How Hard Determinism turns God into the devil and Grace into a myth.

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Right to it... Determinism unapologetically makes all of Creation specifically performing God’s will.

The Devil is merely an extension of God’s will, within Determinism, existing and torturing to ultimately bring Glory to God, within Determinism.

Grace is UNMERITED FAVOR. If all is God’s will, then there is no need for Grace, as even the Wicked are performing God’s will, which means they are not in rebellion of God and thusly without the need for grace.

If I hold a gun to Bob’s head and force him to kill someone innocent, Bob still has a choice to be shot or kill the innocent someone.

If I were to mind control Bob to shoot someone innocent, Bob is guiltless and the guilt of the crime rests on my head.

To say... “but if God mind controlled Bob to kill someone innocent, God is guiltless of the crime”, is to make God duplicitous by God’s own standards that He meticulously lays out in all of scripture. This is to say that Determinism accepts the idea that God is Double Minded!

Does God's sovereignty extend to the free actions of men?
 
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nolidad

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Right to it... Determinism unapologetically makes all of Creation specifically performing God’s will.

The Devil is merely an extension of God’s will, within Determinism, existing and torturing to ultimately bring Glory to God, within Determinism.

Grace is UNMERITED FAVOR. If all is God’s will, then there is no need for Grace, as even the Wicked are performing God’s will, which means they are not in rebellion of God and thusly without the need for grace.

If I hold a gun to Bob’s head and force him to kill someone innocent, Bob still has a choice to be shot or kill the innocent someone.

If I were to mind control Bob to shoot someone innocent, Bob is guiltless and the guilt of the crime rests on my head.

To say... “but if God mind controlled Bob to kill someone innocent, God is guiltless of the crime”, is to make God duplicitous by God’s own standards that He meticulously lays out in all of scripture. This is to say that Determinism accepts the idea that God is Double Minded!

Well I am not sure what you mean by determinism, but Gods will is sovereign in the universe, and NOTHING can happen outside of His will.

The angels had free will and 1/3 fell. Adam had free will and surrendered it for him and all mankind by his willful sin. Mankind has no free "will" apart from being in Christ. An unsaved person can never choose Christ unless it was given to Him to choose! Gods Word is clear! In the human nature man can do nothing to please God.

But as god is omniscient and knows the end from the beginning- this is all being played out as He has willed it to! Nothing can take God by surprise.
 
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His student

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Your OP gave indication that there are some theologies that teach that God mind-controls………………………..So I’m asking you for support of that claim. In other words, which theologies teach
I guess, for the sake of extending the discussion, I’ll have to say that I am one of the “theologians” who believe and teach that. The Holy Spirit in the written Word of God, is another.

We have many examples of it in the scriptures.

Obviously God did it in the case of Balaam’s donkey. But, beyond donkeys, we have examples of angels and human beings where He apparently also controlled their mind to say exactly the words He wanted said – not the least of which is the man Jesus of Nazareth.

We have examples of evil men like the “prophecy of God” uttered from his own lips by Caiaphas without him even knowing it.

We have examples also, to which we all apparently agree, of good men doing things, writing exactly what God wants them to say, and saying exactly what God wants them to say without them even knowing what they were doing.

We all believe that God wrote the scriptures for us in that manner. We all believe that God protected and preserved the scriptures for us in that manner.

“For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” 2 Peter 1:21

Actions as well as words can be included with those things controlled by God. Certainly, when Luke covered his manuscripts in a rainstorm or put them over his head as he crossed a river or stream to protect them by his own free will choices as he traveled around writing the Word of God it was God doing the same through his unwitting servant.

Of course none of these examples proved that God is acting in similar ways in all cases.

But we are told that He is omnipresent with all of His attributes in all the entire universe (including the brains and the tongues of all men). He “fills the heavens and the earth”.

After all – we are told that “all things were created by Him, for Him, and in Him all things exist." "In Him we live and move and have our being."

In all of this – no matter how far you chose to take it – we need to acknowledge that the free will of God and the free will of men are both preserved.

Providential control, the predestination of all that happens in God’s creation, and the free will of men are not in conflict one with the other. Rather than be eliminated by them, the free choices made by men establish or bring to pass exactly what God has predestined to occur and is providentially involved in.

There – that ought to get folks away from just exchanging barbs with one another.
 
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Hammster

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I guess, for the sake of extending the discussion, I’ll have to say that I am one of the “theologians” who believe and teach that. The Holy Spirit in the written Word of God, is another.

We have many examples of it in the scriptures.

