Earth's age and Adam's age

JIMINZ

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The church today is beginning to compromise the historical account of Genesis with secular science, as the early church compromised Christian principles with secular philosophy. Those who object are treated the same by those in the secular community, does anyone see the correlation?

The Church at one time said, the SUN Rotated around the Earth, until Galileo, was he wrong?

Have you compromised your belief, or do you still insist the Sun Rotates around the Earth

I'm sure they used the same sort of Chronological reasoning you have., were they compromising or copping out?
 
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Jonaitis

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How old are the Dinosaurs, when in the 6 days of Creation did they come about?
Did Adam have to chase them out of his corn field?
Did they drown in the Flood?
Did they die off before the Flood, because they sure didn't come to Noah 2x2.
Geologically The Appalachian Mountains are older than the Alps, they were higher than the Alps also, but they are not today why is that?

  • Dinosaurs were created on the sixth day, as did the other land animals.
  • Adam did not have to see them, as there are hardly any, if at all, fossil records in the Near East. They can be found in other continents, but a majority of them are found in the Americas. Since people did not migrate very far between Adam to the Tower of Babel, and there is hardly (if any) fossil record of them existing in Mesopotamia/Near East, then it is safe to conclude they never made eye contact with humans during that span of their existence, thus why it is never mentioned in the Scriptures and why they aren't alive today. Mass migration occurred after the flood, and it is likely they died during the flood. Noah would not have seen them enter the Ark for the aforementioned things above.
 
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Jonaitis

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The Church at one time said, the SUN Rotated around the Earth, until Galileo, was he wrong?

Have you compromised your belief, or do you still insist the Sun Rotates around the Earth

I'm sure they used the same sort of Chronological reasoning you have., were the compromising or copping out?

Nope. If Scripture teaches flat earth, I would believe it. I must if I take this very book to be the true words of God. But I know that the Scriptures don't teach this, it is ground perspective and individual perception of language they use. I forgot what they call it.
 
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JIMINZ

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Dinosaurs were created on the sixth day, as did the other land animals.

Adam did not have to see them, as there are hardly any, if at all, fossil records in the Near East. They can be found in other continents, but a majority of them are found in the Americas. Since people did not migrate very far between Adam to the Tower of Babel, and there is hardly (if any) fossil record of them existing in Mesopotamia/Near East, then it is safe to conclude they never made eye contact with humans during that span of their existence, thus why it is never mentioned in the Scriptures and why they aren't alive today. Mass migration occurred after the flood, and it is likely they died during the flood. Noah would not have seen them enter the Ark for the aforementioned things above.

Then according to you, with all fossil records we should find the Dinosaurs in the Flood record layer.

Continental shift, could cause them to not show up in the East.

Nothing to say about the Geological records?
 
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Dave L

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An interesting idea regarding evolution/Christian debate.

Christians generally take the side that the earth is around 6,000 years old.

However, using a comparative interpretation of Adam's age, we can assume the earth is not 6,000 years old. But perhaps the age of time is 6,000 years.

We can assume Adam wasn't created as a fetus or infant (no womb for him to grow). Then most likely he was created in his 20's or 30's. Regardless, the central point is he wasn't created at age 1.

We can apply this same question to the earth. Were the rocks, trees, water, sun, etc., created at age 1? 10? 1000? 1 million?
What if everything you see in the world around you is God's eternal decree made visible by his creation of time, space and matter.

In Hebrews 11:3 the writer says; “By faith we understand that the worlds were set in order at God’s command, so that the visible has its origin in the invisible.”

Calvin translates it; “so that they became the visibles of things not visible,” or, not apparent. And then says; “thus the same truth is taught here, as in Rom. 1:20, where it is said, that the invisible things of God are made known to us by the creation of the world, they being seen in his works.”

So are we looking at eternity made visible through the matter God created to make it visible? And this can easily fit into 6 literal days. Because the distances and age were already here. Only now made visible 6-7000 years ago.

The same way metal shavings when dusted on a piece of paper with a magnet below, reveal the magnetic waves. Like a huge house, light-years across. Where God applies matter and all the lights come on at once. Taking moments for what would take trillions of light-years using space-time measurements.

This is just a theory I have and it seems as though it reconciles science and the bible.
 
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nolidad

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An interesting idea regarding evolution/Christian debate.

Christians generally take the side that the earth is around 6,000 years old.

However, using a comparative interpretation of Adam's age, we can assume the earth is not 6,000 years old. But perhaps the age of time is 6,000 years.

