(General note for others: I may not be very active today but I am glad to get in this reply.)
Well, you could say that even following the will of another would still be your choice. If someone points a gun at your head and threatening you to do something, you're still the one making the choice to comply or not. It wouldn't really make sense to say your will wasn't free just because your choice was influenced by something outside yourself. Because that's the thing I can't reconcile with "free" will: you don't make choices out of thin air. There will always be a reason you do something, and that reason has its own reason and so forth. We'll say an alcoholic doesn't have truly free will (when it comes to drinking) because of his addiction/sickness - basically, we see the reasons why he does it. But is there really a fundamental difference between choosing to drink or choosing take a walk instead? Aren't they both expressions of the guy's will in that moment?
Your will determines your choice. But what determines your will? Can you choose to prefer something?
Basically, I don't see how the law of cause and effect allows for free will.
I am an alcoholic -- I just finished a year sober, and I have gone back to drinking moderately (Yes, I know, that is probably a recipe for disaster). However, I do think that addicts & alcoholics have free will (I am open to the idea that there might be an absolutely extreme case where there isn't much in the way of free will)... It's simply a matter of them having disordered priorities.
It is definitely true that we do not make choices out of thin air, and some are definitely born at a massive disadvantage, but I think it is not actually unique to have a lot of theological thoguths justifying the weaknesses of others.
It's also partly why we are Christians... We believe that we are sinners, and we may not actually be able to perfectly fix ourselves, but that Christ will take away our sins and make us clean -- and even our future stumbles will be OK as long as we are repentant of them.
I do believe in mercy.
I'm not so sure about that either
I don't claim to have a perfect sense of justice, but I've got some of the basics down I guess, and choosing to create imperfect people and then judging them for being imperfect just doesn't compute with me. Also, justice isn't really justice if it's only applied to a few.
And if I understand the Christian worldview (to the degree that there is a common one), the idea is that most will be judged according to their actions, while a few will get grace instead. Of course, if you believe in hell as eternal torment, nobody is getting any justice - it's either infinitely good or infinitely bad, none of which can be said to be justice.
It is true that hell is eternal and that it comes off as lopsided. However, few people think about how lopsided heaven is: it is impossible for us to actually be justified by works because all of our works are as filthy rags before God ([bible]Isaiah 64:6[/bible]).
In anothe rsense, it is not lopsided because on Earth we are building the character that will follow us into eternity. In an Orthodox description of hell I recently consulted they spoke about how the people in hell are there because they are not capable of the changes necessary to inherit the Kingdom of God.
Thus, I think of hell as a choice that some of us make.
I've heard about that from time to time, that our suffering brings about righteousness. But it was my understanding of the gospel that it's Christ's suffering that did that. I know there are many ways to interpret scripture, but I have a hard time believing Paul and those guys meant Jesus paid for some of our sins but left a bit that we have to "make up for".
This makes me think, though, of Romans 5:3-5:
"More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us."
Again, it's my understanding of the gospel that all believers are saints. I'm not sure that degrees of holiness is a biblical concept, but do correct me if I'm wrong.
Right -- every person who goes to Heaven is considered a Saint. The thief on the cross (properly known as 'the Good Thief') is a Saint. The only difference between St. Porphyrios and my grandmother, a strong Christian, is that we know St. Porphyrios has perofrmed miracles indicating that he made it into Heaven and looks over us even now, whereas there is not proof or recognition of my grandmother to be able to say she is a Saint, but I do believe she is a Saint in the sense that I believe she is in the Kingdom of God, right.
So your interpretation is right -- and may you one day be a very fine Saint.
What do you believe hell is?
"Hell is other people." Sartre -- just kidding.
Hell begins after (or during) the Final Judgment when God appears as radiating light that burns away the impurities of those called to join Him in the Kingdom of God, and which is like a scourge of love unto those who have rejected God, which results in the creation of hell.
It's possible to elaborate further on that, as I have seen some do, but the really important points are that
- Hell is uncreated: it is the result of being in the presence of God's radiating light but having not desired communion with God.
- Hell is eternal, just as heaven is.
- We are the one's responsible for our entrance into hell through the rejection of God and no repentance for our sins.
- From Luke 12:
47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."
So it is the case that people like me baptized into the Orthodox Church carry a large burden, and that is what I must be most concerned with in terms of sin. I have a lot of repenting and self-correction to engage in.
It is also the case that those who are in worse circumstances than me will have a more lenient judgment.
So, it is important to remember that when we think of hell.
I cannot say who goes -- I can only tell you that a baptized Orthodox Christian actively repenting and pursuing the way of God is in position to enter the Kingdom of God, no matter what. That's what I know for sure. The rest, I do not know.
I know right?
Thanks for responding to these thoughts.
I don't know how it can be logically possible to be almighty and not be responsible for what happens.
Maybe we can say that God is responsible, but man is culpable. Like Paul said, God created some vessels for honour and some for dishonour. Maybe our problem is our sense of importance and entitlement.
That is an interesting passage about creation for honor and dishonor... I found this to go with it:
"2 Timothy 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work."
I believe an element of choice definitely persists for everyone.