Pray for me

[TheLostCoin]

I feel like I’m kind of in a stage of confusion, primarily due to my endless grave sins which I feel like I cannot overcome, plus I feel lost even in what I should believe in.

There’s a part of me - perhaps out of selfishness - that wants to remain Catholic due to the fact that I have access to both the Traditional Roman Rite and the Byzantine Rites, and to rationalize the whole mess of Rome. I love the monarchical structure and the history of the Papacy, and I love the spiritualities of such Saints like Saint Bernard, Saint Dominic, Saint Alphonsus Liguori, Saint John Bosco, Saint Pio -

However, at the end of the day, when it comes to the rationalizations I employ, I ultimately realize that I’m using the Orthodox Church as the standard lens of what is correct and what isn’t, contorting and twisting the ambiguities of the Roman Catholic Church into a model that isn’t actually what it is. What it is is a Church which teaches religious indifferentism and teaches animosity to the Ornaments and Tradition of Roman Catholicism, with such things like the USCCB saying that the Old Covenant is still valid, and Pope Francis saying proselytism and Uniatism is evil.
I ultimately feel like if Rome is not the source of Orthodoxy, what’s the point in professing Rome as a source of Orthodoxy?

What has been really hard to accept is pretty much the logical impossibility of figuring out where the Church is and what the Church believes in.

But I mean, I feel like not only have I sinned greatly, in terms of the Early Papacy, I’m still kind of lost with what appears to be the very clear Papal claims from at least the 5th century onwards - probably even earlier with Saint Julius’s claims of being an appellate source of Orthodoxy to the Arians.

Not that being Roman will solve the problem visa vi the 5th Ecumenical Council which excommunicates the Pope, or the Council of Constance which states that the Popes are subject to Ecumenical Councils, not to mention the fact that the Patristic Church Fathers refute the keys casuistry of Matthew 16:18 - especially Saint Augustine.

What even about the Council of Chalcedon and the non-Chalcedonians? I don’t see anything wrong with Chalcedon as far as I can tell other than reuniting the persons of certain people who allegedly wrote heterodox things, but maybe Pope Leo was a Nestorian who tried to show Christ was two persons.

I feel like finding the True Church logically is just impossible to figure out with some level of certainty, especially with my passions ruining my soul.

So I just need prayers that whatever happens, God can bring me to Salvation and put me in the right Church. I need prayers to be a better person than I am. I need prayers to find peace.

 

[Anhelyna]

Lord have mercy !

 

[Phronema]

Lord have mercy!

 

[ArmyMatt]

Lord have mercy!

 

[RobNJ]

Lord, have mercy

 

[Not David]

Lord have mercy!

I believe you focus too much on certain ideas you have about some topics that you could understand better. I still have questions about some stuff like Original Sin, the role of the Theotokos, and the correct use of Economia. That is a problem of some people who join "True Orthodoxy" churches because they misinterpret canons regarding the Calendar and Ecumenism, or think that because they know better they should separate from "Apostates".

How is your spiritual life going? Remember that knowledge is not the only thing that saves a person but love and obedience. Like St Maximus said:
"Theology without action is the theology of demons" is the theology of demons".

Send me a private message if you want to talk.

 

[dzheremi]

Lord have mercy.

 

[Lukaris]

Do your best to live a daily Christian life.

 

[“Paisios”]

Lord have mercy.

 

[The Nikonian]

Gospodi Pomilui!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Lord have mercy!!!



If I am understanding you correctly (and in some cases reading between the lines over the years) ... this is what I feel badly for in many Catholics that inquire into Orthodoxy. In considering breaking communion with Rome, a degree of reaching comfort with choosing between different theologies is necessary.

I am also reminded of the shift I went through after baptism. My focus until I was comfortable had been on theology. After baptism I found my focus shifted immediately to what I found revealed in my own spiritual state.

Prayers for you. I know I still need them myself.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

OP—-you say you have a love of the monarchical papacy and it’s history. Problem with that is, the idea of a monarchical papacy is not truly Christian. The mythos, awe, grandeur, and mind-bending infallible power of the papacy was always cooked up and propagated by.....drum roll.....the papacy.