We can assume Adam wasn't created as a fetus or infant (no womb for him to grow). Then most likely he was created in his 20's or 30's. Regardless, the central point is he wasn't created at age 1.

We can apply this same question to the earth. Were the rocks, trees, water, sun, etc., created at age 1? 10? 1000? 1 million?

Well with Adam and the creation of the universe we have a paradox. We do know Adam was an adult when God formed him. But that is day one of his life!

The universe would be the same! regardless of any "appearance" it would be day one o the existence of the universe! Age of "rocks" is supposedly determined by radioactive decay, and the age of the universe is supposedly measured by the distance light supposedly travelled!
 
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nolidad

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Why would you assume so? Are you attributing constancy of time? That is to say, for the universe to appear 14 billion years old, it may actually BE 14 billion years old from the point of view of time as the universe expands. But relative to our current point of view it may only appear so, because we see what happened 14 billion years ago --i.e. we are only just now receiving light that began 14 billion years ago (its time).

Nobody seems to realize that if we were to live a billion years more we may see light from 16 billion years ago.

I say all this to say we don't know much. But Science says that the speed of light is relative; to which I add, The God who invented time is capable of manipulating it at his pleasure, without being dishonest.

Except that teh foundation of your thesis is fatally problematic!

Think for a moment of these insurmountable problems.

1. Evolutioanry cosmologists say the universe is c. 13.8 by old.
2. Hubble has supposedly has captured light 13.2 billion light years in deep space/time.
3. The universe started as a singularity of stuff that did not exist prior to the big bang.
4. The big bang created space/time/matter. And hurled what was to become all the existing universe into nothingness in all directions.

Now the problems--

1. If the big bang occurred 13.8 billion light years ago, how can we see multiples of galaxies 13.2 billion light years distant in deep space?

2. Everything began to travel out into the void from the point of the singularity.

3. those galaxies hubble captured the light from are only 600,000,000 younger than the supposed age of the universe.

4. those galaxies (which started as plasma and whatever other funky stuff they say happened in the first nanoseconds of the big bang) had to travel at 20X the speed of light to reach a poiont in deep space in order to shine light 13.2 billion light years ago that is just reaching us now!

5. that means that while travelling at Warp 20 (for you Star Trek fans) it had to take those gasses, space dust etc. and form planets and clumps that later ignited to form the millions of billions of stars that makeup those distant galaxies all the while travelling at 3,720,000/second! To give you an idea of the speed:

Light from the sun travels at the speed of light @ 186,300 miles/sec. and takes 8 minutes to reach us. these galaxies light would take less than 30 seconds to reach us if they were the same distance from us as the sun.

6. It had to travel those speeds, 20X the speed of light. Foir the universe was only supposeldy 600,000,000 old when th elight from those galaxies shone from that point in space time that took 13.2 billion years to reach us!


Another conundrum to solve. We know that those galaxies are not even there where we see the light shining . They have supposedly traveled 13.2 billion years away form that point in space/time according to evolutionary cosmology! so if we are seeing light from something that is no longer where we see that light- why can't we readjust the telescopes and see the light from those galaxies from 12 billion years ago?

How about 10 billion years ago? Certainly the light from those supposed time frames hasn't disappeared and we should see those galaxies light somewhere in the universe.

Or we can accept the words of one who was told by the Creator how it all began>

Genesis 1:1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

And y following the genealogies we can deduce that God hurled the universe into space approx 6,000 years ago!
 
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Yekcidmij

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If you follow the chronogeneaology, there is no way you can interpret the world to be more than 7,000 years old.

Which chronology do you follow? The Masoretic Text, Septuagint or Samaritan Pentateuch?
 
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zoidar

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An interesting idea regarding evolution/Christian debate.

Christians generally take the side that the earth is around 6,000 years old.

However, using a comparative interpretation of Adam's age, we can assume the earth is not 6,000 years old. But perhaps the age of time is 6,000 years.

We can assume Adam wasn't created as a fetus or infant (no womb for him to grow). Then most likely he was created in his 20's or 30's. Regardless, the central point is he wasn't created at age 1.

We can apply this same question to the earth. Were the rocks, trees, water, sun, etc., created at age 1? 10? 1000? 1 million?

I have heard this before. But wouldn't that be like God tricking us to believe Earth is older than it is?

Btw, I don't think most Christians believe that Earth is 6000 years old.
 
