Earth's age and Adam's age

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Ted
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Regardless if Adam looked 20 or 30, he was 1 when he was created.

If you follow the chronogeneaology, there is no way you can interpret the world to be more than 7,000 years old.

Hi jonaitis,

You are correct. On the day that Adam was created, and we'll assume that he looked to be about 20 years old as we see 20 year olds today, once the earth completed one trip around the sun, he would have been one year old. At which point he would have 'looked' like a 21 year old. The fact that something may have been created to 'look' older, has no bearing whatsoever on 'how' old something really is.

Antiques dealers have to watch out for this all the time. That some unscrupulous fabricator may attempt to make a newer piece look older. Just because something 'looks' older does not, in fact, mean that it actually existed throughout the years that it is claimed to have existed.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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nolidad

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I have heard this before. But wouldn't that be like God tricking us to believe Earth is older than it is?

Btw, I don't think most Christians believe that Earth is 6000 years old.

You are correct! God would not trick us. The appearance of age is just that an appearance made by arbitrary consensus by men who were not there at the formation of all matter.

And yes the vast majority of Christians accept the evolutionary cosmology and evolutionary biology of untestable science.
 
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zoidar

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No - it would be like God creating the universe fully grown and functioning just as He did Adam and Eve.
The Bible?

Why would God create "evidence" of old Earth if it's young. Why make year rings in a tree, if it's not years old? Why would God do this to us?
 
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Yekcidmij

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Yes - with the ones far away - which are the ones we are talking about.

This sort-of makes my previous point doesn't it? The "Last Thursdayism" view undermines the foundations of knowledge. This seems evident in this instance where you can't even know that the stars we observe in the sky are really there.
 
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Yekcidmij

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Antiques dealers have to watch out for this all the time. That some unscrupulous fabricator may attempt to make a newer piece look older. Just because something 'looks' older does not, in fact, mean that it actually existed throughout the years that it is claimed to have existed.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

I think in in the world of antique dealing making something appear older than it really is would be called a "fraud." I'm no antiques expert though.
 
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No, Christians certainly do not think the Earth is 6,000 years old. Fundamentalist Protestants do, because of their inability to correctly interpret the Bible, but the great majority of Christians exist in a world of reality, and recognize that the solar system, including the Earth, is many millions of years old.
born again Christian biologist
 
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RickardoHolmes

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No, Christians certainly do not think the Earth is 6,000 years old. Fundamentalist Protestants do, because of their inability to correctly interpret the Bible, but the great majority of Christians exist in a world of reality, and recognize that the solar system, including the Earth, is many millions of years old.
born again Christian biologist

to-expect-sense.jpg
 
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I think in in the world of antique dealing making something appear older than it really is would be called a "fraud." I'm no antiques expert though.

HI jekcidmij,

That's correct. However, I wasn't explaining it so that we could name it differently. I was explaining it as a similar process.

With God's creation, the fraudsters would be ourselves. If God did create Adam as a man who appeared to be 20 years old based on 'our' understanding of what a 20 year old looked like, but...we claimed that Adam was 20 years old based on his appearance and not his age, then we would be the liars.

This appearance of age is something that is based on our own limited understanding of things, albeit, there is plenty of evidence to support our understanding. We see young adults who are 20 years old every day. they range about 5-6 ft tall and generally weigh anywhere from 120 to 180 lbs. So, based on such sightings of many, many, many 20 year olds, when we then see someone who generally fits that description, we automatically assume that the person we are looking at is likely about 20 years old.

However, in the singular case of Adam, God formed him to be a fully grown human being and so he looked like our assumed 20 year old. However, the reality of truth would be that he was only 1 year of age, when the earth completed its first trip around the sun. So this is a case that our assumption, certainly based on a plethora of similar evidence, would be wrong if we considered Adam to be any other age than 1 year old after that first trip around the sun.

We would then be the liars if we tried to convince others, or gave a testimony that he was older than 1 year at that time.

Similarly with the rest of the creation. We tend to date things based on empirical evidence that we have gleaned from the natural processes that we know to be occurring in the creation today. However, there really isn't any way for any of us to know what a rock would have shown as 'age' on the day that it was created.

