How Hard Determinism turns God into the devil and Grace into a myth.

[Grip Docility]

To say that Creation has a will that act against God's will, is to say that God is not all-knowing... Nor all powerful, or whatever (either)...

And I need to know who your talking about, God the Father, God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit...

There are so many contradictions to what your saying and what you believe that I do not know where to begin, and your making it much more complicated than it actually is or needs to be also...

Your very confused IOW's...

And that comes from your own personal need and judgement to believe that if God is responsible for, and knew about all the evil that would happen, then He is evil... and that is just so very wrong, I don't even know where to begin with that also... You need to repent Grip...

But ignore what I said, I don't really care, you choose to be blind because you can't believe God is responsible for evil, without Him being evil... and that is not a belief I share, so...

And that is due to a personal problem residing in you...

You wrestling with and against the truth when you really don't have to...

It's just hard for you to accept, but that is no one's fault but your own Grip...

God Bless!

IMO

There are so many instances in scripture of God’s will being rebelled Against by mankind.

The Good King does not will rebellion. He sees to it that rebellion is utilized to bring about Good and maybe even turn a heart back to Him that He May give abundant life, but to say God is guilty of the charge of our poor decisions just doesn’t fit the bill.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, brother in Him.

 

[Hammster]

IMO

There are so many instances in scripture of God’s will being rebelled Against by mankind.

The Good King does not will rebellion. He sees to it that rebellion is utilized to bring about Good and maybe even turn a heart back to Him that He May give abundant life, but to say God is guilty of the charge of our poor decisions just doesn’t fit the bill.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, brother in Him.

Can you show from scripture where God utilized a rebellion to bring about good?

 

[Neogaia777]

IMO

There are so many instances in scripture of God’s will being rebelled Against by mankind.

The Good King does not will rebellion. He sees to it that rebellion is utilized to bring about Good and maybe even turn a heart back to Him that He May give abundant life, but to say God is guilty of the charge of our poor decisions just doesn’t fit the bill.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, brother in Him.

Yes and it depends on who your talking about, God the Father, God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit...

And that's about as far as I can go with it, or as much as I can say about it, K...?

I do love ya Grip,

Wishing you all the best,

God Bless!

 

[nolidad]

What specifically draws a man to Christ?

God the Father!

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now the what God uses is unique to each individual.

 

[sdowney717]

God the Father!

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now the what God uses is unique to each individual.

And God must grant someone to come to Christ.
And God does not grant that all come to Christ.
Not everyone on these forums can receive that truth!
Those of his disciples who left off following Christ were not granted to belong to Christ by God, which is why they departed from Christ in unbelief.

John 6
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you?
62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

 

[Grip Docility]

Can you show from scripture where God utilized a rebellion to bring about good?

1 Corinthians 2:8

Numbers 14:9

Romans 8:28

 

[Grip Docility]

God the Father!

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now the what God uses is unique to each individual.

Didn’t the Father Draw all mankind through the Son?

John 3:14-36

 

[Hammster]

1 Corinthians 2:8

Numbers 14:9

Romans 8:28

That’s not showing from scripture. That quoting verses. You wouldn’t accept that type of response from me. Romans 8:28? You must be a Calvinist.

 

[Hammster]

Didn’t the Father Draw all mankind through the Son?

John 3:14-36

Obviously not.

 

[grafted branch]

Right to it... Hard Determinism unapologetically makes all of Creation specifically performing God’s will.

The Devil is merely an extension of God’s will, within Hard Determinism, existing and torturing to ultimately bring Glory to God, within Hard Determinism.

Grace is UNMERITED FAVOR. If all is God’s will, then there is no need for Grace, as even the Wicked are performing God’s will, which means they are not in rebellion of God and thusly without the need for grace.

If I hold a gun to Bob’s head and force him to kill someone innocent, Bob still has a choice to be shot or kill the innocent someone.

If I were to mind control Bob to shoot someone innocent, Bob is guiltless and the guilt of the crime rests on my head.

To say... “but if God mind controlled Bob to kill someone innocent, God is guiltless of the crime”, is to make God duplicitous by God’s own standards that He meticulously lays out in all of scripture. This is to say that Hard Determinism accepts the idea that God is Double Minded!

