Which "Christians" will not be saved?

[Eddie Ramos]

But what about the ones in the general population of Christendom?

This is a question that has widely been ignored for the most part because most self proclaimed Christians give no thought to their salvation. In other words, once they "ABC" (accept, believe and confess), they believe that this has secured salvation for them, when it has not. There is not a single thing any man must do to enter into the kingdom of God, for any act of obedience to a commandment of God is a work, and none are saved by their own works. God has chosen a people for himself to become saved (the elect) and He has indeed saved them. But what most do not understand is that every part of salvation is all the work of God from start to finish.

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Most self professed Christians trust in something they have done in order to become saved, the Pharisees made than same mistake.

Luke 18:10-13
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week (twice in the Sabbath), I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

The words, "I fast" and "I give tithes" are pointing to the keeping of the law. Essentially what this Pharisee was doing was trusting in his works. Well, self professed Christians do the same thing but they don't realize it. They trust in the fact that they have kept a commandment of God and yet think it is not a work. God commands to believe and people obey that commandment and think that that saved them, but it doesn't. God even gives us a crystal clear picture of this tremendous dilemma which the churches have engrained into their followers of believing in order to become saved.

Acts 8:13
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

This man Simon who was a sorcerer, made the decision to believe and be baptized. Now if he had done this at an altar call in a church, he would have been guaranteed to be a child of God by the pastor because of what Simon did. But as we know, Simon never became saved.

Acts 8:23
For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

This is a huge red flag which has gone ingored and so people make themselves professed believers all the time, but in the end, it amounts to nothing because they are still in their sins and have to pay for them with their death.

 

[hedrick]

This is a huge red flag which has gone ingored and so people make themselves professed believers all the time, but in the end, it amounts to nothing because they are still in their sins and have to pay for them with their death.

This is an ironic posting. You're saying that salvation depends entirely upon God, but that most Christians aren't saved because they've made an error in how they understand their faith.

Frankly, if we have to get our theology exactly right, this is worse than having to do works.

 

[Eddie Ramos]

Hello Mr. hedrick. Most self professed Christians aren't unsaved because of any doctrinal errors they make. They (along with anyone else who is unsaved) are unsaved because of their sins. I guess what I was trying to say was that what they believe to be a path to salvation is based on erroneous doctrines. They develop many ways (doctrines) to God and trust in those ways (doctrines), yet they are still in their sins (unsaved). Developing false doctrines wasn't the cause of their perishing, sin was.

In short, correct or incorrect doctrine never saved anyone. The truth is that if we are among the sheep and saved, God will ultimately and surely bring us into correct doctrine if we have the mental capacity to understand it. And even if we don't understand anything about the Bible, God was able to save his chosen people nonetheless, like a child in the womb (i.e. John the baptist) or a thief on the cross in his last hour of life.

 

[BCsenior]

Well, the obvious place to start is with this ...
Habitual (unrepentant) sinners will NOT make it into heaven!
... until such time as they sincerely confess their sins to God
and repent (stop doing those sins).

 

[hedrick]

Well, the obvious place to start is with this ...
Habitual (unrepentant) sinners will NOT make it into heaven!
... until such time as they sincerely confess their sins to God
and repent (stop doing those sins).

If you can find someone who has stopped all sin, good luck. This is a misuse of Rom 6:16-23. Paul is not telling people what they need to do to be saved. They are already Christ's, and he addresses them as such. He is telling them that as Christ has changed their hearts, that needs to be reflected in their behavior. That's clear throughout the passage.

 

[timothyu]

Paul is not telling people what they need to do to be saved. They are already Christ's, and he addresses them as such.

Because they chose the Kingdom of God over the world of man.

 

[eleos1954]

They say we will have three surprises in Heaven. The people that are not there that we were sure would be there. The people that are there that we were sure were not going to heaven and we will be most surprised that we made it to heaven.

