How can satan be already bound without contradicting Revelation 12?

[DavidPT]

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

When do non Premils typically conclude this part is fulfilled?----and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

One thing is for certain, it is obviously meaning a time post verse 21.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Verse 22 begins with 'Until'. This should tell anyone that it is the coming seen in verse 22 that puts a stop once and for all to the war against the saints via the little horn. And when this coming occurs, this is when the time has come that the saints possess the kingdom. With this in mind, when do non Premils typically conclude the time has come that the saints posses the kingdom? This is important since this parallels Revelation 20:4. Daniel 7:22 gives us the timing of the beginning of the thousand years.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

When do non Premils typically conclude this part is fulfilled?----and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

One thing is for certain, it is obviously meaning a time post verse 21.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Verse 22 begins with 'Until'. This should tell anyone that it is the coming seen in verse 22 that puts a stop once and for all to the war against the saints via the little horn. And when this coming occurs, this is when the time has come that the saints possess the kingdom. With this in mind, when do non Premils typically conclude the time has come that the saints posses the kingdom? This is important since this parallels Revelation 20:4. Daniel 7:22 gives us the timing of the beginning of the thousand years.

You missed Daniel 7:14. Dominion was given to the Son.

Ephesians 1:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Daniel 7:
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Herod Agrippa 1 is the 4th king in the Herodian dynasty. God strikes him dead. (Acts 12:21-23)

Acts 12:
17 But he, beckoning unto them with the hand to hold their peace, declared unto them how the Lord had brought him out of the prison. And he said, Go shew these things unto James, and to the brethren. And he departed, and went into another place.

18 Now as soon as it was day, there was no small stir among the soldiers, what was become of Peter.

19 And when Herod had sought for him, and found him not, he examined the keepers, and commanded that they should be put to death. And he went down from Judaea to Caesarea, and there abode.

20 And Herod was highly displeased with them of Tyre and Sidon: but they came with one accord to him, and, having made Blastus the king's chamberlain their friend, desired peace; because their country was nourished by the king's country.

21 And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them.

22 And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.

23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

24 But the word of God grew and multiplied.

Technically the saints "possessed the kingdom" at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out and He now permanently indwells believers.

 

[DavidPT]

You missed Daniel 7:14. Dominion was given to the Son.

That is apparently meaning when He initially ascended back to heaven in the first century.

Technically the saints "possessed the kingdom" at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out and He now permanently indwells believers.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


If in verse 22 they initially technically possess the kingdom at Pentecost, that means----the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them---has to fit before Pentecost and be fulfilled by the time of Pentecost. Where does it fit before Pentecost then?

 

[BABerean2]

And after many days(a thousand years) shall they be visited during satan's little season, where they meet their end at the time by being cast into the LOF to be tormented forever and ever. Meaning satan and his angels.

When did Paul say below that both the living and the dead would be judged?

2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:


When did Jesus say the living would be judged in the passage below, and how many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of the passage?

Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
Mat 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
Mat 25:37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
Mat 25:38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
Mat 25:39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
Mat 25:44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
Mat 25:45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

.

 

[The Righterzpen]

That is apparently meaning when He initially ascended back to heaven in the first century.

When He ascended to heaven upon death yes. His body was still in the grave at this point.

The end of Ephesians 1 is very clear. Jesus is in possession of all power and dominion at the resurrection. And the believers share that dominion because of the Holy Ghost indwelling them. Ephesians 1 explains that too.

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Why is it that you don't pay attention to these verses?

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

If in verse 22 they initially technically possess the kingdom at Pentecost, that means----the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them---has to fit before Pentecost and be fulfilled by the time of Pentecost. Where does it fit before Pentecost then?

Just because some one (or someones) does possess superior domain, does not mean they aren't attacked by the enemy. Herod Antipas persecuted the church and God stuck him down. Acts 12 is very clear about that.

Why is it that you don't pay attention to those verses?

 

[DavidPT]

Just because some one (or someones) does possess superior domain, does not mean they aren't attacked by the enemy. Herod Antipas persecuted the church and God stuck him down. Acts 12 is very clear about that.

Why is it that you don't pay attention to those verses?

How am I not paying attention to those verses? Clearly the little horn wages war against them before they possess the kingdom and not after as well. Do you not see that verse 22 clearly begins with 'Until'? Obviously that means this little horn wages war with them, and prevailed against them all the way up until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

How can these not be describing the same events? How can Revelation 13:7 be meaning before Pentecost?

How can the following not be correct?

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Obviously, once the time comes that the saints possess the kingdom, it's meaning the 42 month reign of the beast has then finished it's course, thus fulfilled and in the past at this point. The 42 month reign of the beast leads to His 2nd coming, that is what follows it, therefore that is what Daniel 7:22 is referring to as well, His 2nd coming.