How has the papacy worked out for Catholicism? Liberation theology, pedophile scandals of seismic proportions, guys like Pope Francis (nuff said), awful liturgy with little piety, bizarre innovations like purgatory and indulgences, heretics like Pope Honorius, a Reformation came about as a reaction to papal corruption, antipopes, popes having illegitimate kids, Borgias, “Donation of Constantine,” liturgical abuse, liturgical dance (heaven help us all!), songs like “Gather Us In,” I mean, come on!!

GATHER.....US......IN. Right there any lover of sacred music should feel the need for exorcism! Lord of the Dance!?! Center of My Life!?! Here I Am, Lord!?! On Eagle’s Wings!?

What has the papacy done for Catholicism? Their doctrine is poor, awful LGBT filth has engulfed and possessed their seminaries (I’ve had priests within it tell me first hand), feminism is out of control in Catholicism, sick pedophile scum protected or moved and hidden, excessive ecumenical nonsense, popes kissing Korans, popes getting Hindu bindis on foreheads, poking their noses into sovereignty issues in nations, Meh....

Popes....uh....what are they good for...absolutely nothing...

Like the War song.

 

[TheLostCoin]

OP—-you say you have a love of the monarchical papacy and it’s history. Problem with that is, the idea of a monarchical papacy is not truly Christian. The mythos, awe, grandeur, and mind-bending infallible power of the papacy was always cooked up and propagated by.....drum roll.....the papacy.

How has the papacy worked out for Catholicism? Liberation theology, pedophile scandals of seismic proportions, guys like Pope Francis (nuff said), awful liturgy with little piety, bizarre innovations like purgatory and indulgences, heretics like Pope Honorius, a Reformation came about as a reaction to papal corruption, antipopes, popes having illegitimate kids, Borgias, “Donation of Constantine,” liturgical abuse, liturgical dance (heaven help us all!), songs like “Gather Us In,” I mean, come on!!

GATHER.....US......IN. Right there any lover of sacred music should feel the need for exorcism! Lord of the Dance!?! Center of My Life!?! Here I Am, Lord!?! On Eagle’s Wings!?

What has the papacy done for Catholicism? Their doctrine is poor, awful LGBT filth has engulfed and possessed their seminaries (I’ve had priests within it tell me first hand), feminism is out of control in Catholicism, sick pedophile scum protected or moved and hidden, excessive ecumenical nonsense, popes kissing Korans, popes getting Hindu bindis on foreheads, poking their noses into sovereignty issues in nations, Meh....

Popes....uh....what are they good for...absolutely nothing...

Like the War song.

Ironically enough, I think this is one of the few things bothering me - the Catholic Church, out of all the Churches so far that have had the waves of apostates try to destroy it from within, the Catholic Church has had the most interesting interaction. Either those apostates get successful and destroy the Church (see ELCA or Episcopal Church), or they struggle and see little success (Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy). In the Roman Catholic Church, we see a growing traditional movement that’s doing everything it can to stop the crisis, which is causing some level of a slowdown to the absolute destruction and blasphemy of Rome from the 60s to today.

Look at the past. We got to situations where almost all of the Eastern Churches fell into Arianism or non-Chalcedonianism; we got situations where friends and relatives of the Emperor were placed in Bishops robes (see Saint Photius), where Patriarchs had the legal authority to break into people’s homes and stab their icons (see Old Believer Schisms), one where pedophilia was a massive problem (see Saint Basil’s canons from the Philolokia) and that’s not to mention the horrible, horrible heresies during the time of the Early Church near the Apostles. I’ve been reading this book by Alphonsus of Liguori on the history of the heresies, and it’s absolutely nuts some of the sects that the Early, near-Apostolic Church (allegedly) had to deal with - there’s one sect that believed that the Serpent in the Garden and Jesus were the same, so they would worship a Snake and get Bread blessed by the Snake as a Eucharist; one sect would kidnap children, stab them several times, and make Bread and Wine with the Blood of the children as a Eucharist, and canonize those who would die as martyrs; one would come to Church naked and those Church sessions would turn sexual; and some early Gnostic sects were so demonic; like one that was convinced that because the God of the Old Testament was Satan, all moral commandments from God should be ignored and the opposite should be done; etc.

