WHY IS THERE SO MANY WARNINGS FROM GOD'S WORD ABOUT LOSING SALVATION IF IT IS NOT POSSIBLE??

[Sam91]

Sam, I appreciate your forthrightness with your story. And I'm sorry for all you have gone through.

Do I understand you that you are saying the false doctrine of losing salvation is what caused you so much anxiety, in thinking that there was no way back for you from losing salvation because of some sin? In other words, you believed your sin had caused you to lose your salvation?

Please forgive me if I misunderstand what your are saying. But, if what I am correctly understanding what you are saying, I have to say that is a truly tragic consequence of the false doctrine of losing salvation.

Also, it left me an insecure Christian (although throygh His mercy not lacking in belief) but the Lord has been bountiful enough to assure me through His word (scriptures) being backed up in life consistently over the last few years by circumstances He has put into order. He is the one who keeps me remaining in Him.

This has left me so deeply thankful and amazed at His goodness. It has also left me with a sense of His magnitude and power- we have a Sovereign, perfect and Holy God who can order billions of peoples lives and circumstances simultaneously. Moulding them, teaching them, disciplining them all for their benefit and His purpose. We can't see just how mighty He is in this life and not understand His glory; our minds and senses are far too clouded but one day we will!

I don't know which side of the debate is correct but I'm not concerned (except for the longer journey that others like me need to endure. However, it might be a blessing tgat I endured it). Leaning on my own understanding is not a good thing, it's easier and better to trust in Him. The Bible is clear enough in revealing Him and it isn't our wisdom that is important at the end of the day. Our own wisdom can be a snare and take our eyes off Him.

 

[A_Thinker]

Hi Dave, I can understand why many want to move on from HEBREWS 6:4-8. No one has been able to show that it is not referring to those who were once believers. If this is the case why would we want to move on from HEBREWS 6:4-8 as it directly shows that a believer can fall away from the faith back into a life of sin and lose salvation (scriptures provided verse by verse in post # 195 linked or post # 347 linked). Ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear. There is no verse that is more clear as HEBREWS 6:4-8 that shows that spirit filled believers can fall away from Gods' Word back into a life of sin to become unbelievers. To say otherwise is simply to deny God's Word.

HEBREWS 6:4-8 says that, if a christian loses their salvation, THEY CANNOT GET IT BACK.

Is that your position ?

 

[_Dave_]

Also, it left me an insecure Christian

It sounds like you might be open for learning.

One thing to keep in mind is that the eternal security passages in Scripture are a positive affirmation of God's grace and the power of the Holy Spirit to keep us.

The passages offered us by the losing-salvation folks are negative, basically taking away from God's grace and denying his promises to keep us. Taken as a whole, they make God out to be a liar about all the promises He makes in the positive affirmations of our eternal security.

The negative eternal security passages don't just make the positive affirmations go away. They are still there, but they get hand-waved away by the losing-salvation folks. However, they still mean something, and still need to be dealt with. Right?

That alone should give one pause to think when considering eternal security vs losing salvation. I know which side I would choose to be on.

 

[Sam91]

It sounds like you might be open for learning.

One thing to keep in mind is that the eternal security passages in Scripture are a positive affirmation of God's grace and the power of the Holy Spirit to keep us.

The passages offered us by the losing-salvation folks are negative, basically taking away from God's grace and denying his promises to keep us. Taken as a whole, they make God out to be a liar about all the promises He makes in the positive affirmations of our eternal security.

The negative eternal security passages don't just make the positive affirmations go away. They are still there, but they get hand-waved away by the losing-salvation folks. However, they still mean something, and still need to be dealt with. Right?

That alone should give one pause to think when considering eternal security vs losing salvation. I know which side I would choose to be on.

Yes, but I disagree that the warnings make God out to be a liar on the basis that I couldn't imagine thinking that He is and can't see eternal security in the way people do. I'd rather not go into my understanding of those affirmative verses publically for fear of causing someone to stumble and also because its nearly 2am. Hope I don't fall asleep at church tomorrow.