 

[DavidPT]

When did Paul say below that both the living and the dead would be judged?

2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:


When did Jesus say the living would be judged in the passage below, and how many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of the passage?

Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
Mat 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
Mat 25:37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
Mat 25:38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
Mat 25:39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
Mat 25:44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
Mat 25:45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

.

Explain all of that then in light of the following.


Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Clearly Daniel 7 shows in light of Revelation 13 that Revelation 20:4 must be meaning after the 2nd coming.

 

[The Righterzpen]

How am I not paying attention to those verses? Clearly the little horn wages war against them before they possess the kingdom and not after as well. Do you not see that verse 22 clearly begins with 'Until'? Obviously that means this little horn wages war with them, and prevailed against them all the way up until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Well, let's take a look at the Hebrew. Are you aware that Hebrew doesn't actually have a "future tense". It has what's called "perfect tenses" (and imperfect tense). Which the "perfect tense" which is often translated as future is part of a chain of events in the process of being fulfilled. "Imperfect tense" is used in cases where a one time event happened in historical context. I.E. - David fought Goliath.

Daniel 7:22
Until (even to) that came the Ancient of Days and a judgement in favor was made toward the saints of the most high; and the time came for the kingdom to possess the saints.

"came", "judgement", "made", "came" and "possess" are all "perfect tense".

Now the rendering in Hebrew is a bit interesting here. "Saints" is an adjective. An adjective describes a noun. "Kingdom" is the determinate noun. The "saints" are connected to the already established "Kingdom"; because it is already established. So it could actually be rendered correctly either way. It's the "Kingdom of the saints" (like one might say "Kingdom of Great Britain" as opposed to "Kingdom of Saudi Arabia") or the "Kingdom to possess the saints". The Kingdom of God goes forth and takes people from the Kingdom of Satan. So in that case the "Kingdom" really does possess the saints, not the other way around.

This is proven by the verses you quote below here.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Note: "... and power was given unto him......"; "...was given unto him to make war....." Given by whom? If the power is given to the beast, or Satan, than that power must belong to someone else.

(Back to the end of Ephesians 1.)

How did that "transfer of power" happen? The atonement which delivered those rightfully condemned for their sin; took the power to accuse them from Satan by use of the law. Satan is correct. The law condemns the sinner. Yet the law has no power over the sinner who's dead to it because s/he is now alive unto Christ.

 

[DavidPT]

Well, let's take a look at the Hebrew. Are you aware that Hebrew doesn't actually have a "future tense". It has what's called "perfect tenses" (and imperfect tense). Which the "perfect tense" which is often translated as future is part of a chain of events in the process of being fulfilled. "Imperfect tense" is used in cases where a one time event happened in historical context. I.E. - David fought Goliath.

Daniel 7:22
Until (even to) that came the Ancient of Days and a judgement in favor was made toward the saints of the most high; and the time came for the kingdom to possess the saints.

"came", "judgement", "made", "came" and "possess" are all "perfect tense".

Now the rendering in Hebrew is a bit interesting here. "Saints" is an adjective. An adjective describes a noun. "Kingdom" is the determinate noun. The "saints" are connected to the already established "Kingdom"; because it is already established. So it could actually be rendered correctly either way. It's the "Kingdom of the saints" (like one might say "Kingdom of Great Britain" as opposed to "Kingdom of Saudi Arabia") or the "Kingdom to possess the saints". The Kingdom of God goes forth and takes people from the Kingdom of Satan. So in that case the "Kingdom" really does possess the saints, not the other way around.

This is proven by the verses you quote below here.



Note: "... and power was given unto him......"; "...was given unto him to make war....." Given by whom? If the power is given to the beast, or Satan, than that power must belong to someone else.

(Back to the end of Ephesians 1.)

How did that "transfer of power" happen? The atonement which delivered those rightfully condemned for their sin; took the power to accuse them from Satan by use of the law. Satan is correct. The law condemns the sinner. Yet the law has no power over the sinner who's dead to it because s/he is not alive unto Christ.

It's still a little early here, yet you appear to be making some interesting points. But I need to get better focused first then take a closer look at what you said here. In order for me to agree or disagree with anything you said, I also need to be on the same page with you first.

 

[BABerean2]

Explain all of that then in light of the following.


Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Clearly Daniel 7 shows in light of Revelation 13 that Revelation 20:4 must be meaning after the 2nd coming.

I do not have to give an interpretation of the Old Testament or New Testament texts to prove that Paul was wrong in 2 Timothy 4:1.
That would be your job.

Jesus revealed the one judgment of the dead in John 5:27-30.
The timing of that event is found in Revelation 11:18.

Jesus explained the judgment of the living at His Second Coming in Matthew 25:31-46, with no mortals left alive at the end of the passage.
We also find the living "nations" in Revelation 11:18, right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

Paul said Christ returns in fire in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
Peter said the same thing in 2 Peter 3:10-13.