Obviously God did it in the case of Balaam’s donkey. But, beyond donkeys, we have examples of angels and human beings where He apparently also controlled their mind to say exactly the words He wanted said – not the least of which is the man Jesus of Nazareth.

We have examples of evil men like the “prophecy of God” uttered from his own lips by Caiaphas without him even knowing it.

We have examples also, to which we all apparently agree, of good men doing things, writing exactly what God wants them to say, and saying exactly what God wants them to say without them even knowing what they were doing.

We all believe that God wrote the scriptures for us in that manner. We all believe that God protected and preserved the scriptures for us in that manner.

“For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” 2 Peter 1:21

Actions as well as words can be included with those things controlled by God. Certainly, when Luke covered his manuscripts in a rainstorm or put them over his head as he crossed a river or stream to protect them by his own free will choices as he traveled around writing the Word of God it was God doing the same through his unwitting servant.

Of course none of these examples proved that God is acting in similar ways in all cases.

But we are told that He is omnipresent with all of His attributes in all the entire universe (including the brains and the tongues of all men). He “fills the heavens and the earth”.

After all – we are told that “all things were created by Him, for Him, and in Him all things exist. In Him we live and move and have our being.

In all of this – no matter how far you chose to take it – we need to acknowledge that the free will of God and the free will of men are both preserved.

Providential control, the predestination of all that happens in God’s creation, and the free will of men are not in conflict one with the other. Rather than be eliminated by them, the free choices made by men establish or bring to pass what He has predestined to occur and is providentially involved in.

There – that ought to get folks away from just exchanging barbs with one another.
To me, mind control is just another way of saying we are puppets or robots. I reject that thinking.
 
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To me, mind control is just another way of saying we are puppets or robots. I reject that thinking.
Those words (mind control, puppets, and robots) are not found in the scriptures.

I reject those those kinds words. They are as much straw men when used by a Calvinist as they are when they are used by someone bashing Calvinism.

I didn't write the Word of God. I'm just relaying what it says.

I shouldn't think that you are going to reject or eliminate certain doctrines because they make you uncomfortable.

That's the way of the emotion based Arminians.
 
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Those words are not found in the scriptures.

I reject those those kinds words. They are as much straw men when used by a Calvinist as they are when they are used by someone bashing Calvinism.

I didn't write the Word of God. I'm just relaying what it says.

Surely you aren't going to reject or eliminate certain doctrines because they make you uncomfortable.

That's the way of the emotion based Arminians. :scratch:
The OP used the words mind control. Look at the last paragraph.

To say... “but if God mind controlled Bob to kill someone innocent, God is guiltless of the crime”, is to make God duplicitous by God’s own standards that He meticulously lays out in all of scripture. This is to say that Determinism accepts the idea that God is Double Minded!
 
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His student

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The OP used the words mind control. Look at the last paragraph.

To say... “but if God mind controlled Bob to kill someone innocent, God is guiltless of the crime”, is to make God duplicitous by God’s own standards that He meticulously lays out in all of scripture. This is to say that Determinism accepts the idea that God is Double Minded!
Yes and that's admittedly a rather crude way to describe what the scriptures illustrate for us.

And you used the words puppets and robots to describe mind control.

Let's move beyond using those kinds of words to describe what the scriptures clearly teach about God minute involvement in the choices made by men.

I address you in particular only because you were asking a question that allowed for us moving along through my answer to it.

I'll fully grant you that it is incumbent on the OP to change his charge from "mind control" to something more like "providential control" before we can discuss things intelligently with him.
 
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Hammster

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Yes and that's admittedly a rather crude way to describe what the scriptures illustrate for us.

And you used the words puppets and robots to describe mind control.

Let's move beyond using those kinds of words to describe what the scriptures clearly teach about God minute involvement in the choices made by men.

I address you in particular only because you were asking a question that allowed for us moving along through my answer to it.

I'll fully grant you that it is incumbent on the OP to change his charge from "mind control" to something more like "providential control" before we can discuss things intelligently with him.
I don’t mind discussing what scripture teaches. But that’s not what the OP was about, and I was trying to stay on topic.
 
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royal priest

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God created/creates evil.

ca·lam·i·ty

noun
noun: calamity; plural noun: calamities
an event causing great and often sudden damage or distress; a disaster.

