My God My God

CherubRam

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This statement is severely misleading, on multiple points.

Mysticism is just pursuit of knowledge of divine mysteries. It is not a unique trait of "the occult" or of "cults".

There was no "original Orthodox Judaism". The Jewish religion has been ever-evolving, as every religion has done in history. The oldest evidence we have was of polytheistic Canaanites. Some of them banded together and founded kingdoms, Israel in the north and Judah in the south. Both were thoroughly polytheistic. By the middle of the first millennium BC, Israel was gone and Judah was perpetually under foreign rule. Judah's national polytheism evolved into national monolatry, then national monotheism, which splintered between different sects (Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, etc). But polytheism still existed within Judah, and among Judeans who had settled abroad. Mysticism has always been a part of Judean religion. The most obvious example of mysticism is the prophets themselves, who sought to communicate with the divine directly. This is especially the case with the apocalyptic prophets, since an "apocalypse" is literally a "revelation" of those divine mysteries.

There was also no "original" Christianity. If we're starting with Jesus, he was not a Christian. He was an apocalyptic Galilean who shared certain common views with Pharisees and Essenes. The Transfiguration event is an expression of mysticism. Jesus' eschatology in the gospel of Matthew is straight out of 1 Enoch, one of the clearest expressions of mysticism from Second Temple Judaism. If we're starting with Jesus' earliest followers, there were multiple competing sects. If we look to Paul, he practiced mysticism (his "revelation" of Jesus as God's son, his vision in 2 Cor 12), and taught mystic practices to his churches (prophecy, visions, and tongues).

"Orthodox" Judaism didn't emerge until a while after the second temple's fall, and even then the Rabbinic literature testifies to mystic practices, such as merkava and hekalot vision-seeking. "Orthodox" Christianity only began forming in the late second century (since there were still competing sects). Mysticism was still common in this time, such as the visions in the Shepherd of Hermas or the followers of Montanus.

Judaism and Christianity both have their roots in mysticism. Their mysticism just happens to not look like the cartoonish rituals people imagine are practiced by "the occult".


We have almost no historically reliable information about Jesus' earliest disciples. The twelve apostles were not "Christians", they were Torah-abiding members of Second Temple Judaism who believed the messiah had come. They evidently believed the end of the world was coming in their lifetime, which the Synoptic gospels show Jesus teaching. This tells us Jesus and his disciples believed certain apocalyptic traditions, which were common to the late Second Temple period. Where apocalypticism is found, you're looking at mysticism. Jesus and the disciples did not "combat" mysticism, it was necessary for their apocalypticism.

You say there was no original Orthodox Judaism, that statement is false. What is true is that the Jews were always in trouble with God, for adding what is not pure to God and Judaism.

Throughout history, there has been Orthodox Jewish Rabbis who were against Kabbalah. There are still Jewish movements today that are anti-Kabbalah. Hasidic Judaism is a movement within Haredi Judaism that focuses on the study of the spiritual and joyful elements of the Talmud. It has its roots in the anti-Kabbalah movements of the 13th century.
 
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dlamberth

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Throughout history, there has been Orthodox Jewish Rabbis who were against Kabbalah. There are still Jewish movements today that are anti-Kabbalah. Hasidic Judaism is a movement within Haredi Judaism that focuses on the study of the spiritual and joyful elements of the Talmud. It has its roots in the anti-Kabbalah movements of the 13th century.
I have no idea how anyone can do anything spiritually and not touch on mysticism. Could you explain that please?
 
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CherubRam

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This statement is severely misleading, on multiple points.

Mysticism is just pursuit of knowledge of divine mysteries. It is not a unique trait of "the occult" or of "cults".

There was no "original Orthodox Judaism". The Jewish religion has been ever-evolving, as every religion has done in history. The oldest evidence we have was of polytheistic Canaanites. Some of them banded together and founded kingdoms, Israel in the north and Judah in the south. Both were thoroughly polytheistic. By the middle of the first millennium BC, Israel was gone and Judah was perpetually under foreign rule. Judah's national polytheism evolved into national monolatry, then national monotheism, which splintered between different sects (Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, etc). But polytheism still existed within Judah, and among Judeans who had settled abroad. Mysticism has always been a part of Judean religion. The most obvious example of mysticism is the prophets themselves, who sought to communicate with the divine directly. This is especially the case with the apocalyptic prophets, since an "apocalypse" is literally a "revelation" of those divine mysteries.

There was also no "original" Christianity. If we're starting with Jesus, he was not a Christian. He was an apocalyptic Galilean who shared certain common views with Pharisees and Essenes. The Transfiguration event is an expression of mysticism. Jesus' eschatology in the gospel of Matthew is straight out of 1 Enoch, one of the clearest expressions of mysticism from Second Temple Judaism. If we're starting with Jesus' earliest followers, there were multiple competing sects. If we look to Paul, he practiced mysticism (his "revelation" of Jesus as God's son, his vision in 2 Cor 12), and taught mystic practices to his churches (prophecy, visions, and tongues).