"8 And in all the land, declares the LORD, two-thirds will be cut off and perish, but a third will be left in it. 9 This third I will bring through the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold.They will call on My name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’” Zech 13:9

This scripture is clearly about Israel under the old covenant. Still I believe this applies to us today and one third of all people, tribe, tongues and nations will be saved. Jesus talks about Few will be saved and Many will perish. In the Greek Few means less then the majority and this could mean 1/3. Even though we know a remnant is 10%. When God repopulates the earth 90% is destroyed and 10% remains. So it could be that only 10% will make it through the tribulation to repopulate the earth.

The passage you are talking about clearly has to do with lawlessness. There are a lot of people in the church today that believe we are not under the law and so we can do whatever we want to do and still be saved. Jesus makes it clear that lawless people will not enter into the kingdom.

So it could be that only 10% will make it through the tribulation to repopulate the earth.

There isn't going to be any repopulation (ie procreation).

Matthew 22:30

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

 

[joshua 1 9]

There isn't going to be any repopulation (ie procreation).

I was referring to the Earth during the 1,000 year reign of Christ. This will be a golden era. A time of peace and prosperity.

 

[eleos1954]

I was referring to the Earth during the 1,000 year reign of Christ. This will be a golden era. A time of peace and prosperity.

This 1,000 year reign takes place in heaven, not on earth.

You can open another thread if you want, as we are getting off topic, so I digress. ;o)

 

[joshua 1 9]

This 1,000 year reign takes place in heaven, not on earth.

You can open another thread if you want, as we are getting off topic, so I digress. ;o)

You are cherry picking. The conversation has to do with Israel and the Gentiles. What God did with Israel under the Old Covenant He is now doing with the gentiles under the new covenant. One is a shadow and a type or a paradigm of the other. God works with archetypes in the Bible. We can not talk about the salvation of the gentiles in the NT if we do not talk about the salvation of the Hebrews in the OT.

 

[eleos1954]

You are cherry picking. The conversation has to do with Israel and the Gentiles. What God did with Israel under the Old Covenant He is now doing with the gentiles under the new covenant. One is a shadow and a type or a paradigm of the other. God works with archetypes in the Bible. We can not talk about the salvation of the gentiles in the NT if we do not talk about the salvation of the Hebrews in the OT.

ok ... everyone is saved the same way .. faith ... OT people saved by their faith in the Messiah to come ... same as us .... faith in Jesus and His return, and all (saved) will be with Him when He returns.

What is faith? Believing everything God said and in doing so He changes our lives over our lifetime.

 

[joshua 1 9]

ok ... everyone is saved the same way .. faith ... OT people saved by their faith in the Messiah to come ... same as us .... faith in Jesus and His return, and all (saved) will be with Him when He returns.

What is faith? Believing everything God said and in doing so He changes our lives over our lifetime.

Our faith does not save us. Salvation is a work of God in us. Our Job is yield and receive what God has for us. WE have to make a choice. Choose life or death, sickness or health, blessing or curse, poverty or prosperity and so very many more choices we make in life.

At Calvary Jesus said it is finished. Yet we were not even born. His finished work has to do a work in us. We have to be washed and cleansed in the Blood of Jesus. Our Garment our Flesh has to be cleansed. Only through the Blood of Jesus are we saved.

IF we are saved then the resurrection power of God is already at work in us and in our lives. To raise us up from death to life. From dead works to the living God.

Faith is a gift and a fruit. If we are saved then all of the fruit of the spirit is being produced in us. Love, Joy Peace, Patience Kindness Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self Control. If the tree does not produce fruit then it is cut down and thrown into the fire. A tree produces fruit when it is whole, complete and mature in due season.

I spouted 1500 seeds in the early spring. It has been 4 months now and I have sun flowers that are 12 & 14 feet high. Yet there are still plants that have not produced flowers yet after all this time. There are early bloomers and late bloomers. Sometimes I get tired of waiting and I pull them out of the ground and throw them away. Yet God has infinite patience to wait on us to flower and produce fruit.

At the harvest we will know who is and who is not saved. It is the angels that will make that determination. They will decide who is producing fruit worth of repentance and who is not producing fruit.