I'd love to be able to see it all from the eternal security side and maybe I will one day. However, I'm cautioned against recieving a different gospel from the one I was given and don't want itchy ears either. I can't change my convictions based on a good post or two. I can, however, read them and leave it in the Lord's hand and recognise He is what matters. Knowing that He will lead me into understanding eventually, if it's necessary. For the time being He will hold me fast and for that I'm grateful. Good night.

EDIT: As I was going to sleep I put 2Peter on audiobible because it was what I was supposed to read yesterday but I'm a day behind. 2 Peter 1 and 2 Peter 2 really back up how I see it.

Then this too from 2 Peter 3

14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

 

[JIMINZ]

Hi Dave, I can understand why many want to move on from HEBREWS 6:4-8. No one has been able to show that it is not referring to those who were once believers. If this is the case why would we want to move on from HEBREWS 6:4-8 as it directly shows that a believer can fall away from the faith back into a life of sin and lose salvation (scriptures provided verse by verse in post # 195 linked or post # 347 linked). Ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear. There is no verse that is more clear as HEBREWS 6:4-8 that shows that spirit filled believers can fall away from Gods' Word back into a life of sin to become unbelievers. To say otherwise is simply to deny God's Word.

What your saying then is, you cant come up with any other verse.

If your contention is, a Christian can fall away back into sin.

It does not say anywhere in the New testament, if a Believer falls away they become UN-BELIEVERS, they would only become sinners.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Paul, the writer; Jesus the Author was talking to everyone who are NOT true Christians... For it is Impossible if you are TRULY saved to Fall away. There are many that will call HIS name and HIS response will be, I do not know you.
In John 6:39 (KJV).."And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day."

Therefore, if you are truly saved and fall away, Jesus is a liar
and Jesus Christ is not a liar!

Today's churches (over 90%) have become apostate (a falling away) from the practices and commandments of Jesus Christ. Rem. Jesus tells us there will be tares and wheat within the same (brick & mortar) church. These who claim to be Christian and are not saved will not taste of Heaven.

Everyone needs to make sure what their position with Jesus Christ is. It is critical.

Blade

Nope HEBREWS 6:4-8 is talking abourt BELIEVERS who fell away from God's Word back into sin to become unbelievers. It says this directly in HEBREWS 6:4-6.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The reason that I'd like to move on to a different passage is because I, and countless others here, have shown you over and over again why the Hebrews 6 passage does not prove that a born-again, Bible-believing, Christian who is indwelt with the Holy Spirit can't lose his or her salvation. But you refuse to acknowledge our explanations, so we have reached the end of discussion of Hebrews 6. Right?

I'm just thinking that by expanding the discussion into a new arena we might be able to get past the stalemate and into some fresh discussion. Frankly, when a debate bogs down to where the arguments are repeating themselves, it becomes boring and a waste of time to continue.

So, help us out by offering another passage that you believe supports your losing-salvation belief, so we can continue the discussion.

Hmm well that is not true. You and those who believe as you do have not addressed HEBREWS 6:4-8 at all. Ignoring the scriptures do not make it dissappear. HEBREWS 6:4-8 is talking about spirit filled believers that fell away from the truth back into sin to become unbelievers. These are God's Words not mine. Why do you not believe it? Your not expanding the discussion your ignoring the scriptures here because you cannot respond to them.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

HEBREWS 6:4-8 says that, if a christian loses their salvation, THEY CANNOT GET IT BACK.

Is that your position ?

HEBREWS 6:4-8 does not say a Christian loses their salvation and cannot get it back. It says those who were once Chrsitian who left the faith to return back to a life of known unrepentant sin becoming unbelievers will lose their salvation. That is what God's Word says. They are God's Words not mine. As long as they stay in that lifestyle yes they cannot get their salvation back. This is different to the prodigal son who repents and returns to the father. No one who continues in known unrepentant sin will enter the kingdom of heaven because they reject the gift of God's dead son *ROMANS 6:23.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

What your saying then is, you cant come up with any other verse.