I know modern translations prefer to translate the Hebrew word “ra” as calamity…what do you say?

cropped-oldchurch2.jpg


Word Study Dictionary READS:

ra‛, ָרָעה

rā‛āh: An adjective meaning bad, evil. The basic meaning of this word displays ten or more various shades of the meaning of evil according to its contextual usage. It means bad in a moral and ethical sense and is used to describe, along with good, the entire spectrum of good and evil; hence, it depicts evil in an absolute, negative sense, as when it describes the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen 2:9; Gen 3:5, Gen 3:22). It was necessary for a wise king to be able to discern the evil or the good in the actions of his people (Ecc 12:14); men and women are characterized as evil (1Sa 30:22; Est_7:6; Jer 2:33). The human heart is evil all day long (Gen 6:5) from childhood (Gen 8:21); yet the people of God are to purge evil from among them (Deu 17:7). The Lord is the final arbiter of whether something was good or evil; if something was evil in the eyes of the Lord, there is no further court of appeals (Deu 9:18; 1Ki 14:22). The day of the Lord’s judgment is called an evil day, a day of reckoning and condemnation (Amo 6:3). Jacob would have undergone grave evil (i.e., pain, misery, and ultimate disaster) if he had lost Benjamin (Gen 44:34). The word can refer to circumstances as evil, as when the Israelite foremen were placed in a grave situation (Exo 5:19; 2Ki 14:10).

The word takes on the aspect of something disagreeable, unwholesome, or harmful. Jacob evaluated his life as evil and destructive (Gen_47:9; Num_20:5); and the Israelites considered the wilderness as a threatening, terrifying place. The Canaanite women were evil in the eyes of Isaac (i.e., displeasing [Gen 28:8]). The rabble’s cry within Israel for meat was displeasing in the eyes of Moses (Num 11:10). This word describes the vicious animal that killed Joseph, so Jacob thought (Gen 37:33). The despondent countenances of persons can be described by this word; the baker’s and the butler’s faces were downcast because of their dreams (Gen 40:7). It can also describe one who is heavy in heart (Pro 25:20).

In a literal sense, the word depicts something that is of poor quality or even ugly in appearance. The weak, lean cows of Pharaoh’s dream were decrepit, ugly-looking (Gen 41:3, Gen 41:20, Gen 41:27); poisonous drinking water was described as bad (2Ki 2:19; 2Ki_4:41). From these observations, it is clear that the word can be used to attribute a negative aspect to nearly anything.

Used as a noun, the word indicates realities that are inherently evil, wicked, or bad; the psalmist feared no evil (Psa 23:4). The noun also depicts people of wickedness, that is, wicked people. Aaron characterized the people of Israel as inherently wicked in order to clear himself (Exo 32:22). Calamities, failures, and miseries are all connotations of this word when it is used as a noun. (end quote)

Scriptural Quotations to Consider:

Isaiah 45:7

KJV- I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

ESV- I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Lamentations 3:37-38

KJV- Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

ESV- Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?

A Quotation from Gordon H. Clark:

The Scofield Bible is a good example of how Arminians try to escape from the plain meaning of the verse. Scofield says, “ra, translated ‘sorrow,’ ‘wretchedness,’ ‘adversity,’ ‘afflictions,’ ‘calamities,’ but never translated SIN. God created evil only in the sense that he made sorrow, wretchedness, etc., to be the sure fruits of sin.”

scofield.png


Now the most remarkable point about Scofield’s note is that he told the truth when he said, “RA . . . [is] never translated sin.” How could he have made such a statement, knowing it was true? The only answer is that he must have examined every instance of RA in the Hebrew text and then he must have determined that in no case did the King James translate it sin. And this is absolutely true. But if he compared every instance of RA with its translation in every case, he could not have failed to note that RA in Genesis 6:5 and in a number of other places is translated WICKEDNESS. In fact RA is translated wickedness some fifty times. Scofield could not have failed to notice this; so he says with just truth, RA is never translated sin. Since Scofield favors the word EVIL, a partial list of verses in which this translation occurs will be given; and second there will be a partial list where WICKED or WICKEDNESS is used.

Going through the Bible, Scofield must have read as far as Genesis 2:9, 17; 3:5, 22; 6:5; 8:21; 44:4; 48:16; 50:15, 17, 20. “The knowledge of good and EVIL” is simply a knowledge of sorrow or calamity; it is primarily a knowledge of disobedience and sin. Similarly, Genesis 3:5, 22 refers as much to sin as to its punishment. In fact Genesis 3:22 hardly refers to punishment at all. True, Adam was banished from the garden; but the word EVIL in the verse refers to his disobedience and sin.