"Orthodox" Judaism didn't emerge until a while after the second temple's fall, and even then the Rabbinic literature testifies to mystic practices, such as merkava and hekalot vision-seeking. "Orthodox" Christianity only began forming in the late second century (since there were still competing sects). Mysticism was still common in this time, such as the visions in the Shepherd of Hermas or the followers of Montanus.

Judaism and Christianity both have their roots in mysticism. Their mysticism just happens to not look like the cartoonish rituals people imagine are practiced by "the occult".


We have almost no historically reliable information about Jesus' earliest disciples. The twelve apostles were not "Christians", they were Torah-abiding members of Second Temple Judaism who believed the messiah had come. They evidently believed the end of the world was coming in their lifetime, which the Synoptic gospels show Jesus teaching. This tells us Jesus and his disciples believed certain apocalyptic traditions, which were common to the late Second Temple period. Where apocalypticism is found, you're looking at mysticism. Jesus and the disciples did not "combat" mysticism, it was necessary for their apocalypticism.
You know why the Jews were always in trouble with God? It is because they would not listen to Him.
You are wrong again.
These things are not of Kabbalah.

Dreams Parables Proverbs Riddles Sayings Visions.


The bible often is written in a parable without giving any indication that it is parabolic.


Numbers 12:8

With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?”


Psalm 49:4

I will turn my ear to a proverb; with the harp I will expound my riddle:


Proverbs 1:6

for understanding proverbs and parables, the sayings and riddles of the wise.


Daniel 5:12

He did this because Daniel, whom the king called Belteshazzar, was found to have a keen mind and knowledge and understanding, and also the ability to interpret dreams, explain riddles and solve difficult problems. Call for Daniel, and he will tell you what the writing means.”


Ezekiel 20:49

Then I said, “Sovereign LORD, they are saying of me, ‘Isn’t he just telling parables?’”


Hosea 12:10

I spoke to the prophets, gave them many visions and told parables through them.”


Matthew 13:3

Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed.


Matthew 13:10

The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”


Matthew 13:13

This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.


Matthew 13:34

Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.


Matthew 13:35

So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: “I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.”


Psalm 78

2 I will open my mouth with a parable; I will utter hidden things, things from of old...
 
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CherubRam

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I have no idea how anyone can do anything spiritually and not touch on mysticism. Could you explain that please?

We are talking about a very fine line; on one side is truth, and on the side is falsehood. So what is the difference? On the right side we have acts of God and divinely inspired men. And on the left side we have falsehood.
 
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CherubRam

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"Let there be Light" ... You can't get any more mystical than that.
Again, there is divine inspiration without deception.

Kabbalah is for want to be spiritual leaders.
 
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dlamberth

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We are talking about a very fine line; on one side is truth, and on the side is falsehood. So what is the difference? On the right side we have acts of God and divinely inspired men. And on the left side we have falsehood.
You didn't answer. Here is it again: How can anyone do anything spiritual and not touch on the mystical aspect?
 
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caerlerion

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Throughout history, there has been Orthodox Jewish Rabbis who were against Kabbalah.
I wasn't talking about Kabbalah (Middle Ages).

I was talking about the mysticism present in Canaanite religion (Late Bronze Age), Israelite and Judean religion (Iron Age), Second Temple Judaism, and Christianity of the first two centuries.
 
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CherubRam

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You didn't answer. Here is it again: How can anyone do anything spiritual and not touch on the mystical aspect?
Mysticism is the practice of religious ecstasies (religious experiences during alternate states of consciousness), together with whatever ideologies, ethics, rites, myths, legends, and magic may be related to them.
 
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CherubRam

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I wasn't talking about Kabbalah (Middle Ages).

I was talking about the mysticism present in Canaanite religion (Late Bronze Age), Israelite and Judean religion (Iron Age), Second Temple Judaism, and Christianity of the first two centuries.
Gnosticism, Mysticism, and Paganism, they enter into Christianity with the passing of Christ's disciples.
 
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CherubRam

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If brought alive and animated with the Creator God, 'Let there be Light" becomes much, much more than simply Divine inspiration, does it not?
As a parable, the word "light" means truth.

1 Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.
 
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dlamberth

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Mysticism is the practice of religious ecstasies (religious experiences during alternate states of consciousness), together with whatever ideologies, ethics, rites, myths, legends, and magic may be related to them.
That sounds like a dictionary definition, but it's not really very accurate.

I don't know way, but mysticism really isn't very well understood in the Protestant world.
 
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caerlerion

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Gnosticism, Mysticism, and Paganism, they enter into Christianity with the passing of Christ's disciples.
This has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

Since you're just replying with non sequiturs, I'm gonna back out of this thread.
 
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CherubRam

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The "Light of God" has way more depth to it than some sort of "meaning". Especially when animated with the Creator God where it becomes alive and vibrant.
Going beyond what is written would be more confusion.
 
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ViaCrucis

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We all answer to God. Spiritual adults need no teacher or father. We are exhorted to grow up.

So you don't believe in listening to what the Apostles said in Scripture?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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