It's entirely possible that IF one of us were alive on the day that God created the earth out of nothing -- and we had at our disposal all of the scientific testing apparatus that we have today -- that we could have picked up a rock that didn't even exist 5 minutes ago and run it through all of our tests and it would have shown some age of 1 million years.

Just some possible realities to consider.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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An interesting idea regarding evolution/Christian debate.

Christians generally take the side that the earth is around 6,000 years old.

However, using a comparative interpretation of Adam's age, we can assume the earth is not 6,000 years old. But perhaps the age of time is 6,000 years.

We can assume Adam wasn't created as a fetus or infant (no womb for him to grow). Then most likely he was created in his 20's or 30's. Regardless, the central point is he wasn't created at age 1.

We can apply this same question to the earth. Were the rocks, trees, water, sun, etc., created at age 1? 10? 1000? 1 million?

The genealogy of Jesus can be traced to Adam (via the line of Mary) in Luke chapter 3. Adam was the first man. Secular world scientists try to push that the Earth is old so as to prove that God does not exist and that Bible is not true. I will stick with the Bible that the Earth is 6,000 years old because that is the impression we get from Scripture. There are also many scientific evidences for a Young Earth, too. But the most important thing we can do is not argue for the age of creation, but we need to preach how Jesus died for man's sins and He rose three days later so as to offer mankind the gift of eternal life and forgiveness of our past sin, so we can walk uprightly with the Lord in holiness. Arguing over the age of the Earth is a minor detail. Some make this to be like it is a gospel (almost). But the gospel is believing in Jesus Christ and His death and resurrection for salvation. Obeying the gospel is crucifying the affections and lusts by receiving the Spirit, and in walking in newness of life (i.e. Obeying the Lord's commands in the New Testament).
 
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Hi zoidar,

You posted in reply to another post:
Btw, I don't think most Christians believe that Earth is 6000 years old.

Yes, there are many, many who are attached to the name of christian that do believe that there is some way that evolutionary theory can be reconciled with God's word. However, that 'fact' alone does not truth make.

There are many, many, many people who believe that Muhammed is God's prophet. That doesn't make it true. There are many, many, many who believe that Jesus died for our sin. That doesn't make it true.

What the believer can be assured is that whatever he finds in God's written word...that is true. Jesus assured us of that.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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Why would God create "evidence" of old Earth if it's young. Why make year rings in a tree, if it's not years old? Why would God do this to us?
Why create Adam full grown with hair if he was young? Why create a tree full grown with fruit on it if it was young?

Don't shoot me. I'm just the messenger. :)
....The "Last Thursdayism" view undermines the foundations of knowledge.
No - God and His Word are the foundations of knowledge. You're looking in the wrong place.

So called "Last Thursdayism" just explains what that God given foundation tells us.
....This seems evident in this instance where you can't even know that the stars we observe in the sky are really there.
With the exception of the sun we don't "observe" stars. We observe the light from stars which may or may not still exist.

It seems to me that you are trying to palm off on me and the Word of God the idea that God created the light from the stars without creating the stars themselves.

The Word tells us otherwise. Where do you see in the Word where it says otherwise.

I certainly didn't say that. Provide the location if you saw me say that God created the light from the stars but no stars.:scratch:

You can either believe the Words of God by faith or you can be like Adam and Eve and believe the enemy.

"Oh really, has God really said?"

God really has said by the way.

I suggest you visit Bible Gateway to read it in multiple translations.

By the way - with the exception of the sun - the stars could well have imploded or ceased to exist the instant Adam fell.

After all the Word tells us that ----

"...the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God."
Romans 8:19-21

I, for one, can hardly wait to see how this universe functions when God gets it firing on all eight cylinders again with a new Heavens and a new earth.
 
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Yekcidmij

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With God's creation, the fraudsters would be ourselves. If God did create Adam as a man who appeared to be 20 years old based on 'our' understanding of what a 20 year old looked like, but...we claimed that Adam was 20 years old based on his appearance and not his age, then we would be the liars.

I don't think we would be fraudsters or liars as those terms seem to imply intent to deceive. If I'm simply mistaken about something, that doesn't make me a fraudster.

But it does seem like this would apply to God. He would have made everything with the intent to deceive as he designed our cognitive faculties to make inferences in certain ways and also made everything in such a way that they would deceive those faculties. It looks like it makes God out to be a deceiver.