Especially after the damage to ideology the Enlightenment and Communism has done to theology, why don’t we see these problems Roman Catholicism and Protestantism is suffering from today, affect Orthodoxy or Oriental Orthodoxy anywhere near to the same level, when in the past the Church, did, in fact, deal with such problems?

Unless we just don’t know about it - my Orthodox Priest had a saying, that Satan has three sections of demons; the first section he sends to the Prostitutes; the second section he sends to the Thieves; the third section he sends to the Seminaries. Well, why are all the demons flocking to Roman Catholic seminaries and not Orthodox ones?

I can’t see however, how the Catholic Church could approve of the Charismatic Movement, or how Pope Paul VI could be not only in Heaven, but a role model for the Church to follow (this is the same guy who said that the 1962 Mass should not be allowed, because it would undermine his Apostolic Authority, said the United Nations was the second best Institution ever created, behind the Church, and said that Gregorian Chant should be abandoned), or how someone who kissed the Quran twice and asked Saint John the Baptist to protect Islam could also be a role model for Christians to follow, without ever answering the detractors that accused him of religious relativism, and how Rome has not objectively defected based on its claims.

 

[Platina]

Lord have mercy!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Orthodoxy doesn’t pretend individual infallibility for anybody. Conciliar Christianity is messy. The Church was always messy! Peter and Paul butted heads, dirt bags like Arius, Nestorius, and company have popped up right and left, emperors whispered heresies to bishops who bought the merchandise, bad priests, errors, iconoclasm...

But collectively Christ’s shepherds are infallible in the long game. The gates of hell don’t win.

Ironically enough, I think this is one of the few things bothering me - the Catholic Church, out of all the Churches so far that have had the waves of apostates try to destroy it from within, the Catholic Church has had the most interesting interaction. Either those apostates get successful and destroy the Church (see ELCA or Episcopal Church), or they struggle and see little success (Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy). In the Roman Catholic Church, we see a growing traditional movement that’s doing everything it can to stop the crisis, which is causing some level of a slowdown to the absolute destruction and blasphemy of Rome from the 60s to today.

Look at the past. We got to situations where almost all of the Eastern Churches fell into Arianism or non-Chalcedonianism; we got situations where friends and relatives of the Emperor were placed in Bishops robes (see Saint Photius), where Patriarchs had the legal authority to break into people’s homes and stab their icons (see Old Believer Schisms), one where pedophilia was a massive problem (see Saint Basil’s canons from the Philolokia) and that’s not to mention the horrible, horrible heresies during the time of the Early Church near the Apostles. I’ve been reading this book by Alphonsus of Liguori on the history of the heresies, and it’s absolutely nuts some of the sects that the Early, near-Apostolic Church (allegedly) had to deal with - there’s one sect that believed that the Serpent in the Garden and Jesus were the same, so they would worship a Snake and get Bread blessed by the Snake as a Eucharist; one sect would kidnap children, stab them several times, and make Bread and Wine with the Blood of the children as a Eucharist, and canonize those who would die as martyrs; one would come to Church naked and those Church sessions would turn sexual; and some early Gnostic sects were so demonic; like one that was convinced that because the God of the Old Testament was Satan, all moral commandments from God should be ignored and the opposite should be done; etc.

Especially after the damage to ideology the Enlightenment and Communism has done to theology, why don’t we see these problems Roman Catholicism and Protestantism is suffering from today, affect Orthodoxy or Oriental Orthodoxy anywhere near to the same level, when in the past the Church, did, in fact, deal with such problems?

Unless we just don’t know about it - my Orthodox Priest had a saying, that Satan has three sections of demons; the first section he sends to the Prostitutes; the second section he sends to the Thieves; the third section he sends to the Seminaries. Well, why are all the demons flocking to Roman Catholic seminaries and not Orthodox ones?

