Can you lose your salvation

createdtoworship

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Yet not a single verse that states what I specifically asked for.

Again:

again are you suggesting that the gospel seed is planted and grows into a seedling, yet is not saved? That is very peculiar.
 
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Dr. Jack

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you must use expositional constancy, that means using the emediate text involved. If it mentions turning away, then later it mentions falling.

then there is a progression, it starts by turning away and ends in falling.

so you need to take all of the passage into consideration.

just step away from the greek books, and commentaries, and preconceptions and just read the passage, like you would if you were a child.

how does it sound?

what does the actual words say?

it says you can drift, doubt, turn away, and fall, those are all individual subjects within the book of hebrews, I have in my Bible them highlighted as a progression.

I may have a few mixed up because my Bible is not with me.

but you see the point.
But nowhere does it say I no longer have my eternal life.
 
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createdtoworship

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But nowhere does it say I no longer have my eternal life.
again in all of those verses where it talks about planting the seed of the gospel, are you suggesting, all those living plants are dead?
 
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Dr. Jack

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again in all of those verses where it talks about planting the seed of the gospel, are you suggesting, all those living plants are dead?
Were we talking about Hebrews 6? Or are we trying to put apostasy in the parable of the sower?
 
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createdtoworship

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Were we talking about Hebrews 6? Or are we trying to put apostasy in the parable of the sower?

sir please answer the question, in the case of the parable of the sewer, are the plants living christians or dead ones, not christian?
 
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Dr. Jack

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sir please answer the question, in the case of the parable of the sewer, are the plants living christians or dead ones, not christian?
The parable isn't about the "plants", it's a out the "soil".
 
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Dr. Jack

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Again, are plants living or dead?
Your question presupposes that the plants are all equal ... hence, you are missing the point of the parable. The point of the parable is that the seeds only grow to maturity in the proper soil.

You must change the focus of the entire parable to be about the plant, rather than being about the soil.

Unless the seed falls in the right soul, the plant will never reach maturity (True salvation).
 
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createdtoworship

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Your question presupposes that the plants are all equal ... hence, you are missing the point of the parable. The point of the parable is that the seeds only grow to maturity in the proper soil.

You must change the focus of the entire parable to be about the plant, rather than being about the soil.

Unless the seed falls in the right soul, the plant will never reach maturity (True salvation).

it should be an easy question, are plants alive or dead? It's only one of two choices. If they are dead they why are they growing? If that are alive, then why did they die in the parable of the sower. I think you don't want to answer this question because it proves I do have several verses that indicate that something that is alive, is dying because it leaves the faith.
 
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Dr. Jack

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it should be an easy question, are plants alive or dead? It's only one of two choices. If they are dead they why are they growing? If that are alive, then why did they die in the parable of the sower. I think you don't want to answer this question because it proves I do have several verses that indicate that something that is alive, is dying because it leaves the faith.
The problem is, the purpose of the parables isn't to prove salvation can be lost. If that were the case, Jesus would have simply stated that to His disciples.

The purpose of the parable was to point out the type of soil it takes to both, be saved, and bear fruit. None of the first three soils allowed the plant to firmly grow. By having no root, or by being choked out by their environment, the first three soils didn't allow the plant to reach maturity.

Thus it is with the hearts of men and the gospel. Until the gospel lands on a heart that has been made ready by the Spirit of God, no matter how much it LOOKS like people are genuinely saved, they are not.
 
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createdtoworship

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The problem is, the purpose of the parables isn't to prove salvation can be lost. If that were the case, Jesus would have simply stated that to His disciples.

The purpose of the parable was to point out the type of soil it takes to both, be saved, and bear fruit. None of the first three soils allowed the plant to firmly grow. By having no root, or by being choked out by their environment, the first three soils didn't allow the plant to reach maturity.

Thus it is with the hearts of men and the gospel. Until the gospel lands on a heart that has been made ready by the Spirit of God, no matter how much it LOOKS like people are genuinely saved, they are not.
So if the parable is about the soil, I won't argue again't that for now. Say you are right. Even then they can't bear fruit of the are spiritually dead so you admit all of the plants were alive and apparently can die. So thanks for proving my point. So yes there are verses that speak of losing salvatiin. But see post one, sinning cannot remove salvation only if by your free will you decide not to be saved anymore can you plant die. Mainly because of external situations descriptioned in the parable. Tribulation without a church body can cause a new convert nit to grow and to wither during a trial. Makes perfect sense. You can't expect a new christian to be saved perpetually with no input, no encouragement, no disciplship. Without water and nutrients a plant dies.
 
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Dr. Jack

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So if the parable is about the soil, I won't argue again't that for now. Say you are right. Even then they can't bear fruit of the are spiritually dead so you admit all of the plants were alive and apparently can die. So thanks for proving my point. So yes there are verses that speak of losing salvatiin. But see post one, sinning cannot remove salvation only if by your free will you decide not to be saved anymore can you plant die. Mainly because of external situations descriptioned in the parable. Tribulation without a church body can cause a new convert nit to grow and to wither during a trial. Makes perfect sense. You can't expect a new christian to be saved perpetually with no input, no encouragement, no disciplship. Without water and nutrients a plant dies.
You have a really great habit of presenting ideas, but no Scripture that actually states what you say.