Whatever lame excuse can be given for excluding sin and retaining only punishment in the previous four verses, Genesis 6:5 is clearly and indisputably a reference to sin. God did not see “adversity” or “afflictions”; he saw sinful thoughts. RA, in this verse at any rate, means sin. The same is true of Genesis 8:21. In fact sin and its punishment are separated here. God will not again curse or smite, as he had just done, for man’s heart is evil. The flood was a punishment, but the evil was the sinful heart of man.

Toward the end of Genesis RA refers to an alleged theft, many sins from which the Angel had redeemed Jacob, and three times the brothers’ sin against Joseph. In 50:17 again the sin is easily distinguishable from the feared punishment.

Is it necessary to plod through all the Old Testament to show that RA often means sin as distinct from its punishment? It should not be necessary; but to show the pervasiveness of the doctrine and the perverseness of Arminianism, something from II Chronicles will be listed: 22:4; 29:6; 36:5, 9, 12. Ahab did EVIL in the sight of the Lord. Our fathers have trespassed and done evil in the eyes of the Lord. Manasseh did evil in the sight of the Lord. He wrought much evil in the sight of the Lord. Jehoiakim did evil in the sight of the Lord. . . .

ra-strongs.png


Evil, RA, is not once TRANSLATED sin. Very strange, but true.

Then there is Isaiah 56:2; 57:1; 59:7, 15; 65:12; 66:4. All instances of RA, or EVIL.

Now, if Scofield knew that RA was never translated SIN, he must have known that it was often translated WICKEDNESS. WICKEDNESS or WICKED, as the translation of RA occurs in Genesis 6:5; 13:13; 38:7; 39:9. Also in Deuteronomy 13:11 and 17:2. Also in I Samuel 30:22 and II Samuel 3:39. I Kings 2:44; Nehemiah 9:35; Esther 7:6, 9, 25. And Proverbs 21:12; 26:23, 26. Nor are these the only instances.

Scofield told the literal truth when he said it is never translated SIN. But nothing could be more false than his statement, “ God created evil ONLY in the sense that he made sorrow, wretchedness, etc., to be the sure fruits of sin.”

The scriptural meaning of the word RA, has now been abundantly made clear. But there is another point too. If RA means simply external calamities, then the word PEACE, which God also creates, can mean only military peace. The phrases are parallel. But this interpretation reduces the verse, or THIS PART OF THE VERSE, to triviality. Even verse one can hardly be restricted to purely political matters. Verse three speaks of treasures of darkness, hidden riches, and the knowledge of God. Jacob my servant and Israel my elect are not phrases to be restricted to politics and economics. Verse 6 speaks of the extension of the knowledge of God throughout the world. Then comes “I make peace and create evil.” Merely military peace? Not peace with God? The next verse speaks of righteousness dropping down from heaven, not like dew, but like pouring rain. Bring forth salvation, let righteousness spring up together. I the Lord have created it.

O, Arminian, Arminian, thou that distortest the prophets and misinterpretest them that are sent unto thee; how often have I told your children the plain truth . . . and ye would not let them understand!

There is still more in this chapter from Isaiah. Once again we find the potter and the clay. It indicates that God is not responsible to man. Woe to the man who complains that God has made him or anyone else a vessel of dishonor. The clay has no ‘rights’ against the potter. Nor does it have any free will to decide what sort of a bowl or jug it shall be.

Gordon H. Clark, Predestination, Presbyterian & Reformed, 1987, pp. 185-188
Good stuff!
There is also Isaiah 10:
Woe to Assyria, the rod of my anger;
the staff in their hands is my fury!
Against a godless nation I send him,
and against the people of my wrath I command him...
...When the Lord has finished all his work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, he will punish the speech of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the boastful look in his eyes. For he says:
“By the strength of my hand I have done it"...
...Shall the axe boast over him who hews with it, or the saw magnify itself against him who wields it?
 
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His student

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f all is God’s will, then there is no need for Grace, as even the Wicked are performing God’s will, which means they are not in rebellion of God and thusly without the need for grace.
It depends what you mean by God's will.

Obviously the scriptures teach that there are at least a couple of nuances to consider when speaking of God's will. To not do that is to play a game here that can come to no good end.

Given Who and what God is and who and what we are - everything is in some sense God's will. There is no getting around the fact that the scriptures teach exactly that.

But you seem to be saying that because of what they teach - God is double minded and or in need of punishment for sin in order that justice be fulfilled. Therefore the idea of His total sovereignty must be incorrect.

The scriptures do teach that God is in control even of sin and they also teach that He is all together righteous.

You aren't denying either of those things are you?

If you deny either one - there is no need for further discussion because you obviously don't believe the scriptures.

