We need a two-pronged attack to get a sane medical system

[MorkandMindy]

Pres. Obama tried & failed, Pres. Trump tried & failed.

We need a big questionnaire on the Internet for people to petition for a unified public health system with no party affiliation component.

I think the public health system should be optional so anyone can keep their private system if it works well for them, and the public system would require monthly payments as per Obamacare bronze, but rated to go all the way down to zero at low incomes replacing medicaid and with age-reduced payments to also encompass medicare and with VA privileges and facilities.

The core of the public health system would be the single payer structure which means a state government department determines how much will be paid for what and with the clout the government has the charges will be reasonable

 

[MorkandMindy]

With a government negotiating prices and a big single payer prices are reasonably equitable.

Like in Britain a doctor in general practice gets around 200,000 dollars a year for 2,000 or so patients.

That's enough money to live on, but look at what it is, a 100 dollars a year per patient for the doctor and 80? dollars a year for the clinic, and other payments to hospitals.

My doctor here in the US is charges 250 dollars for one yearly minute visit (30 min with the tech then 30 min with the doctor) and 125 I think (I've never done it) per short visit. But I think the total charge for the one hour visit comes up to over a thousand after the owner of the clinic gets his cut and the MCO gets it's cut.

I find it difficult to get information on these prices, I've asked but things are not very transparent (as DaisyDay noted in an earlier thread)

 

[Josheb]

Pres. Obama tried & failed, Pres. Trump tried & failed.

We need a big questionnaire on the Internet for people to petition for a unified public health system with no party affiliation component....

Why is it the U.S. federal government's job to provide medical insurance and care?

 

[Sabertooth]

Why is it the U.S. federal government's job to provide medical insurance and care?

It is a valid consideration of infrastructure, like socialized education & the highway system.

 

[RDKirk]

Why is it the U.S. federal government's job to provide medical insurance and care?

Because a government that permits too much general, continuing fear and suffering in the population will find itself sliding downward in many other ways. It's the reason even the Roman Empire had a welfare program for poor Romans, and taxed the wealthy to provide for it.

Even Greek Hedonists understood the need for national welfare programs.

 

[Josheb]

Because a government that permits too much general, continuing fear and suffering in the population will find itself sliding downward in many other ways. It's the reason even the Roman Empire had a welfare program for poor Romans, and taxed the wealthy to provide for it.

Even Greek Hedonists understood the need for national welfare programs.

That is wrong scripturally, wrong Constitutionally, and wrong rationally.

It's a neat sounding sentence but it has no basis in scripture, the U.S. Constitution, and when those two conditions are taken into consideration the premise has no basis in reason. Fear happens on its own and it is not the government that "permits" it. The government is invariably a source of fear and suffering, even in the area of medical care and insurance. We're not Rome and Rome didn't tax the wealthy to manage fear and suffering in the populace.


I for one would like the federal government to stay out of the business of administrating medical care and medical insurance. When you provide me with a scriptural precedent and a scriptural case for the federal government requiring citizens to pay for medical insurance I'll read it, critique it, and consider its veracity. Until then the scriptural standard is the church meeting the needs of others cheerfully and generously and based upon real need and God's leading and provision.

 

[Josheb]

It is a valid consideration of infrastructure, like socialized education & the highway system.

The former is not permitted by the US Constitution and is a usurpation of scripture's mandate that parents be responsible for the education of their children, not the state. The former is permitted by the Constitution and is a matter for which fiscal responsibility can be accounted.

Are you thiking with the Bible in one hand and the U.S. Constitution in the other and a familiarity with both? Or is this based on political ideology?

 

[Paulos23]

Why is it the U.S. federal government's job to provide medical insurance and care?

Because of several failures.

Failure of the free market due to elastic demand for healthcare.

Failure of the free market to bring down the cost, ending up in both the private insurance and government spending on health care out of all industrial countries.

Honestly, if you care about results on a national scale, there is no reason to support the current system except for greed.

 

[RDKirk]

That is wrong scripturally, wrong Constitutionally, and wrong rationally.