If your contention is, a Christian can fall away back into sin.

It does not say anywhere in the New testament, if a Believer falls away they become UN-BELIEVERS, they would only become sinners.

Not at all read all the scriptures in the OP. Salvation is condtional on BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD always in the present tense. Those who do not believe and follow God's WORD are not his Children but the chilfren of the devil *1 JOHN 3:3-10; 1 JOHN 2:3-4

 

[A_Thinker]

HEBREWS 6:4-8 does not say a Christian loses their salvation and cannot get it back. It says those who were once Chrsitian who left the faith to return back to a life of sin becoming unbelievers will lose their salvation. That is what God's Word says. They are God's Words not mine. As long as they stay in that lifestyle yes they cannot get their salvation back. This is different to the prodigal son who repents and returns to the father. No one who continues in known unrepentant sin will enter the kingdom of heaven because they reject the gift of God's dead son *ROMANS 6:23.

The actual text ...

Hebrews 6:4-6

4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and [then] fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The actual text ...

Hebrews 6:4-6

4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and [then] fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

It is "Impossible" because they have departed the faith and are living in known UNREPENTANT SIN!

HEBREWS 6:6 [6]and [then] fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Why? Because they have fallen away from the one true faith and returned back into a life of sin. There is no repentance or salvation while living a life of known unrepentant sin. The scriptures say that through sin they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. There is no salvation for those who continue in a life of known unrepentant sin and no longer believe and follow God's Word.

The warning is to believers not to fall away from the faith to become unbelievers and return back to a life of sin because those doing so are not in a saved state before God because they reject God's only plan of salvation.

There is only one way to salvation and that by believing and following God's Word. If you no longer believe and follow God's Word and return back to live a life of sin you have forsaken repentance to live a life of known unrepentant sin. If you have no repentance you have no salvation because repentance is one of the conditions of salvation.

If one were through repentance and confession of sin return to the one true faith for salvation which means leaving sin and returning to God than they have returned back to the one true path and no longer crucifying the lord afresh.

There is no repentance while living in a life of known unrepentant sin. That is why they are crucifying the Lord afresh.

Blessings

 

[MDC]

Not at all read all the scriptures in the OP. Salvation is condtional on BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD always in the present tense. Those who do not believe and follow God's WORD are not his Children but the chilfren of the devil *1 JOHN 3:3-10; 1 JOHN 2:3-4

No, the evidence and result of one being saved (salvation) is belief and enduring to the end in obedience. Salvation is conditioned in Christ and His merits of righteousness alone. Based on the foundation of Gods grace alone that saves and preserves His elect. The very concept of the doctrine of losing eternal life in Christ stems from a heart of unbelief. The idea rest in the fact that ones works of obedience forms the basis for determining ones salvation. Its absence of faith in the gospel gives the impression of faithfulness by obedience. But in reality it’s a form of self righteous law keeping that really doesn’t believe Christ saves anyone at all. It’s completely anti grace and anti gospel. What exactly do you believe according to the gospel that saves you from your sin when you believe there’s no guarantee that Christ can eternally save you apart from your works? If Christ isn’t sufficient to save apart from your works then what proof do you have that you are trusting in Christ to save you in the first place? Or proof you believe anything the gospel promises? This doctrine does make God a liar and completely contradicts the gospel promises

 

[_Dave_]

The very concept of the doctrine of losing eternal life in Christ stems from a heart of unbelief. The idea rest in the fact that ones works of obedience forms the basis for determining ones salvation.

That's really just it, isn't it. Those who believe in losing salvation have to somehow get around that they also believe in a works-based salvation; which is purely unbiblical.

And every argument they make just digs themselves deeper into a disbelieving heart, and they crucify Christ all over again, and again and again because they don't believe He did the job right the first time.