This appearance of age is something that is based on our own limited understanding of things, albeit, there is plenty of evidence to support our understanding. We see young adults who are 20 years old every day. they range about 5-6 ft tall and generally weigh anywhere from 120 to 180 lbs. So, based on such sightings of many, many, many 20 year olds, when we then see someone who generally fits that description, we automatically assume that the person we are looking at is likely about 20 years old.

However, in the singular case of Adam, God formed him to be a fully grown human being and so he looked like our assumed 20 year old. However, the reality of truth would be that he was only 1 year of age, when the earth completed its first trip around the sun. So this is a case that our assumption, certainly based on a plethora of similar evidence, would be wrong if we considered Adam to be any other age than 1 year old after that first trip around the sun.

I think it's a more fundamental problem, though it includes the appearance of age in Adam. The problem is that everything would be much younger than it appears to be, processes of development would only be apparently so, laws of physics would only be apparently true, our cognitive faculties would only appear to function properly, our 5 senses would only appear to deliver accurate representations of the objective world...

I think this undermines the belief in Last Thursdayism itself since it undermines the basic foundations of knowledge. On Last Thursdayism, we don't have cognitive faculties functioning properly. Our 5 senses don't deliver correct information about the real world. The processes we observe in the objective world are ephemeral. Normal assumptions about inference fall apart. Given these, and probably others, I'm not sure how belief in Last Thursdayism itself could be justified as that belief would be just as irrational as all others.

We would then be the liars if we tried to convince others, or gave a testimony that he was older than 1 year at that time.

We'd be mistaken and misguided, though I'm not sure we would be liars. Lying seems to me to imply intent to deceive.

Similarly with the rest of the creation. We tend to date things based on empirical evidence that we have gleaned from the natural processes that we know to be occurring in the creation today. However, there really isn't any way for any of us to know what a rock would have shown as 'age' on the day that it was created.

But I think we can know the processes that form rocks, and from those processes we can know the age of rocks.

It's entirely possible that IF one of us were alive on the day that God created the earth out of nothing -- and we had at our disposal all of the scientific testing apparatus that we have today -- that we could have picked up a rock that didn't even exist 5 minutes ago and run it through all of our tests and it would have shown some age of 1 million years.

Just some possible realities to consider.

I take a different view. I think God made an objective reality and intended for it to be intelligible to us with our given cognitive equipment.

I think the view youre putting forward undermines intelligibility and knowledge itself to include rules and modes of inference and knowledge of objective reality. I think God designed things in such a way that our minds do function properly in our universe and do deliver accurate information about the external world.
 
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Hi yekcidmij,

Thanks for your reply. You wrote:
I don't think we would be fraudsters or liars as those terms seem to imply intent to deceive. If I'm simply mistaken about something, that doesn't make me a fraudster.

Friend, you may use whatever word you would like to use to describe someone who knows the truth -- God's word does tell us that we do know the truth -- but fails to believe it or follow it. If God has said that in six days, each consisting of an evening and a morning just like any day we experience today, He created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. Then God says that on the sixth of those days He created Adam, Then God says that Adam lived 930 years and lays out a fairly concise genealogy through to Abraham and then Moses, and that genealogy confirms that we are living in a creation approximately 6,000 years old, yet my personal testimony as a supposed believer in the truth of God is that the creation is much, much older than that, that means that I am giving testimony that I should know to be untrue based on the words of the one I believe to be the truth.

Now, you are free to call that person mistaken or misled. My contention is that such a claim, that the earth is much older, is a lie. It is also what God's word confirms about such things: For they have believed the lie, and not held to the truth. That's what God's word says about those who know the truth, but for whatever reason, don't confirm the truth by their testimony

Maybe they believe the 'science' of man over the 'truth' of God. Maybe they're embarrassed to stand out in a crowd of their friends opposed to what they believe. Maybe they just haven't bothered to study the words of the one that they claim to believe in and don't know the truth because all they've ever looked into is the science of man. For whatever reason, God's word gives us a testimony of the truth of His act and time of creating this realm in which we live. As an individual we have a choice. Just as we have a choice in pretty much all decisions and actions that we make/take. We can either trust that God has actually told us the truth in its plain and simple understanding, or we can believe that man has told us the truth and then try to figure out some way to get God's word to reconcile to man's truth.