.

 

[DavidPT]

Well, let's take a look at the Hebrew. Are you aware that Hebrew doesn't actually have a "future tense". It has what's called "perfect tenses" (and imperfect tense). Which the "perfect tense" which is often translated as future is part of a chain of events in the process of being fulfilled. "Imperfect tense" is used in cases where a one time event happened in historical context. I.E. - David fought Goliath.

Daniel 7:22
Until (even to) that came the Ancient of Days and a judgement in favor was made toward the saints of the most high; and the time came for the kingdom to possess the saints.

"came", "judgement", "made", "came" and "possess" are all "perfect tense".

Now the rendering in Hebrew is a bit interesting here. "Saints" is an adjective. An adjective describes a noun. "Kingdom" is the determinate noun. The "saints" are connected to the already established "Kingdom"; because it is already established. So it could actually be rendered correctly either way. It's the "Kingdom of the saints" (like one might say "Kingdom of Great Britain" as opposed to "Kingdom of Saudi Arabia") or the "Kingdom to possess the saints". The Kingdom of God goes forth and takes people from the Kingdom of Satan. So in that case the "Kingdom" really does possess the saints, not the other way around.

This is proven by the verses you quote below here.

I'm a bit more focused than I was earlier on. I have reread your post several times now. How about this then? Provide a real world analogy that best represents your interpretation of Daniel 7:22.

As to your point about all these things being in the present tense, what source or sources are you determining that via?

Note: "... and power was given unto him......"; "...was given unto him to make war....." Given by whom? If the power is given to the beast, or Satan, than that power must belong to someone else.

(Back to the end of Ephesians 1.)

How did that "transfer of power" happen? The atonement which delivered those rightfully condemned for their sin; took the power to accuse them from Satan by use of the law. Satan is correct. The law condemns the sinner. Yet the law has no power over the sinner who's dead to it because s/he is now alive unto Christ.

You somewhat lost me here.

Aren't we already told by whom?

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

 

[DavidPT]

I do not have to give an interpretation of the Old Testament or New Testament texts to prove that Paul was wrong in 2 Timothy 4:1.
That would be your job.

Jesus revealed the one judgment of the dead in John 5:27-30.
The timing of that event is found in Revelation 11:18.

Jesus explained the judgment of the living at His Second Coming in Matthew 25:31-46, with no mortals left alive at the end of the passage.
We also find the living "nations" in Revelation 11:18, right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

Paul said Christ returns in fire in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
Peter said the same thing in 2 Peter 3:10-13.

.

Perhaps you simply feel the OT is no longer holy writ, though I'm betting you actually don't? I don't know why you feel the OT is not relevant in the understanding of the NT? You appear to maybe think things only work one way--the NT sheds light on the OT, but the OT never sheds light on the NT though. These things have to square with one another somehow, not contradict.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Aren't we already told by whom?

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

When we were born again, we gave the power, seat and great authority in our heart to Jesus Christ to be our Lord, the Savior. In Revelation 13:2, however, the beast is a body of professed Christians of the congregation (woman) who have not yet sealed (saved) by Christ. They hate the church for who she once was, representing the Gospel Truth, so God allowed them to give power, seat and great authority to Satan to destroy the church as judgment for their unfaithfulness. This is how they are being deceived thinking they are saved by just attending to the church and wondered after the gospel of the devil in the congregation. As it is written:

Rev 17:15-18
(15) And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
(16) And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
(17) For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
(18) And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

 

[BABerean2]

Perhaps you simply feel the OT is no longer holy writ, though I'm betting you actually don't? I don't know why you feel the OT is not relevant in the understanding of the NT? You appear to maybe think things only work one way--the NT sheds light on the OT, but the OT never sheds light on the NT though. These things have to square with one another somehow, not contradict.

The Old Testament prophets saw the types and shadows. Paul reveals this below.

Col 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

They may have described a tabernacle, but may not have understood that the Messiah is the ultimate fulfillment of the tabernacle.

Anyone who attempts to use the Old Testament to disprove what the New Testament authors have declared, is attempting to promote a man-made doctrine.

.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Perhaps you simply feel the OT is no longer holy writ, though I'm betting you actually don't? I don't know why you feel the OT is not relevant in the understanding of the NT? You appear to maybe think things only work one way--the NT sheds light on the OT, but the OT never sheds light on the NT though. These things have to square with one another somehow, not contradict.

The Old Testament and New Testament do square. I have explained to you how they do. Many people on this thread have explained to you how they do. The explanations don't jive with your particular eschatological belief.

You've been given verses for:
The final resurrection includes all (believers and unbelievers) who have not been resurrected already. Several people have given you verses for that.

