We need a two-pronged attack to get a sane medical system

Pommer

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Josheb, Jesus said render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's. Today's enlightened, compassionate, humanistic governments ( i.e. Caesar) have, in their great prosperity, made the decision that health care is a human right.
Our government, sadly, influenced by big corporations and greedy lobbyists, have greatly exacerbated poverty and inequality in America. But because we have a democracy, we can choose to render our time and talent to "Caesar" to make our country a model of justice and fairness.
Some Christians subscribe to the notion that government becomes a problem when it usurps biblical teachings.


They are seemingly unable to see that Christians have WON over the GOVERNMENTS to do God’s bidding!

It’s like they fear to own the victory that it is, choosing, rather to continue the “big government is BAD” mantra!
 
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Richard T

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Healthcare policy is a difficult giant. Some of the problems I envision is you have no mention of how the system will be paid for? Secondly, a bronze plan is high deductible, so most would gain worse coverage than before as nearly all employers that subsidize health insurance will force their employees to the public system. When government price fixes, they attempt to lower the price and as a result shortages occur, and in health care this means rationing and long waiting times. Many Dr. already do not take medicaid and/ or medicaid patients so it could be a real problem if Dr's and health systems are not willing to lower charges. Rather than such a drastic change, the government should promote more competition. Allow people to buy drugs from other countries directly. Allow insurers to write more basic policies with exclusions so people can afford to have major medical without all the bells and whistles. Personally, I would prefer 1/2 the drugs move from prescription to over the counter, like many other countries. This will eliminate millions of Dr visits alone. Sure some people might misdiagnose themselves, but better to have access to potentially helpful drugs than to have none at all. On the supply side, the U.S. government should encourage more medical schools to open. Flood the market with Dr's and other health professionals. Shorten the time to completion too, by getting rid of some of the general education requirements in the Bachelor's. Missouri is leading the way too by letting those with an MD, practice medicine (with some restrictions) even if they did not complete a residency. Government could force price transparency. Suppose a Dr. refers you for an MRI. All the local providers should have a price list that you would be given. These are just a few ideas I see commonly. There are many other things that can be done to help with the health care costs in the USA. The impediment is MONEY. Pharmaceuticals are the top advertisers, so media owners love the current system. Insurers and health providers also flood Congress with campaign donations.Thus, if you want a real fix you have to work on some the structure the U.S. has like eliminating commercials for drugs, which used to be done.
 
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Josheb

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Josheb, Jesus said render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's. Today's enlightened, compassionate, humanistic governments ( i.e. Caesar) have, in their great prosperity, made the decision that health care is a human right.
Our government, sadly, influenced by big corporations and greedy lobbyists, have greatly exacerbated poverty and inequality in America. But because we have a democracy, we can choose to render our time and talent to "Caesar" to make our country a model of justice and fairness.
Medical care and insurance is not Caesar's.

Arguments insinuating a lack of enightenment are ad hominem and avoid the single inquiry I made: what's the scriptural basis? Choosing to "render" our treasure (not just time and talent) is the exact opposite of what Jesus was saying. Jesus did not appeal to the government for help and nowhere in the epistolary do we find such an appeal. The repeated directive is for the church to meet others' needs. When it comes down to it not a single advocate for government program here has provided a scripturally exegetical reason for that position.
 
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Josheb

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"...promote the general welfare..."
The Constitution expressly limits the domains of both general welfare clauses and medical insurance and care is not one of those listed. As Christians we are avoiding responsibility and as members of a representative republic we are handing over power and authority we the people previously agree not to give the government. Bad on both accounts.
 
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Speedwell

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When it comes down to it not a single advocate for government program here has provided a scripturally exegetical reason for that position.
And in a secular republic there is absolutely no need to do so.
 
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Josheb

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If I take your argument correctly...and I boiled it down to its essence it’d be something like this:
“No true Christian would want the government under which they live to dictate their morals and moral obligations...such as educating and providing healthcare to their children.”
Is that close?
I certainly don't want to be guilty of a no true scotsman fallacy so let's not insinuate that into my position.

My argument is simple: There is no scriptural basis for this and there is no Constitutional basis for this.

Maybe I'm wrong so I asked: what is the scriptural basis? No one has given an exegtical argument to that inquiry. The attempts grossly abused scripture. That is objectively evident for all to read. What's the Constitutional basis? The "general welfare clauses," which have been abused by the left to expand government in direct conflict with the limits the Constitution expressly sets. If government-run medical care and insurance has no basis in scripture and no basis in the Constitution then we are not being response on either account. I'm open to a rational case but the ones so far all prove fallacious.
 
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Fantine

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In the course of history "Caesar" has encompassed many forms of government. Jesus told his followers to pay tax to an oppressive imperialist government--and you are bellyaching because your government espouses safety net programs such as Social Security and Medicare.

If first century Jews had to worry about what you're upset about they would have thought they were in heaven.
 
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carlv_52

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Why is it the U.S. federal government's job to provide medical insurance and care?

In Single Payer the government does NOT provide the care. They simply oversee the system of payment as I understand it.

And since it works in so many other developed countries (countries that have lots of freedom and good strong capitalist businesses) it seems like WE could utilize a system like that.

Instead we as Americans have a very high likelihood of being bankrupted by one illness. We all live in constant fear of losing our jobs and hence our affordable medical insurance.
 
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carlv_52

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None of you are addressing my dissent. You're posting around. America is not all other indistrialized nations. Christians are not to be basing our values and practices upon what the rest of the (ssecular) world does or doesn't do, and neither are we to look to the government to save us from our troubles.

So we are doing God's Will by watching millions of our fellow citizens suffer in poor health because taking care of each other would be too much like the secular world? God wants some of us to suffer more than others because of poverty?