 

[eleos1954]

Our faith does not save us. Salvation is a work of God in us. Our Job is yield and receive what God has for us. WE have to make a choice. Choose life or death, sickness or health, blessing or curse, poverty or prosperity and so very many more choices we make in life.

At Calvary Jesus said it is finished. Yet we were not even born. His finished work has to do a work in us. We have to be washed and cleansed in the Blood of Jesus. Our Garment our Flesh has to be cleansed. Only through the Blood of Jesus are we saved.

IF we are saved then the resurrection power of God is already at work in us and in our lives. To raise us up from death to life. From dead works to the living God.

Faith is a gift and a fruit. If we are saved then all of the fruit of the spirit is being produced in us. Love, Joy Peace, Patience Kindness Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self Control. If the tree does not produce fruit then it is cut down and thrown into the fire. A tree produces fruit when it is whole, complete and mature in due season.

I spouted 1500 seeds in the early spring. It has been 4 months now and I have sun flowers that are 12 & 14 feet high. Yet there are still plants that have not produced flowers yet after all this time. There are early bloomers and late bloomers. Sometimes I get tired of waiting and I pull them out of the ground and throw them away. Yet God has infinite patience to wait on us to flower and produce fruit.

At the harvest we will know who is and who is not saved. It is the angels that will make that determination. They will decide who is producing fruit worth of repentance and who is not producing fruit.

Hebrews 12:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith (as a gift); who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Again Faith is believing all that God/Jesus said. Yes, faith is a gift from God ... and people in the OT received that gift as well.

Romans 4:3
For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

The angels do the work of the Lord. The Lord determines who is or is not in the book of life.

At Calvary Jesus said it is finished. Yet we were not even born. His finished work has to do a work in us. We have to be washed and cleansed in the Blood of Jesus. Our Garment our Flesh has to be cleansed. Only through the Blood of Jesus are we saved.

Absolutely!

 

[joshua 1 9]

gain Faith is believing all that God/Jesus said.

Faith is believing what God is actually saying to us. We are to have a personal relationship with God. We need to do more then believe what He is telling others. Esp when it gets passed from person to person and is not a first hand testimony. Abraham believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I.e. - in your opinion - what particular doctrine or lack of doctrine would likely form that God given line of division?

Most of all, most widespread worldwide, would be all the groups that lead to destruction that are the ones that do not repent and do not tell others in the group how to be saved, including the need for. true repentance after Godly sorrow.... Most people never even see Godly sorrow it seems, and might not even recognize it if they did.

 

[fhansen]

Most of us who post here in this forum are aware by now that there are tremendously diverse ideas of what it takes to make it to Heaven and escape Hell.

We know from the words of the Lord, if nowhere else in the scriptures, that there are a great many who consider themselves saved and even call Jesus their Lord who will be in for a rather rude awakening when they meet Him face to face.

I sincerely hope that the gospel net is so large that anyone who even names the name of Christ in any way will be saved. I just don't see that as being the case from the scriptures.

I suppose most Christians will agree about the out and out cults likely being lost _ with the exception of those who are in those cults of course.

But what about the ones in the general population of Christendom?

Being as careful as we possibly can to not say that any particular group as a whole is not saved (that's against the forum rules) - and understanding that obviously none of us here will be the final judge of these things - what is your general opinion as to where the line is when it comes to this rather upsetting truth about there not being salvation for all who name the name of Christ?

I.e. - in your opinion - what particular doctrine or lack of doctrine would likely form that God given line of division?

The people who are not among the "elect", who do not persevere, whose names are not written in the Book of Life, are not saved. Now, if we could just somehow get hold of that list...

 

[timothyu]

Now, if we could just somehow get hold of that list...

Meuller might have it.

 

[Soyeong]

Most of us who post here in this forum are aware by now that there are tremendously diverse ideas of what it takes to make it to Heaven and escape Hell.