If you are merely wishing to sharpen the theology of everyone here by iron sharpening iron - that's a different thing.

But by railing against what you have been calling "determinism" you aren't really meaning to deny the truth of God's sovereignty in all things are you?
 
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Right to it... Determinism unapologetically makes all of Creation specifically performing God’s will.

The Devil is merely an extension of God’s will, within Determinism, existing and torturing to ultimately bring Glory to God, within Determinism.

Grace is UNMERITED FAVOR. If all is God’s will, then there is no need for Grace, as even the Wicked are performing God’s will, which means they are not in rebellion of God and thusly without the need for grace.

If I hold a gun to Bob’s head and force him to kill someone innocent, Bob still has a choice to be shot or kill the innocent someone.

If I were to mind control Bob to shoot someone innocent, Bob is guiltless and the guilt of the crime rests on my head.

To say... “but if God mind controlled Bob to kill someone innocent, God is guiltless of the crime”, is to make God duplicitous by God’s own standards that He meticulously lays out in all of scripture. This is to say that Determinism accepts the idea that God is Double Minded!

Romans 9.
 
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Blade

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Pfft.. another thing I had to look into.. man its like back to SCHOOL! :D

I can find "people" that believe this but.. no real "groups". Just not sure what your getting at. We like to THINK were free. A truth yet not. We are free in this time bubble and then only to some degree. God has made all the rules. So were free within this space. "Determinism". Since God knows the end from the beginning.. I can see how one might believe.. its all "Determinism" good English! DONT ask me I don't know lol
 
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Does God's sovereignty extend to the free actions of men?

Perhaps I would say... God has chosen to impart sincere LBF unto mankind and has responded to it out of Love. In that light His actions of humbly Loving us display His absolute Sovereignty.
 
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Aabbie James

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Right to it... Determinism unapologetically makes all of Creation specifically performing God’s will.

The Devil is merely an extension of God’s will, within Determinism, existing and torturing to ultimately bring Glory to God, within Determinism.

Grace is UNMERITED FAVOR. If all is God’s will, then there is no need for Grace, as even the Wicked are performing God’s will, which means they are not in rebellion of God and thusly without the need for grace.

If I hold a gun to Bob’s head and force him to kill someone innocent, Bob still has a choice to be shot or kill the innocent someone.

If I were to mind control Bob to shoot someone innocent, Bob is guiltless and the guilt of the crime rests on my head.

To say... “but if God mind controlled Bob to kill someone innocent, God is guiltless of the crime”, is to make God duplicitous by God’s own standards that He meticulously lays out in all of scripture. This is to say that Determinism accepts the idea that God is Double Minded!
Is this an analogy by which God's creature usurps the role of the Creator?

The Bible says:
God is Sovereign (Isaiah 46:10)
God's Will is Sovereign (Ephesians 1:11)
God Directs All Things for His Glory (Romans 11:36)
 
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Grip Docility

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Was it not in Gods plan that Judas point the finger at Jesus thus condemning him to the cross and our salvation? Is not God in control of everything?

Did God make Judas do what Judas did or use what Judas and Satan intended for bad to bring about good?
 
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Grip Docility

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Is this an analogy by which God's creature usurps the role of the Creator?

The Bible says:
God is Sovereign (Isaiah 46:10)
God's Will is Sovereign (Ephesians 1:11)
God Directs All Things for His Glory (Romans 11:36)

Does not Romans 1 distinguish that those who “Exalt the Creation over the Creator” are wicked in and of themselves, without His intervention?

Yet, did not God even pursue the heart of Israel as it exalted the Creation over the Creator.
 
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It depends what you mean by God's will.

Obviously the scriptures teach that there are at least a couple of nuances to consider when speaking of God's will. To not do that is to play a game here that can come to no good end.

Given Who and what God is and who and what we are - everything is in some sense God's will. There is no getting around the fact that the scriptures teach exactly that.

But you seem to be saying that because of what they teach - God is double minded and or in need of punishment for sin in order that justice be fulfilled. Therefore the idea of His total sovereignty must be incorrect.

The scriptures do teach that God is in control even of sin and they also teach that He is all together righteous.

You aren't denying either of those things are you?

If you deny either one - there is no need for further discussion because you obviously don't believe the scriptures.

If you are merely wishing to sharpen the theology of everyone here by iron sharpening iron - that's a different thing.

But by railing against what you have been calling "determinism" you aren't really meaning to deny the truth of God's sovereignty in all things are you?

Definitely sharpening both perspectives.
 
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