In som elocales thay have your children for eight hours a day and feed them and nurture them so they can go home to spend an hour or two doing homework and watching television before the go to sleep only to get up the next day and repeat it all again and again. Those governments think this is a good thing and they are helping everyone. It is not scriptural.

So public education is against scripture? Wow, does God really want a nation of uneducated poor people suffering and dying due to lack of healthcare? This doesn't sound like something to strive for.
 
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MorkandMindy

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Why is it the U.S. federal government's job to provide medical insurance and care?

It is.

But it is also a good thing to debate the fundamental assumptions underlying an issue, such things as whether the government has a Biblical mandate to be involved in keeping an army, navy, air force or for schooling or for a space program or for surveillance
 
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cow451

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That is wrong scripturally, wrong Constitutionally, and wrong rationally.

It's a neat sounding sentence but it has no basis in scripture, the U.S. Constitution, and when those two conditions are taken into consideration the premise has no basis in reason. Fear happens on its own and it is not the government that "permits" it. The government is invariably a source of fear and suffering, even in the area of medical care and insurance. We're not Rome and Rome didn't tax the wealthy to manage fear and suffering in the populace.


I for one would like the federal government to stay out of the business of administrating medical care and medical insurance. When you provide me with a scriptural precedent and a scriptural case for the federal government requiring citizens to pay for medical insurance I'll read it, critique it, and consider its veracity. Until then the scriptural standard is the church meeting the needs of others cheerfully and generously and based upon real need and God's leading and provision.
Get back to us when “the Church” shows both willingness and capacity for such a task. Remember Jesus did not heal everyone, but a select few.
 
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cow451

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I certainly don't want to be guilty of a no true scotsman fallacy so let's not insinuate that into my position.

My argument is simple: There is no scriptural basis for this and there is no Constitutional basis for this.

Maybe I'm wrong so I asked: what is the scriptural basis? No one has given an exegtical argument to that inquiry. The attempts grossly abused scripture. That is objectively evident for all to read. What's the Constitutional basis? The "general welfare clauses," which have been abused by the left to expand government in direct conflict with the limits the Constitution expressly sets. If government-run medical care and insurance has no basis in scripture and no basis in the Constitution then we are not being response on either account. I'm open to a rational case but the ones so far all prove fallacious.
Why do we provide socialized healthcare for members of the Armed Forces?
 
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Josheb

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In Single Payer the government does NOT provide the care. They simply oversee the system of payment as I understand it.

And since it works in so many other developed countries (countries that have lots of freedom and good strong capitalist businesses) it seems like WE could utilize a system like that.

Instead we as Americans have a very high likelihood of being bankrupted by one illness. We all live in constant fear of losing our jobs and hence our affordable medical insurance.
You can keep your doctor.

Not a word in that post is true and the question asked wasn't answered and no scriptural basis has been provided.
 
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Josheb

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Why do we provide socialized healthcare for members of the Armed Forces?
Because the military is a Constitutionally mandated arena in which the government is empowered to address. In addition, these men and women work at reduced wages and risk their lives, not their livelihoods.
 
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Josheb

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Get back to us when “the Church” shows both willingness and capacity for such a task. Remember Jesus did not heal everyone, but a select few.
Nice (falacious) attempt to shift the burden but I've already answered and addressed that concern.

It is increasingly apparent posters are posting without having read my posts. I am being asked questions already answered (sometimes more than once) and none of my inquiries are being answered. It is also evident those dissenting my posts haven't considered my questions. Here are a few more: How can any Christian advocate political and social policy without a scriptural basis for doing so? How can citizens of a representative republic advocate socialist policies? How can Christians advocate socialist policies? How can any citizen claiming to abide by the rule of law support policies that violate the rule of law?

Those questions too will probably go unanswered.
 
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Josheb

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It is.

But it is also a good thing to debate the fundamental assumptions underlying an issue, such things as whether the government has a Biblical mandate to be involved in keeping an army, navy, air force or for schooling or for a space program or for surveillance
I completely agree.

However, I have raised two concerns, not one. 1) We are Christians and as such we are to base our thinking doctrines, and practices upon God's word. 2) We are Christians living in a constitutional representative republic, not a democracy and not a socialist society. We claim to live by the rule of law but a government run medical care system is not within the mandates of either scripture nor the U.S. Constitution.

So I have asked: what is the basis for such a thing. Make the scriptural case. Make the Constitutional case that reconciles with scripture. Or..... recognize that you can't and adjust thinking, policy, and practice accordingly.

Advocate godly principles and government and society will benefit.
 
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Josheb

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Some Christians subscribe to the notion that government becomes a problem when it usurps biblical teachings.

They are seemingly unable to see that Christians have WON over the GOVERNMENTS to do God’s bidding!

It’s like they fear to own the victory that it is, choosing, rather to continue the “big government is BAD” mantra!
Let me make sure I understand this post correctly. Am I to understand you to be saying Christians have already "won over" the government of the United States of American and are therefore empowered to have it run a medical care system because God bids us to do so?

If not, then please clarify.

And while you're at it tell me where I might find "big government is good" in the Bible."
 
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dogs4thewin

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Medicaid is administered by the state and I proposed continuing that as it works fairly well, in keeping with 'Small is beautiful', I would not propose administering it from the US government as that might be an administrative problem.
I have used Medicaid and I would disagree with your assertion that it works well.
 
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Pommer

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Let me make sure I understand this post correctly. Am I to understand you to be saying Christians have already "won over" the government of the United States of American and are therefore empowered to have it run a medical care system because God bids us to do so?

If not, then please clarify.

And while you're at it tell me where I might find "big government is good" in the Bible."
How would a Christian utopia differ from a secular government that takes care of the health of its citizens through legislation?
 
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