern scholars have tried to contextualize and tone down the shocking words of Jesus to a group of Jews, “You are of your father the devil” (John 8:44), Jews should know about this and similar statements in the NT because throughout most of the last two millennia, many Christians did believe literally that the Jews were associated with the devil, their father.

Jews can read the NT to see both the strong Jewish values and the strong anti-Jewish values there. Virtually every page of the NT addresses Judaism either implicitly or explicitly. Jews who want to read a “Jewish book” will find much of interest there.
============
Martin I. Lockshin
Martin I. Lockshin, Ph.D., is a professor at the Centre for Jewish Studies at York University in Toronto. He received rabbinic ordination after studying at the yeshiva founded by Rav Kook in Jerusalem.

Martin Lockshin is Chair of the Department of Humanities at York University, Toronto, and has served in the past as Director of York’s Centre for Jewish Studies.
He has an MA and PhD from Brandeis University and rabbinic ordination from Yeshivat HaRav Kook. He is the author of several books and articles on biblical commentary and has twice been awarded the Canadian Jewish Congress Book Prize.
 
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tampasteve

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Your comments here have been very revealing in our attempt to understand why the modern Church has done a pitiful job of taking the Gospel to modern Jews.

Thank you for doing that.


.
It has done a pitiful job. It continues to ignore what answers the Jewish scholars have given and continue to give to the Jews that are religious. How often do mainstream Christians try to delve into what the actual answers are that these scholars give? How often do we research the actual Jewish point of view?

It is easy to say "look, read this verse, it can ONLY mean this! It has to be Jesus!" But we don't take the time to look at their point of view, their interpretation, so if we talk to someone on the street that does not have an answer it looks great, we have an easy win! On the flip side, if we talk to someone that actually has a good answer....we flounder and do not know how to respond. How much better to really, really, research the other side in detail so we have a truly rounded way to speak on the matter? Wouldn't we actually understand the OT and the NT better if we had a more rounded view, a more in depth view?
 
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Lost4words

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It has done a pitiful job. It continues to ignore what answers the Jewish scholars have given and continue to give to the Jews that are religious. How often do mainstream Christians try to delve into what the actual answers are that these scholars give? How often do we research the actual Jewish point of view?

It is easy to say "look, read this verse, it can ONLY mean this! It has to be Jesus!" But we don't take the time to look at their point of view, their interpretation, so if we talk to someone on the street that does not have an answer it looks great, we have an easy win! On the flip side, if we talk to someone that actually has a good answer....we flounder and do not know how to respond. How much better to really, really, research the other side in detail so we have a truly rounded way to speak on the matter? Wouldn't we actually understand the OT and the NT better if we had a more rounded view, a more in depth view?

I disagree. Jesus is the only way, the only truth, the only life.

The jews rejected prophet after prophet. They had all the answers written in scripture. They refused, and still refuse, to see the truth, that is, Jesus Christ.
 
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tampasteve

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I disagree.
OK, we are all free for our own opinions :)

Jesus is the only way, the only truth, the only life.

The jews rejected prophet after prophet. They had all the answers written in scripture. They refused, and still refuse, to see the truth, that is, Jesus Christ.

I disagree with nothing in these statements. :)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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tampasteve said:
It has done a pitiful job. It continues to ignore what answers the Jewish scholars have given and continue to give to the Jews that are religious. How often do mainstream Christians try to delve into what the actual answers are that these scholars give? How often do we research the actual Jewish point of view?
I disagree. Jesus is the only way, the only truth, the only life.

The jews rejected prophet after prophet. They had all the answers written in scripture. They refused, and still refuse, to see the truth, that is, Jesus Christ.
:oldthumbsup: :amen:
Indeed.
Orthodox Judaism [much like Islam] also holds a grudge against our dear brother, the Apostle Paul.
Even a lot of Jews who do convert to Christianity want to cling to the "dead religion" of Mosaic Judaism.
It matters not to me whether some Christian sects want to practice it or not. We are all ONE in Christ.

YLT) 2 Corinthians 3:
7 and if the ministration of the death, in letters, engraved in stones, came in glory, so that the sons of Israel were not able to look stedfastly to the face of Moses, because of the glory of his face — which was being made useless, 8 how shall the ministration of the Spirit not be more in glory?
9 for if the ministration of the condemnation [is] glory, much more doth the ministration of the righteousness abound in glory; 10 for also even that which hath been glorious, hath not been glorious — in this respect, because of the superior glory; 11 for if that which is being made useless [is] through glory, much more that which is remaining [is] in glory.

12 Having, then, such hope, we use much freedom of speech,
13 and [are] not as Moses, who was putting a veil<2571> upon his own face, for the sons of Israel not stedfastly to look to the end of that which is being made useless,
14 but their minds were hardened, for unto this day the same veil<2571> at the reading of the Old Covenant doth remain unwithdrawn
which in Christ is being made useless

15 but till to-day, when Moses is read, a veil<2571> upon their heart doth lie,
16and whenever they may turn unto the Lord, the veil<2571> is taken away.
17 And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty;
18 and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror, to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
=============
The unveiling of Jesus Christ in Revelation:

Luke 2:32
a light to the uncovering<602> of nations, and the glory of Thy people Israel.'

Revelation Chapter 1 Verses

Revelation 1:1
An unveiling/revealing <602> of Jesus Christ, which gives to him, the God, to show to the bond-servants of Him which-things is binding to be becoming in swiftness.
And He signifies-it, commissioning thru the messenger of Him, to the bond-servant of Him, John.