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Yekcidmij

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And in the end it paints a terrible portrait of God, and advocates for the downright heretical. We have a creator who falsifies evidence to deceive us, and a universe which seems one way, but is in fact another way--that is itself a kind of docetism of nature.

The view may be self defeating as well. If God is willing to deceive in this manner, who's to say that everything wasn't created yesterday (or worse, 5 seconds ago) with the same sort of appearance of age? For a person who holds that view, I'm not sure how they could know otherwise. The "appearance of age" view may undermine the foundations of knowledge, and so defeat itself as one wouldn't be able to know the truth of "Last Thursdayism."
 
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An interesting idea regarding evolution/Christian debate.

Christians generally take the side that the earth is around 6,000 years old.

However, using a comparative interpretation of Adam's age, we can assume the earth is not 6,000 years old. But perhaps the age of time is 6,000 years.

We can assume Adam wasn't created as a fetus or infant (no womb for him to grow). Then most likely he was created in his 20's or 30's. Regardless, the central point is he wasn't created at age 1.

We can apply this same question to the earth. Were the rocks, trees, water, sun, etc., created at age 1? 10? 1000? 1 million?


Does it explicitly say anywhere in the bible how old everything exactly is? If not don't think God thought it was that important for us to know that detail.
 
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dcalling

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The Church at one time said, the SUN Rotated around the Earth, until Galileo, was he wrong?

Have you compromised your belief, or do you still insist the Sun Rotates around the Earth

I'm sure they used the same sort of Chronological reasoning you have., were they compromising or copping out?

It is the people on earth (what you called the church) that assumed sun rotated around the earth, the Bible did not say such things.

And in geometry, it does not matter what rotate around what, you can literaly make the world coordinates (Intro to Computer Graphics: Coordinate Systems) centered at moon and all will be rotating around moon.

And regarding Dinosaurs, no one know exactly how old they are. There were one scientist found dino bones that still have inner tissues in soft state, and the evidence was quickly drawn out by criticism that it is impossible. There was a land scape (somewhat similar to grand canon) and the age of it shrink from millions to 10x thousands.
 
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dcalling

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Adam & Eve lived in the Garden of Eden 5990 years ago. Science tells us that it took God 12.9 billion years to create Adam and Eve. We are told a day in Genesis is a literal 24 hour day. Yet that day contains all time and all the ages. This is known as a paradigm or an archetype.

For me it is the most easy to explain Genesis as one day equals 1,000 years. It is complicated to explain a day as a billion years because from that perspective each day is half the length of the day before it.

Everything can be explained and there is no conflict between science and the Bible. Even if there are people that lack understanding.

Carl Sagan and Neil Degrass Tyson talks about how in the beginning the universe was mostly hydrogen and helium with a little bit of lithium and beryllium. In the stars the elements were made. Even though the universe was expanding stars were still being formed. Tyson has a real nice book he just wrote on this. Also Gerald Schroeder has some interesting teaching online about the age of the universe.

Remember real scientific evidences must be repeatable, testable and verifiable, so the age of earth is at best an rough estimate (we estimate the age from current scientific evidences), the estimation process can be far away from truth. What Degrass said is only a theory (not tested one), so no one knows how much we can trust on that (it could be how the beginning was, but most likely it is not since we are nothing compare to God).

And, it is not until several 'days' later that God created Sun and moon, so before that, the length of day is not determined (i.e. the first night is when there is no light, and between no light and light created by God, it could be trillions of years or just a flash). Even on the day God created the sun, it could either mean the 24 hour day starts count distinctly or God starting to accelerate the earth around sun, which will make the day much longer.
 
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DamianWarS

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An interesting idea regarding evolution/Christian debate.

Christians generally take the side that the earth is around 6,000 years old.

However, using a comparative interpretation of Adam's age, we can assume the earth is not 6,000 years old. But perhaps the age of time is 6,000 years.

We can assume Adam wasn't created as a fetus or infant (no womb for him to grow). Then most likely he was created in his 20's or 30's. Regardless, the central point is he wasn't created at age 1.

We can apply this same question to the earth. Were the rocks, trees, water, sun, etc., created at age 1? 10? 1000? 1 million?

things don't work out that well. for example, light is spoken into being on day 1 but the sun is created on day 4. So now are we saying this was 3/4 thousand years? maybe 3/4 million? There are those who try and force reconcile Gen 1 and 2 together and claim the plants didn't start growing until man came in the picture (they were dormant in the ground). this might work for a few days but not for a few thousand days or worse millions of years. What exactly did all the animals eat that were supposedly all herbivores before the fall? then stuff gets added in saying "the nutrients in the air were so saturated they didn't need to eat..." well that sound a lot of "a wizard did it" type answer.

