My God My God

CherubRam

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Not true. Christianity has always been linked to mysticism.
Mysticism is from the occult's and cult's. It is most certainly not the original Orthodox Judaism and Christianity. As a matter of fact, Christ and the disciples combated such things.
 
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Not David

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Mysticism is from the occult's and cult's. It is most certainly not the original Orthodox Judaism and Christianity. As a matter of fact, Christ and the disciples combated such things.
Mysticism does not refer only to the devil's and pagan's mysticism.
 
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W2L

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That's unbiblical and against what Paul said.
We also have John saying we need no teacher. (1 John 2:27) Scripture is a good teacher for those wanting to learn without the contentious traditions of denominations.


1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and [a]behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
 
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We also have John saying we need no teacher. (1 John 2:27) Scripture is a good teacher for those wanting to learn without the contentious traditions of denominations.


1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and [a]behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 1 Corinthians 12:28.
 
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W2L

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And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 1 Corinthians 12:28.
Yes He sent Paul, Peter, James, John, Mathew, Mark, Luke. I learned from them how to follow the Spirit.
 
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caerlerion

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Mysticism is from the occult's and cult's. It is most certainly not the original Orthodox Judaism and Christianity.
This statement is severely misleading, on multiple points.

Mysticism is just pursuit of knowledge of divine mysteries. It is not a unique trait of "the occult" or of "cults".

There was no "original Orthodox Judaism". The Jewish religion has been ever-evolving, as every religion has done in history. The oldest evidence we have was of polytheistic Canaanites. Some of them banded together and founded kingdoms, Israel in the north and Judah in the south. Both were thoroughly polytheistic. By the middle of the first millennium BC, Israel was gone and Judah was perpetually under foreign rule. Judah's national polytheism evolved into national monolatry, then national monotheism, which splintered between different sects (Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, etc). But polytheism still existed within Judah, and among Judeans who had settled abroad. Mysticism has always been a part of Judean religion. The most obvious example of mysticism is the prophets themselves, who sought to communicate with the divine directly. This is especially the case with the apocalyptic prophets, since an "apocalypse" is literally a "revelation" of those divine mysteries.

There was also no "original" Christianity. If we're starting with Jesus, he was not a Christian. He was an apocalyptic Galilean who shared certain common views with Pharisees and Essenes. The Transfiguration event is an expression of mysticism. Jesus' eschatology in the gospel of Matthew is straight out of 1 Enoch, one of the clearest expressions of mysticism from Second Temple Judaism. If we're starting with Jesus' earliest followers, there were multiple competing sects. If we look to Paul, he practiced mysticism (his "revelation" of Jesus as God's son, his vision in 2 Cor 12), and taught mystic practices to his churches (prophecy, visions, and tongues).

"Orthodox" Judaism didn't emerge until a while after the second temple's fall, and even then the Rabbinic literature testifies to mystic practices, such as merkava and hekalot vision-seeking. "Orthodox" Christianity only began forming in the late second century (since there were still competing sects). Mysticism was still common in this time, such as the visions in the Shepherd of Hermas or the followers of Montanus.

Judaism and Christianity both have their roots in mysticism. Their mysticism just happens to not look like the cartoonish rituals people imagine are practiced by "the occult".

As a matter of fact, Christ and the disciples combated such things.
We have almost no historically reliable information about Jesus' earliest disciples. The twelve apostles were not "Christians", they were Torah-abiding members of Second Temple Judaism who believed the messiah had come. They evidently believed the end of the world was coming in their lifetime, which the Synoptic gospels show Jesus teaching. This tells us Jesus and his disciples believed certain apocalyptic traditions, which were common to the late Second Temple period. Where apocalypticism is found, you're looking at mysticism. Jesus and the disciples did not "combat" mysticism, it was necessary for their apocalypticism.
 
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Not David

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This statement is severely misleading, on multiple points.

Mysticism is just pursuit of knowledge of divine mysteries. It is not a unique trait of "the occult" or of "cults".

There was no "original Orthodox Judaism". The Jewish religion has been ever-evolving, as every religion has done in history. The oldest evidence we have was of polytheistic Canaanites. Some of them banded together and founded kingdoms, Israel in the north and Judah in the south. Both were thoroughly polytheistic. By the middle of the first millennium BC, Israel was gone and Judah was perpetually under foreign rule. Judah's national polytheism evolved into national monolatry, then national monotheism, which splintered between different sects (Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, etc). But polytheism still existed within Judah, and among Judeans who had settled abroad. Mysticism has always been a part of Judean religion. The most obvious example of mysticism is the prophets themselves, who sought to communicate with the divine directly. This is especially the case with the apocalyptic prophets, since an "apocalypse" is literally a "revelation" of those divine mysteries.

There was also no "original" Christianity. If we're starting with Jesus, he was not a Christian. He was an apocalyptic Galilean who shared certain common views with Pharisees and Essenes. The Transfiguration event is an expression of mysticism. Jesus' eschatology in the gospel of Matthew is straight out of 1 Enoch, one of the clearest expressions of mysticism from Second Temple Judaism. If we're start with Jesus' earliest followers, there were multiple competing sects. If we look to Paul, he practiced mysticism (his "revelation" of Jesus as God's son, his vision in 2 Cor 12), and taught mystic practices to his churches (prophecy, visions, and tongues).

"Orthodox" Judaism didn't emerge until a while after the second temple's fall, and even then the Rabbinic literature testifies to mystic practices, such as merkava and hekalot vision-seeking. "Orthodox" Christianity only began forming in the late second century (since there were still competing sects). Mysticism was still common in this time, such as the visions in the Shepherd of Hermas or the followers of Montanus.

Judaism and Christianity both have their roots in mysticism. Their mysticism just happens to not look like the cartoonish rituals people imagine are practiced by "the occult".


We know have almost no historically reliable information about Jesus' earliest disciples. The twelve apostles were not "Christians", they were Torah-abiding members of Second Temple Judaism who believed the messiah had come. They evidently believed the end of the world was coming in their lifetime, which the Synoptic gospels show Jesus teaching. This tells us Jesus and his disciples believed certain apocalyptic traditions, which were common to the late Second Temple period. Where apocalypticism is found, you're looking at mysticism. Jesus and the disciples did not "combat" mysticism, it was necessary for their apocalypticism.
I agree with you on the mysticism part, the rest I don't.
 
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CherubRam

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Mysticism does not refer only to the devil's and pagan's mysticism.
Throughout history, there has been Orthodox Jewish Rabbis who were against Kabbalah. There are still Jewish movements today that are anti-Kabbalah. Hasidic Judaism is a movement within Haredi Judaism that focuses on the study of the spiritual and joyful elements of the Talmud. It has its roots in the anti-Kabbalah movements of the 13th century.
 
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