602. apokalupsis
from 601;
disclosure:--appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, unveil, revelation.
575. apo apo'
a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near),
2572. kalupto akin to 2813 and 2928;
to cover up (literally or figuratively):--cover, hide.

Mat 10:26

“Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered<2572> that will not be revealed<601>,
and hidden<2927> that will not be known
John 5:39
"Ye are searching the Writings that ye are seeming in them life age-during to be having, and those are the ones-testifying about Me".

2Co 4:3
But even if our Gospel is veiled<2572>,
it is veiled<2572> to those who are perishing,

2Peter 3:16
As also in all the Letters, speaking in them about these-things;
in which are difficult to understand, any which the un-learned and un-steadfast are wresting/twisting as also the rest of Writings, toward the own of them destruction/apwleian <684>. [# 684 used reve 17:8, 11]
 
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BABerean2

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It has done a pitiful job. It continues to ignore what answers the Jewish scholars have given and continue to give to the Jews that are religious. How often do mainstream Christians try to delve into what the actual answers are that these scholars give? How often do we research the actual Jewish point of view?

It is easy to say "look, read this verse, it can ONLY mean this! It has to be Jesus!" But we don't take the time to look at their point of view, their interpretation, so if we talk to someone on the street that does not have an answer it looks great, we have an easy win! On the flip side, if we talk to someone that actually has a good answer....we flounder and do not know how to respond. How much better to really, really, research the other side in detail so we have a truly rounded way to speak on the matter? Wouldn't we actually understand the OT and the NT better if we had a more rounded view, a more in depth view?

You must have missed the video of the Jewish Christian sharing Isaiah chapter 53 with modern Orthodox Israeli Jews, which is found in the first post of this thread.

When you say "we" above, are you talking about those of us who make excuses about why sharing the Gospel with modern Jews will not work?


My wife and I have been supporting two ministries with share the Gospel with modern Jews, for several years now. People are now coming to faith through the work of these ministries.

It is time to quit making excuses and get to work to fulfill the Great Commission for all races of people.

Watch the video in the first post, and then come back and tell us if you think the man wasted his time.

.
 
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ralliann

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The Temple being rebuilt is not necessarily covenant related (other than it's destruction because of Israel's sins). Some Jews believe the Moshiakh will be the one to rebuild it while other Jews believe it has to be rebuilt for the Moshiakh to be able to come. The NC is really looked at as the Geulah (the ultimate redemption).
This really does not answer the question though
 
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Mark45

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Every year thousands of modern Orthodox Jews die without Christ.

During my lifetime the Church has done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with Orthodox Jews. Various forms of Dual Covenant Theology are part of the problem.

If we really love them we should be willing to ask the following questions which reveal the true identity of the Jewish Messiah.



Do you believe what is written in the Hebrew scriptures?



Who is the "seed of the woman" who bruises the serpent's head in Genesis 3:15?



Who is God's "son" in Psalm 2?



Who is "the suffering servant" from Isaiah chapter 53?



Who fulfilled the "New Covenant" promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34?



Who is the Messiah found in the timeline of Daniel chapter 9?



Who is the only person who fulfilled the Hebrew scriptures found above?



Forbidden Chapter in the Tanakh (Jewish Evangelism)

.

Yes Real Love for Jewish people has to include all Jewish people groups liberal progressive and Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox and all different types of Jewish people both Israeli and diaspora.
This is real love to pray and share with Israeli people and not excluding the enemies of Israel as a nation and there are many nations in the world. Sharing the good news of Messiah His dreadful rejection and suffering and death on the cross and glorious powerful resurrection.
 
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ralliann

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The jews rejected prophet after prophet. They had all the answers written in scripture. They refused, and still refuse, to see the truth, that is, Jesus Christ.
Yes and they also first rejected John a prophet sent to them from God.

Lu 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
Jo 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
 
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Mark45

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Yes Real Love for Jewish people has to include all Jewish people groups liberal progressive and Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox and all different types of Jewish people both Israeli and diaspora.
This is real love to pray and share with Israeli people and not excluding the enemies of Israel as a nation and there are many nations in the world. Sharing the good news of Messiah His dreadful rejection and suffering and death on the cross and glorious powerful resurrection.
Yeshua (Jesus) is uniquely Jewish in His historical Jewish culture and understands. He prayed Father forgive them they know not what they do. Both Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathaea were important members of The Sanhedrin and they believed in Yeshua (Jesus). Yet Jesus came to die for all our sins that was his way of Bringing a Perfect everlasting New Covenant.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Every year thousands of modern Orthodox Jews die without Christ.

During my lifetime the Church has done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with Orthodox Jews. Various forms of Dual Covenant Theology are part of the problem.

If we really love them we should be willing to ask the following questions which reveal the true identity of the Jewish Messiah.



Do you believe what is written in the Hebrew scriptures?



Who is the "seed of the woman" who bruises the serpent's head in Genesis 3:15?



Who is God's "son" in Psalm 2?



Who is "the suffering servant" from Isaiah chapter 53?



Who fulfilled the "New Covenant" promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34?



Who is the Messiah found in the timeline of Daniel chapter 9?



Who is the only person who fulfilled the Hebrew scriptures found above?



Forbidden Chapter in the Tanakh (Jewish Evangelism)

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Dual covenant theology was started by Dispensationalism and perpetuated by Hagee and others. The interesting thing about that, Jews could care less. They are not ignorant of the fact that Christians of this elk wish for them to build the temple, have some anti-Christ take it over and deceive all the Jews. This is what futurism teaches. So there is no way an orthodox Jew would accept the concept of a "dual covenant". They would never want to be associated with Jesus Christ of Nazareth and He would never trick them into it.
Blessings
 
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