We know from the words of the Lord, if nowhere else in the scriptures, that there are a great many who consider themselves saved and even call Jesus their Lord who will be in for a rather rude awakening when they meet Him face to face.

I sincerely hope that the gospel net is so large that anyone who even names the name of Christ in any way will be saved. I just don't see that as being the case from the scriptures.

I suppose most Christians will agree about the out and out cults likely being lost _ with the exception of those who are in those cults of course.

But what about the ones in the general population of Christendom?

Being as careful as we possibly can to not say that any particular group as a whole is not saved (that's against the forum rules) - and understanding that obviously none of us here will be the final judge of these things - what is your general opinion as to where the line is when it comes to this rather upsetting truth about there not being salvation for all who name the name of Christ?

I.e. - in your opinion - what particular doctrine or lack of doctrine would likely form that God given line of division?

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's Law through faith is what our salvation from living in disobedience to God's Law looks like. However, many Christians have partial obedience where they obey many of God's Laws, but not only refuse to repent from their disobedience to other laws, but actively teaching against obeying them.

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that there would be people who did things in his name, but whom he would tell to depart from him because they were workers of Lawlessness and because they didn't do the Father's will. God straightforwardly makes His will known through His Law (Psalms 40:8). Likewise, in 1 John 3:4-6, sin is the transgression of God's Law and those who continue to practice sin have never seen or known him. In 1 John 2:3-6, we known that we have come to know him if we obey his commandments, whoever says that they know him, but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the way that we can know that we are in Christ is that whoever is in Christ is obligated to walk in the same way he walked. Jesus was sinless, so walked in complete obedience to the Mosaic Law and did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced.

The Mosaic Law was given to teach us about who God is, how to walk in His ways, and how to express His character traits through our actions in accordance with His nature (Deuteronomy 10:12-13). There are many other verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, and many others. The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the character of God as it does to describe the character of God's Law, which is because it is God's instructions for how to express His character traits, such as with being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the Law (Matthew 23:23). Jesus is the exact imprint of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), so he expressed these character traits and other fruits of the Spirit through his actions and what that looked like was complete obedience to the Mosaic Law, so we that is how we should walk as he walked. God's Law is God's Word and Jesus is God's Word made flesh, so God did not just give His Law to His people, but also sent Jesus as the living embodiment of the Law and the personification of His character traits to fulfill all righteousness by teaching us how to express His character traits through our obedience to it so that through him we might partake of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4).

So by expressing God's character traits through our actions in obedience to God's Law, we are expressing our love for who God is, we are sanctifying His name, and we are acting as a light to the nations by testifying to them about who He is (Isaiah 49:6, Matthew 5:13-16). In Deuteronomy 4:5-8, the intended reaction from the nations seeing Israel's obedience to the Mosaic Law was to marvel at how great and wise He is, so again our obedience to God's Law is about testifying about who He is, which means that God's Law was intended to be used as a tool to evangelize the nations. So those who want nothing to do with the Mosaic Law want nothing to do with who Christ is, which is why it can be said that they don't really know him.

However, it is not the case that most Christians want nothing to do with the Mosaic Law because they are already living in obedience to many of its laws, so they can even have a good understanding of who Christ is, but without the Mosaic Law their understanding is incomplete. In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus warned that those who relaxed the least part of the Law or taught others to do the same would be called least in the Kingdom, whole those who obeyed the Law and taught others to do the same would be called great in the Kingdom, so it seems that there are some who relax some of the laws who will nevertheless still make it into the Kingdom, though there is still a point where someone can be deemed to be a worker of Lawlessness even when they think that they are serving God.

 

[prodromos]

“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[Wordkeeper]

If you can find someone who has stopped all sin, good luck. This is a misuse of Rom 6:16-23. Paul is not telling people what they need to do to be saved. They are already Christ's, and he addresses them as such. He is telling them that as Christ has changed their hearts, that needs to be reflected in their behavior. That's clear throughout the passage.

Irony, again. You say they are already belonging to Christ. Why should they then have to change their behavior?