I can’t see however, how the Catholic Church could approve of the Charismatic Movement, or how Pope Paul VI could be not only in Heaven, but a role model for the Church to follow (this is the same guy who said that the 1962 Mass should not be allowed, because it would undermine his Apostolic Authority, said the United Nations was the second best Institution ever created, behind the Church, and said that Gregorian Chant should be abandoned), or how someone who kissed the Quran twice and asked Saint John the Baptist to protect Islam could also be a role model for Christians to follow, without ever answering the detractors that accused him of religious relativism, and how Rome has not objectively defected based on its claims.

 

[SingularityOne]

Lord have mercy.

Conciliatory of the Church and the Essence-Energies distinction are only found within Orthodoxy; the distortions of the revealed doctrine of essence-energy being where all distortions of doctrine ultimately derive from... aka; when Absolute Divine Simplicity and Classical Foundationalism became the starting point for the West instead of the Apophatic Theology (Presuppositional Argumentation) and Essence-Energy distinction in the East.

The papacy and Absolute Divine Simplicity are distortions/additions to the Faith that was once and for all handed down, by Christ, to the Apostles, to the Holy Fathers...

Christology and Ecclesiology cannot be separated.

 

[TheLostCoin]

Orthodoxy doesn’t pretend individual infallibility for anybody. Conciliar Christianity is messy. The Church was always messy! Peter and Paul butted heads, dirt bags like Arius, Nestorius, and company have popped up right and left, emperors whispered heresies to bishops who bought the merchandise, bad priests, errors, iconoclasm...

But collectively Christ’s shepherds are infallible in the long game. The gates of hell don’t win.

But why isn't the Church being so attacked to the extent Rome has been?

 

[TheLostCoin]

Lord have mercy.

Conciliatory of the Church and the Essence-Energies distinction are only found within Orthodoxy; the distortions of the revealed doctrine of essence-energy being where all distortions of doctrine ultimately derive from... aka; when Absolute Divine Simplicity and Classical Foundationalism became the starting point for the West instead of the Apophatic Theology (Presuppositional Argumentation) and Essence-Energy distinction in the East.

The papacy and Absolute Divine Simplicity are distortions/additions to the Faith that was once and for all handed down, by Christ, to the Apostles, to the Holy Fathers...

Christology and Ecclesiology cannot be separated.

But I feel like knowing which one is actually correct is kind of impossible. I mean, the idea of Absolute Divine Simplicity are really just developments from Saint Augustine, whereas the Essence-Energies distinction are just developments of the Cappadocian Fathers. So who is right? A few Saints who lived really close together in one area around the same time, or one Saint who lived on a completely different continent?

I mean, the only reason why the Cappadocian Fathers are so influential in Orthodoxy is because they spoke the language that Greek people spoke, and the only reason why Saint Augustine was so influential was that he spoke the language the Roman people spoke. If they all spoke Greek or Latin, maybe we wouldn't have such a chasm in our understanding of God and even the Old Testament; if images of the Ancient of Days or God's Throne in Ezekiel are literally God Himself in His own nature, or if they are creations of God that allow God to be communicable to people.

So who knows.

 

[SingularityOne]

But I feel like knowing which one is actually correct is kind of impossible. I mean, the idea of Absolute Divine Simplicity are really just developments from Saint Augustine, whereas the Essence-Energies distinction are just developments of the Cappadocian Fathers. So who is right? A few Saints who lived really close together in one area around the same time, or one Saint who lived on a completely different continent?

I mean, the only reason why the Cappadocian Fathers are so influential in Orthodoxy is because they spoke the language that Greek people spoke, and the only reason why Saint Augustine was so influential was that he spoke the language the Roman people spoke. If they all spoke Greek or Latin, maybe we wouldn't have such a chasm in our understanding of God and even the Old Testament; if images of the Ancient of Days or God's Throne in Ezekiel are literally God Himself in His own nature, or if they are creations of God that allow God to be communicable to people.

So who knows.

Absolute Divine Simplicity is a doctrine influenced by the pagan philosophy of Plato using Classical Foundationalism. The Essence-Energies distinction is a revealed doctrine from God that has always been true since “In the beginning...” and will be true until “amen”.

The conciliar Church knows; aka, Eastern Orthodoxy.

 

[ArmyMatt]

But why isn't the Church being so attacked to the extent Rome has been?

how are we not attacked?