I'm actually feeling sad for them, but also angry at what their losing-salvation proselytizing does to people like Sam a few comments back, causing them to question their salvation merely for being human and committing a sin. Thinking about these false teachers brings to mind Matthew 18:6 which actually warns of a worse consequence than just believing a false doctrine.

It's looking like being an activist losing-salvation advocate actually might be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[JIMINZ]

they have fallen away from the one true faith and returned back into a life of sin. There is no repentance or salvation while living a life of known unrepentant sin. The scriptures say that through sin they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. There is no salvation for those who continue in a life of known unrepentant sin and no longer believe and follow God's Word.

If one were through repentance and confession of sin return to the one true faith for salvation which means leaving sin and returning to God than they have returned back to the one true path and no longer crucifying the lord afresh.

There is no repentance while living in a life of known unrepentant sin. That is why they are crucifying the Lord afresh.

RE-READ those utterly ridiculous statements made by you.

Do you not read scripture because, when you try to explain it, it never does come out the way it is so clearly written.

I will highlight it for you because your doctrine is wacked.

Heb 6:4-6
4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

There is absolutely nothing written anywhere which states what you have just put forward, even these very Verses you so profoundly screwed up.

 

[JIMINZ]

Works in the life of the Christian are the EVIDENCE of Salvation, Salvation is what brings about WORKS, without Salvation there can be no WORKS.

Eph 2:8-10
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


We never hear of the Good Works of the Wicked.

These are the wicked.

Rom. 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Isa. 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;

 

[LoveGodsWord]

RE-READ those utterly ridiculous statements made by you.

Do you not read scripture because, when you try to explain it, it never does come out the way it is so clearly written.

I will highlight it for you because your doctrine is wacked.

Heb 6:4-6
4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

There is absolutely nothing written anywhere which states what you have just put forward, even these very Verses you so profoundly screwed up.

Your confused. Let's break it down and make it more simple. How can you have repentance while living in known unrepentant sin? You cannot it is impossible because you are UNREPENTANT. There is only one path to salvation. There is no salvation in unrepentant sin.

 

[Guojing]

Yes, but I disagree that the warnings make God out to be a liar on the basis that I couldn't imagine thinking that He is and can't see eternal security in the way people do. I'd rather not go into my understanding of those affirmative verses publically for fear of causing someone to stumble and also because its nearly 2am. Hope I don't fall asleep at church tomorrow.

I'd love to be able to see it all from the eternal security side and maybe I will one day. However, I'm cautioned against recieving a different gospel from the one I was given and don't want itchy ears either. I can't change my convictions based on a good post or two. I can, however, read them and leave it in the Lord's hand and recognise He is what matters. Knowing that He will lead me into understanding eventually, if it's necessary. For the time being He will hold me fast and for that I'm grateful. Good night.

EDIT: As I was going to sleep I put 2Peter on audiobible because it was what I was supposed to read yesterday but I'm a day behind. 2 Peter 1 and 2 Peter 2 really back up how I see it.

Then this too from 2 Peter 3

14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

So sorry to hear that the Hebrews passage caused you so much grief. My equivalent was Mark 16:16 which was heavily preached by the Church of Christ and made me doubt whether I was truly saved too, since I was not water baptized then.

As for that Hebrews passage, a way to understand is that its referring to the post rapture period, during the Tribulation, where if people who believe Jesus accept the mark of the beast, then yes, you can argue that it is a wilful sin and hence no salvation is possible for them. Of course this also depends on how you interpret Revelations 14:9-13 too.

That Hebrews passage will not come to play during the church age, which is the period now.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Not at all read all the scriptures in the OP. Salvation is condtional on BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD always in the present tense. Those who do not believe and follow God's WORD are not his Children but the chilfren of the devil *1 JOHN 3:3-10; 1 JOHN 2:3-4

Your response...