In the thread concerning Bible versions you talk about how bad Dynamic Equivalence is, but that is all you do, allegorize every Scripture you consider.
 
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createdtoworship

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You have a really great habit of presenting ideas, but no Scripture that actually states what you say.

In the thread concerning Bible versions you talk about how bad Dynamic Equivalence is, but that is all you do, allegorize every Scripture you consider.
because it is logic that I am attesting to. Say I ask you to quote me word for word, and you use dynamic equivalence instead. That is rewriting what I actually said, That would be offensive to me. But for some reason God is not offended by it? And as far as allegorizing, I have proven how the majority of occasions in the bible you don't agree with, however you allegorize where you have to. Then I pointed out how a plant is alive, it has to be, yet you allegorize that to not mean alive in reality, and somehow it is only referring to the dirt, not the whole passage. Seriously, you should reflect upon your views more. See when I was in free grace, I had to reinterpret literally a hundred verses where it talked about repenting for salvation. It was so much mental gymnastics, that I vowed to never do it again. It literally caused me, or aided me in a mental breakdown, which took years to recover from. See your working way to hard trying to come up with alternatives to what the Bible actually says. That is too much work! You have to literally figure out dozens or more verses and how they can't contradict your view. It's much better to just believe what is said, and change the perspective to what is said. So far there is no verse you post that I don't agree with, but I have posted verses that you disagree with. That should concern you, if you have to change what was said, to match your viewpoint, your doing it wrong.
 
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Dr. Jack

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because it is logic that I am attesting to. Say I ask you to quote me word for word, and you use dynamic equivalence instead. That is rewriting what I actually said, That would be offensive to me. But for some reason God is not offended by it? And as far as allegorizing, I have proven how the majority of occasions in the bible you don't agree with, however you allegorize where you have to. Then I pointed out how a plant is alive, it has to be, yet you allegorize that to not mean alive in reality, and somehow it is only referring to the dirt, not the whole passage. Seriously, you should reflect upon your views more. See when I was in free grace, I had to reinterpret literally a hundred verses where it talked about repenting for salvation. It was so much mental gymnastics, that I vowed to never do it again. It literally caused me, or aided me in a mental breakdown, which took years to recover from. See your working way to hard trying to come up with alternatives to what the Bible actually says. That is too much work! You have to literally figure out dozens or more verses and how they can't contradict your view. It's much better to just believe what is said, and change the perspective to what is said. So far there is no verse you post that I don't agree with, but I have posted verses that you disagree with. That should concern you, if you have to change what was said, to match your viewpoint, your doing it wrong.
Seriously, you should reflect upon your views more. See when I was in free grace, I had to reinterpret literally a hundred verses where it talked about repenting for salvation. It was so much mental gymnastics, that I vowed to never do it again. It literally caused me, or aided me in a mental breakdown, which took years to recover from.
Jesus said,
13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Luke
Are you saying that Jesus should also reflect more on His views?
 
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createdtoworship

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Jesus said,
13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Luke
Are you saying that Jesus should also reflect more on His views?
I agree with salvic repentance, but there was one time where I didn't. so I understand your frustration having to reinterpret scripture to match a dogma that is not in the bible. Calvinism is not in scripture.
 
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Dr. Jack

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I agree with salvic repentance, but there was one time where I didn't. so I understand your frustration having to reinterpret scripture to match a dogma that is not in the bible. Calvinism is not in scripture.
Are you insinuating that I am a Calvinist?
 
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createdtoworship

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Are you insinuating that I am a Calvinist?
sir, OSAS was an invention of calvin I think in what the sixteenth century. It did help somewhat as far as seeing what eternal security was, but church fathers did not believe in security of the believer at all as far as OSAS. What I am getting at was it was not a common doctrine till about four hundred years ago, it was a late doctrine.
 
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Dr. Jack

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sir, OSAS was an invention of calvin I think in what the sixteenth century. It did help somewhat as far as seeing what eternal security was, but church fathers did not believe in security of the believer at all as far as OSAS. What I am getting at was it was not a common doctrine till about four hundred years ago, it was a late doctrine.
1) You need to understand that I am NOT a Calvinist.
2) However, I believe in using historical documents to show that particular beliefs existed long before many assert their origins.

The case in reference here is, the eternal security of the believer - OSAS - as being in existence long before the days of Calvin.

Here is an article presented by a Calvinist that shows the existence of the OSAS doctrine PRIOR to Calvin.

Why Do We And St. Augustine Believe “Once Saved Always Saved”?

So much for you last post ... Refuted.
 
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Torben Roth

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I wouldn't say that I'm proud of my sin by any margin. I'm just not broken over it. It feels neutral when committed. My immediate response is to confess and turn away but my repentance feels hollow.

Hello bathelter0,
How are you doing? I read your posts a few days ago and i can identify myself with you. I am in a similar situation. I also dont know what to do. I'd like to talk to you abou how it is going with you
 
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