Call it what you will.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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Yekcidmij

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With the exception of the sun we don't "observe" stars. We observe the light from stars which may or may not still exist.

By this strict definition you don't "observe" anything at all as light must travel into your retina before you detect it. You only observe things as they may have been a few milliseconds or more ago.

I would have said if you observe the light from stars X numbers of years ago, then you are indeed observing real stars as they were X number of years ago. If you know how the life of a star progresses, how the fusion process works, the laws of physics, etc.. then you can possibly know what the star looks like today. For you, if you observe the light from stars X number of years ago, you aren't really observing anything at all; your mind has been tricked, the laws of physics aren't real, the past isn't real, and your inferences about the external world, propositional knowledge, and knowledge of other minds are unjustified.

It's a real problem for you and I don't think you're able to address it.

You can either believe the Words of God by faith or you can be like Adam and Eve and believe the enemy.

"Oh really, has God really said?"

Ah, there we go. It's really satan, though you're the one saying God has intentionally deceived everyone, and the only reason I'm able to discern for this deception is so that you can maintain a 7,000 year old view of the earth.

I suggest you visit Bible Gateway to read it in multiple translations.

And now the insults will begin. It must be that I haven't read the bible, unlike yourself.

I prefer Tyndale's STEP bible in any case. I suggest you take a gander at the differences in chronology between the SP, MT, and LXX if you're into multiple translations:

Gen 1 | ESV | STEP | In the beginning , God created the heavens and the earth .

.
 
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Hi yekcidmij,

Thanks for your response:
But it does seem like this would apply to God. He would have made everything with the intent to deceive as he designed our cognitive faculties to make inferences in certain ways and also made everything in such a way that they would deceive those faculties. It looks like it makes God out to be a deceiver.

So, your contention is that 'if' God made everything as He has told us that He has, but man can't confirm it because relying on the study of all that God has made seems to deny it, that God is a deceiver? Sorry, that just doesn't logically follow as an argument. God made everything as it needed to be made. Whether or not we can understand it or replicate it or 'see' how He did it, honestly has no bearing on the truth of how He made all things.

I know that I've used this comparison before and many just throw it out and say that it somehow doesn't apply, but I'll try again.

There was a time, if we believe God's word, that the shadow of the sun went backwards ten steps on a flight of stairs. We know that's impossible. In fact, the king who was asked to tell God whether the shadow should go forwards or backwards also knew that backwards would be impossible.

How did that happen according to all the natural properties of the universe that we know?

There was a time that God split open a fairly deep sea for several thousands of people to pass through. The testimony of those who passed through the trough was that there was a wall of water on both the right and left hand of those who passed through.

How is that possible with all that we know about the natural properties of water?

So, the question is now that God's word tells us that He created all that is in this realm in 6 days about 6,000 years ago.

How is that possible with all of the natural properties of things that we know?

It isn't!!!!!!! But then, neither can the water have stood as a sentinel on the right or left hand of those passing through the sea. Neither can the shadow on the steps have gone backwards. So, we have this dilemma where we either believe God or we don't.

Now, if you want to make the claim that such a possibility would make God a liar or deceiver, you are perfectly free to do that. Me? I'm just going to believe God. He did part the sea just as the testimony tells us that He did. He did make the shadow go backwards just as the testimony tells us that He did. He did create all things just as the testimony tells us that He did.

He is, after all, GOD!!

God bless you,
In Christ, ted
 
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ViaCrucis

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Just like the Bible says of Adam, the tree with fruit and everything else?
Why would that be?

No it does not. Seeming that way (as in the case of Adam and the tree with fruit) is all we see.

In fact we are told that it just seemed that the tree and Adam and Eve were older than they were. Believe God or not on the matter.
No it does not.

It gives evidence of the effects of age when aging didn't happen. Just as we are told in the Bible account.

No it does not. They may well not exist now - but we have no way of knowing either from science or from the biblical account.

Simply not so.

The argument simply tells us that other things are just as they were with Adam and Eve, the tree, and the fruit in the Bible account.


No - it would be like God creating the universe fully grown and functioning just as He did Adam and Eve.
The Bible?

The following is an image taken of the Andromeda Galaxy located 2.5 million light years away.
b07.jpg


In 1885 astronomers observed a supernova within Andromeda, the massive death of a star now called S. Andromedae.