No, the evidence and result of one being saved (salvation) is belief and enduring to the end in obedience. Salvation is conditioned in Christ and His merits of righteousness alone. Based on the foundation of Gods grace alone that saves and preserves His elect. The very concept of the doctrine of losing eternal life in Christ stems from a heart of unbelief. The idea rest in the fact that ones works of obedience forms the basis for determining ones salvation. Its absence of faith in the gospel gives the impression of faithfulness by obedience. But in reality it’s a form of self righteous law keeping that really doesn’t believe Christ saves anyone at all. It’s completely anti grace and anti gospel. What exactly do you believe according to the gospel that saves you from your sin when you believe there’s no guarantee that Christ can eternally save you apart from your works? If Christ isn’t sufficient to save apart from your works then what proof do you have that you are trusting in Christ to save you in the first place? Or proof you believe anything the gospel promises? This doctrine does make God a liar and completely contradicts the gospel promises

Actually YEP! Salvation is condtional on believing and following God's Word. Sounds like the right time for making a new thread on condtional salvation. To be honest though I am not sure why you are saying no than right after agreeing with me by saying the evidence and result of one being saved (salvation) is belief and enduring to the end in obedience. That is what I have pretty much always posted.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

That's really just it, isn't it. Those who believe in losing salvation have to somehow get around that they also believe in a works-based salvation; which is purely unbiblical.

It is God's Word that teaches that salvation is conditional on BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's Word not me. I think it would be a good idea to start a new thread on this topic. It is all through Gods Word from GENESIS to REVELATIONS. What is unbiblical is the false doctrine of once saved always saved, this has it's origin from the father of lies first spoken in the garden of eden to Eve which caused the fall of mankind. Please see...

WAS THE FIRST LIE IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN YOU CAN BREAK GOD'S LAW AND NOT SURELY DIE?

And every argument they make just digs themselves deeper into a disbelieving heart, and they crucify Christ all over again, and again and again because they don't believe He did the job right the first time.

Yet here you still are and have yet to address post # 195 linked in relation to HEBREWS 6:4-8 that shows that SPIRIT FILLED BELIEVERS and FALL AWAY from the FAITH into a life of known UNREPENTANT SIN to become UNBELIEVERS. So please let us know when you have some scriptures to share. So far all I hear are your words arguing with Gods' Word. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it. All those who continue in known unrepentant sin will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN because crucify the Lord afresh putting him to open shame and reject the gift of God's dear son *HERBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-31; ROMANS 6:23. ROMANS 8:13.

I'm actually feeling sad for them, but also angry at what their losing-salvation proselytizing does to people like Sam a few comments back, causing them to question their salvation merely for being human and committing a sin. Thinking about these false teachers brings to mind Matthew 18:6 which actually warns of a worse consequence than just believing a false doctrine. It's looking like being an activist losing-salvation advocate actually might be a self-fulfilling prophecy

Your better off feeling sad for yourself. God's WORD says many will come to me at that day saying Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity (SIN). Agreeing with HEBREWS 6:4-8. These people had a form of godliness but denied the power of God to save them from their sins *2 TIMOTHY 3:5. This is the difference between the wheat and the tares *MATTHEW 13:24-30 and the choldren of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10
JESUS came to save us from sin not to continue in it *JOHN 8:31-26. As God's Word says if we continue in sin we will die *ROMANS 8:13; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 6:4-8 because we reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23.

Yep, would not want to be in a place thinking I am in a saved state before God only to find I was never saved to begin with because I reject God's Word when it was presented to me. That would be something to be pretty sad about don't you think *MATTHEW 8:12?

Gods Sheep Hear His Voice (the Word). Those who are not His Sheep do not hear His Voice.

 

[Sam91]

What your saying then is, you cant come up with any other verse.

If your contention is, a Christian can fall away back into sin.

It does not say anywhere in the New testament, if a Believer falls away they become UN-BELIEVERS, they would only become sinners.

Read 2 Peter