The issue with the gap theory and other theories is they are trying to reconcile the text or "fix it" to agree with science and in the end make something that neither creation or science agrees with and at the expense of the text. The text doesn't say it so why are we inserting it?

The most responsible way of interpreting the text is the same way you would approach a non-literal account (even if you think it's literal). In non-literal accounts only the details presented are imported and all details not mentioned have no relevancy. non-literal accounts don't care about inconsistencies and things are just the way they are and no questions are needed. So stop asking the questions or trying to fix the account and just focus on the words that are there not the words that are not there.
 
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Yekcidmij

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And in geometry, it does not matter what rotate around what, you can literaly make the world coordinates (Intro to Computer Graphics: Coordinate Systems) centered at moon and all will be rotating around moon.

But regardless of which coordinate system you prefer, celestial objects still follow Newton and Kepler's laws of motion and gravity. So, if you chose the center of the moon for the origin of your coordinate system, it will still be the case that the moon is following the laws of motion and so it will be inaccurate to say every object in the universe is orbiting around a stationary moon.


Two-Body Problem -- from Eric Weisstein's World of Physics

.
 
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JIMINZ

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It is the people on earth (what you called the church) that assumed sun rotated around the earth, the Bible did not say such things.

That is just my point, the Bible says nothing of the sort, but the Church taught that it did and when Galileo said it didn't the Church put him on trial for

HERESY
Opinion or doctrine at variance with the orthodox or accepted doctrine, especially of a church or religious system.

The maintaining of such an opinion or doctrine.

Roman Catholic Church. the willful and persistent rejection of any article of faith by a baptized member of the church.

Any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs, customs, etc.


Trial and second judgment of Galileo 1633 - Responding to mounting controversy over theology, astronomy and philosophy, the Roman Inquisition tried Galileo in 1633 and found him "vehemently suspect of heresy", sentencing him to indefinite imprisonment. Galileo was kept under house arrest until his death in 1642.

As you can see, it was the Church not the people, the people only voiced what the Church was teaching.

Therefore the Church was wrong then , and it's wrong now, about the age of the earth.
 
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His student

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It's an attempt to argue away the age of the universe (or earth) by asserting that everything was created with the appearance of age.
Just like the Bible says of Adam, the tree with fruit and everything else?
it would amount to false memory, Adam having memories of a childhood that never happened.
Why would that be?
Because the evidence of age we see in creation involves not merely things merely seeming that way, but indeed of events happening--which never did happen
No it does not. Seeming that way (as in the case of Adam and the tree with fruit) is all we see.

In fact we are told that it just seemed that the tree and Adam and Eve were older than they were. Believe God or not on the matter.
Because the evidence of age we see in creation involves not merely things merely seeming that way, but indeed of events happening--which never did happen if the Omphalos Argument is true.
No it does not.

It gives evidence of the effects of age when aging didn't happen. Just as we are told in the Bible account.
We see the light from stars from billions of light years away. The Omphalos Argument says those stars never existed.
No it does not. They may well not exist now - but we have no way of knowing either from science or from the biblical account.
The Omphalos Argument results in saying that events with clear records never actually happened. Things that we have records and evidence of don't actually exist.
Simply not so.

The argument simply tells us that other things are just as they were with Adam and Eve, the tree, and the fruit in the Bible account.

But wouldn't that be like God tricking us to believe Earth is older than it is?
No - it would be like God creating the universe fully grown and functioning just as He did Adam and Eve.
If God is willing to deceive in this manner, who's to say that everything wasn't created yesterday (or worse, 5 seconds ago) with the same sort of appearance of age?
The Bible?
 
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Yekcidmij

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No it does not. They may well not exist now - but we have no way of knowing either from science or from the biblical account.

Are you saying we have now way of knowing if the stars we observe in the sky are really there?
 
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His student

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I think it's clear you don't understand the argument.
No - I think it's clear that I do understand and that the Bible tells us how to resolve that argument.

Just believe that the things we are observing now are of the same nature as Adam, Eve, the tree, and the fruit would have been had we been there to examine them.
Are you saying we have now way of knowing if the stars we observe in the sky are really there?
Yes - with the ones far away - which are the ones we are talking about.

E.g. - we can actually see that the sun exists. We cannot for the farthest star.
 
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