The Scripture only speaks of 2 resurrections. The one that happened shortly after Christ was raised. (Which is recored for us in the Bible) and the one that happens at the end of time.

Judgment day and the coming of Christ are the same event.

Christ began to reign when he rose from the dead.

As to your point about all these things being in the present tense, what source or sources are you determining that via?

I didn't say "present tense" I said "perfect tense". Perfect at times is translated as future because it's part of a chain of events that brings about a certain completed action. The action may have started prior to the passage written; but may not be competed as of the time the passage is written.

This is only in Hebrew. Greek does have a "future tense" as well as a "perfect tense". Yet things in Greek that are translated as "future tense" may not actually be future tense either. Some Greek verbs are tied to the time the speaker is making the statement.

For example: When Jesus says: "When you see (or recognize) the abomination that makes desolate standing in the holy place......" That verb form is tied to the time the speaker is making the statement, meaning "the abomination that makes desolate" was "standing in the holy place" at the time Jesus made the statement. That's not a matter of interpretation. That's a matter of understanding the format of the Greek verbs.

Also, "the son of perdition" (which dispensationalist believe is some future false messiah) is actually named in the Scripture as Judas Iscariot. John 17:12

Aren't we already told by whom?

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

God is in control of Satan. He actually always has a been. Look at the book of Job. Satan wasn't allowed to kill Job and that was even before Satan was "bound".

 

[DavidPT]

I didn't say "present tense" I said "perfect tense". Perfect at times is translated as future because it's part of a chain of events that brings about a certain completed action. The action may have started prior to the passage written; but may not be competed as of the time the passage is written.

This is only in Hebrew. Greek does have a "future tense" as well as a "perfect tense". Yet things in Greek that are translated as "future tense" may not actually be future tense either. Some Greek verbs are tied to the time the speaker is making the statement.

For example: When Jesus says: "When you see (or recognize) the abomination that makes desolate standing in the holy place......" That verb form is tied to the time the speaker is making the statement, meaning "the abomination that makes desolate" was "standing in the holy place" at the time Jesus made the statement. That's not a matter of interpretation. That's a matter of understanding the format of the Greek verbs.

Also, "the son of perdition" (which dispensationalist believe is some future false messiah) is actually named in the Scripture as Judas Iscariot. John 17:12

When I said present tense, it was likely a typo on my part. Sometimes I don't always catch typos, and unless someone points it out, I might not even realize I made a typo. I'm pondering what all you said above. I have no reply to it atm. Maybe later I will, though I don't know for certain as of yet.

God is in control of Satan. He actually always has a been. Look at the book of Job. Satan wasn't allowed to kill Job and that was even before Satan was "bound".

But why couldn't satan do anything to Job initially? Would this not be one reason why?

Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.


This doesn't mean I'm disagreeing with you that God is in control of satan. The book of Job is a good example why the binding and imprisoning of satan in Revelation 20 can't be what Amils claim it is. It has to be something far more profound. As in, satan is actually cast somewhere where he is shut off from the outside world entirely. And as to from the outside worlds' perspective at the time, it's as if satan no longer exists anymore.

 

[DavidPT]

The Old Testament and New Testament do square. I have explained to you how they do. Many people on this thread have explained to you how they do. The explanations don't jive with your particular eschatological belief.

You've been given verses for:
The final resurrection includes all (believers and unbelievers) who have not been resurrected already. Several people have given you verses for that.

The Scripture only speaks of 2 resurrections. The one that happened shortly after Christ was raised. (Which is recored for us in the Bible) and the one that happens at the end of time.

Judgment day and the coming of Christ are the same event.

Christ began to reign when he rose from the dead.

As far as resurrection events, there was Christ's, then the saints that bodily arose soon after, then the first resurrection and the final resurrection seen in Revelation 20. That doesn't add up to 2 resurrection events. It sounds like at least 4 resurrection events to me.

 

[DavidPT]

The Old Testament prophets saw the types and shadows. Paul reveals this below.

Col 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

They may have described a tabernacle, but may not have understood that the Messiah is the ultimate fulfillment of the tabernacle.

Anyone who attempts to use the Old Testament to disprove what the New Testament authors have declared, is attempting to promote a man-made doctrine.

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You can't apply that context to the entire OT though.

 

[BABerean2]

As far as resurrection events, there was Christ's, then the saints that bodily arose soon after, then the first resurrection and the final resurrection seen in Revelation 20. That doesn't add up to 2 resurrection events. It sounds like at least 4 resurrection events to me.

Why did you skip the verse below?

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Can you have a judgment of the dead without a resurrection of the dead?

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[BABerean2]

You can't apply that context to the entire OT though.

Christ did.

In the passage below the Son of God reveals that the books of Moses, and "all" the prophets are about Him.
How many is "all"?

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

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