Hi Grip Docility,

I think from God’s perspective there is hard determinism, or else God doesn’t have perfect foreknowledge. And if God doesn’t have perfect foreknowledge then future prophecies would be in doubt. So whether mankind has free will or not God knows what a person will do before that person is created and from Gods perspective that person will do exactly what God foreknew he would do.

As for the issue of God being duplicitous, if there is universal atonement then God was guilty of every sin ever committed and he paid for them on the cross. However, generally speaking people who believe in election believe in limited atonement; so your point is valid for those people. But consider this also; if Bob killed someone by Bob’s own free will and Bob never became a believer, when Bob dies does he still have to pay for his sin? If universal atonement occurred then that sin has already been paid for by Christ and if Bob has to pay for it again then God is still duplicitous.

 

[Grip Docility]

Obviously not.

Hi Grip Docility,

I think from God’s perspective there is hard determinism, or else God doesn’t have perfect foreknowledge. And if God doesn’t have perfect foreknowledge then future prophecies would be in doubt. So whether mankind has free will or not God knows what a person will do before that person is created and from Gods perspective that person will do exactly what God foreknew he would do.

As for the issue of God being duplicitous, if there is universal atonement then God was guilty of every sin ever committed and he paid for them on the cross. However, generally speaking people who believe in election believe in limited atonement; so your point is valid for those people. But consider this also; if Bob killed someone by Bob’s own free will and Bob never became a believer, when Bob dies does he still have to pay for his sin? If universal atonement occurred then that sin has already been paid for by Christ and if Bob has to pay for it again then God is still duplicitous.

IMO

This is simple. Jesus died for all, not all humble themselves... (James 4:10) before Jesus and come to Jesus...

The old Universal Atonement would mean Universal Salvation Gig... is simply a blind eye to LBF.

It’s rhetoric designed to deny that God gave Autonomy to Creation.

Yet... man has a choice in the matter per scripture.

63 Bible verses about Rejection Of God, Results Of

 

[Hammster]

IMO

This is simple. Jesus died for all, not all humble themselves... (James 4:10) before Jesus and come to Jesus...

The old Universal Atonement would mean Universal Salvation Gig... is simply a blind eye to LBF.

It’s rhetoric designed to deny that God gave Autonomy to Creation.

Yet... man has a choice in the matter per scripture.

63 Bible verses about Rejection Of God, Results Of

I’ve never said that man doesn’t have a choice.

 

[Grip Docility]

I’ve never said that man doesn’t have a choice.

I respect and appreciate this. You kind of blow my mind, sometimes.

I’ve been picking up on this and sincerely it gives me peace.

 

[Grip Docility]

That’s not showing from scripture. That quoting verses. You wouldn’t accept that type of response from me. Romans 8:28? You must be a Calvinist.

As always, I believe we continually challenge one another to raise the debate, discussion and listening bar... and this response from you is no exception. I appreciate your perpetual challenge for me to raise the bar.

But, and this is a major exception... you didn’t have to get that nasty with me at the very last sentence!

 

[Neogaia777]

Did Jesus have "free will" or did He realize He really did not...?

Yes or no...?

And consequently that none of us really have or do, ever, nor ever really have or ever did, ect, compared to the "True All Father God"...? Or our Father in Heaven...?

Yes or No...?

God Bless!

 

[Grip Docility]

Did Jesus have "free will" or did He realize He really did not...?

Yes or no...?

And consequently that none of us really have or do, ever, nor ever really have or ever did, ect, compared to the "True All Father God"...? Or our Father in Heaven...?

Yes or No...?

God Bless!

Jesus has/had Free Will.

Philippians 2

 

[Hammster]

As always, I believe we continually challenge one another to raise the debate, discussion and listening bar... and this response from you is no exception. I appreciate your perpetual challenge for me to raise the bar.

But, and this is a major exception... you didn’t have to get that nasty with me at the very last sentence!

I had to get your attention.

So should I expect some sort of exposition of those verses?

 

[Grip Docility]

I had to get your attention.

So should I expect some sort of exposition of those verses?

I’ll exegete those if you exegete 2 Peter 3:9

Deal?

 

[Hammster]

I’ll exegete those if you exegete 2 Peter 3:9

Deal?

Why do you always try to shift the burden? This is still your OP.

 

[Grip Docility]

Why do you always try to shift the burden? This is still your OP.

I’m honestly trying to move away from Exegesis. I enjoy it, but I feel like too much is providing a little too much interpretive provision for others. That’s sincere. 1 John 2:27 is good enough.