The speed of light in a vacuum is constant (known as c), c = 299,792,458 meters per second, or about 671,000,000 miles per hour.

The distance light travels in a year is known as a light year.

When photons leave the sun and head toward the earth, the light we observe has already traveled about eight minutes. So if, for example, the sun suddenly disappeared from existence we would not know about it for a full eight minutes.

The closest star to us (other than the sun obviously) is Proxima Centauri, located 4.22 light years away. So if Proxima Centauri suddenly disappeared, we wouldn't know about it for 4.22 years, that is the delay between the event and our observation of the event, due to the speed of light.

The Andromeda Galaxy is located 2.5 million light years away, and so when in 1885 observers saw S. Andromedae go supernova, they were witnessing an event that had taken place 2.5 million years ago in the past. When S. Andromedae went supernova there weren't even Homo sapiens around, it was before Homo erectus, and even before Homo habilis.

Here's the problem, if the universe is only ~6000 years old then that means the supernova observed in 1885 was of an event that never happened.

If the Omphalos Argument is true then S. Andromedae never existed.

That means light from a star that never existed from an event that never happened was created in situ, mid-transit between the Andromeda Galaxy and earth.

That is a lot more than being like Adam simply having a navel, that is like Adam having memories of a childhood that never happened.

We are observing memories of the universe that never happened.

Do you not see how that is a massive problem?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Hi yekcidmij,

Ahhhh, the promise of incomplete 'science'. You wrote:
But I think we can know the processes that form rocks, and from those processes we can know the age of rocks.

No!!!! We can theorize how rocks are made. No one has ever made a rock from nothing. We can certainly see how big rocks can be broken down into smaller rocks. But, no one has ever made a rock from something that didn't previously exist. We can theorize that the earth was all some sort of sandy matter billions of years ago and that the sand was crushed into a rock by the trillions of tons of weight upon it. But no one has ever replicated that process.

We do not, with even the slightest bit of assurance, know how the first rocks that make up the mantle of the earth were made. We can theorize that it was magma from below that covered the earth in some gargantuan explosion, but we can't know that. We can't reproduce it. We can only study the rocks and try to figure out what they can tell us about how they were formed. So we end up with a few 'educated' guesses, but we can't know without any assurance, unless we can replicate the process. That is the entire failure of 'science' proving the creation. We can only guess that this caused that, but we can't know for a fact that this caused that unless we can replicate the process.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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zoidar

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Hi zoidar,

You posted in reply to another post:


Yes, there are many, many who are attached to the name of christian that do believe that there is some way that evolutionary theory can be reconciled with God's word. However, that 'fact' alone does not truth make.

There are many, many, many people who believe that Muhammed is God's prophet. That doesn't make it true. There are many, many, many who believe that Jesus died for our sin. That doesn't make it true.

What the believer can be assured is that whatever he finds in God's written word...that is true. Jesus assured us of that.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

I fully agree that many ppl believing it doesn't make it true.

Where did Jesus assured us that?
 
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And now the insults will begin. It must be that I haven't read the bible, unlike yourself.
Sorry for the insult. It wasn't meant to be one.

My only point is that the scriptures are pretty clear on the subject - even providing genealogies for us so we can't fudge the numbers by much without betraying a lack of belief in the Word of God.

Obviously you guys think it's proven science that the creation is very old rather than young - as a plain reading of the scriptures indicate. I simply don't believe that it is proven science and I think there are other legitimate ways to look at it.

I choose to embrace ways of looking at the science involved which closest align with the scriptures.

But - to each his own.
When S. Andromedae went supernova there weren't even Homo sapiens around, it was before Homo erectus, and even before Homo habilis.
Here we have the root of the problem that is displayed in most cases where the idea of a young earth is ridiculed.

You simply do not believe the scriptures to begin with and it translates not only to the idea of an old universe. It also translates over into a complete denial of the creation account concerning the origins of mankind and the entry of sin and it's consequences into God's perfect creation.

Look - folks - have at it. You have my opinion for what it's worth - probably not much in your views.

There are Christians of varying degree of liberalism who will jump in to defend your position because they have compromised their beliefs with the world to a certain extent. You won't be alone.:wave:
 
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