It's a neat sounding sentence but it has no basis in scripture, the U.S. Constitution, and when those two conditions are taken into consideration the premise has no basis in reason.

We already have Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2, so you have to provide the scripture that commands Christians to fight against an edict by an earthly king to provide for any need of the people.

I pointed out that the Roman Empire already had a welfare system, and neither Jesus nor any of the apostles put up a fight against it.

 

[RDKirk]

The former is not permitted by the US Constitution and is a usurpation of scripture's mandate that parents be responsible for the education of their children, not the state. The former is permitted by the Constitution and is a matter for which fiscal responsibility can be accounted.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

"The general welfare" is broad.

 

[rjs330]

We already have Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2, so you have to provide the scripture that commands Christians to fight against an edict by an earthly king to provide for any need of the people.

I pointed out that the Roman Empire already had a welfare system, and neither Jesus nor any of the apostles put up a fight against it.

Scripture says to obey the laws. It NEVER says we are not allowed to participate in the political system. We have as much a right to participate as anyone else. We just have to obey the laws on the books.

 

[MorkandMindy]

Pres. Obama tried & failed, Pres. Trump tried & failed. ...

... which means a state government department determines how much will be paid for what and with the clout the government has the charges will be reasonable

Medicaid is administered by the state and I proposed continuing that as it works fairly well, in keeping with 'Small is beautiful', I would not propose administering it from the US government as that might be an administrative problem.

 

[Josheb]

We already have Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2, so you have to provide the scripture that commands Christians to fight against an edict by an earthly king to provide for any need of the people.

I pointed out that the Roman Empire already had a welfare system, and neither Jesus nor any of the apostles put up a fight against it.

Fail. Niether Biblcial pasage says anything about the government being the savior of society, nor Christians relying on the government for medical care. Neither is the practice of pagan governments the model for the church or gospel-infuenced society. Your reading of scripture would have Christians create the government as this authority and then submit to it because it's an authority. That is circular and unscriptural.

There is no scriptural edict for a king to provide for any need of the people. The op is yours, not mine, so the onus is on you to provide scriptural justifcaction for you rposition and not fallacious attempt to shift that burden to another. You should think about this because if you cannot find a place where scripture says the government should meet the medical needs of people then you shouldn't be advocating such politics.

 

[Josheb]

Because of several failures. Failure of the free market due to elastic demand for healthcare. Failure of the free market to bring down the cost, ending up in both the private insurance and government spending on health care out of all industrial countries.
Honestly, if you care about results on a national scale, there is no reason to support the current system except for greed.

I gotta give you a fail, too. First, the market was never free. Second the market covered just as many as are now covered (look it up). President Obama promised to cover 30 million and he did so but another 30 million lost their coverage. He simply shifted the class orientation of who was covered. Second, there is no requirement costs be low. Yes, costs could be less but that is the prerogative of the market - of which the consumer is a member and integral part. As far as greed goes, political greed is still greed. Furhtermore, nothing has changed in terms of corporate profits. Kaisar Permanente's profits rose last your by 9%. Cigna's profits rose 5% in 2017. Aetna's net income increase was 19%. In other words, this healthcare system the Obama adminstration falsely told us was gonna cover more people for less money and reduce costs to consumers and reduce profits to businesses has done noe of that.

Lost my health insurance because of the ACA. My monthly costs tripled and my deductible rose from $500.00 to $6,000.00. I now use a medical sharing serivce. I pay for medical services out of pocket and submit expenses that are then shared among those in the body of Christ. Doctors charge a great deal less because I pay outof pocket. I was recently treated for a mass in my lung. The pulmonary specialist charged $240.00 for an office visit but when I paid out of pocket I was charged $100.00 less. The CTScan costs $2300.00 but because I paid out of pocket I was reimbursed $1230.00. Everything I paid was submitted to the medical cost sharing service and every single penny I spent over my $300.00 deductible has been reimbursed without hassle in a timely manner.

The government has no business being in business. The premise comes from Marxism and it is to be decried.

 

[Josheb]

"The general welfare" is broad.

No, it is not. Liberals say it s broad but the Constitutionitself specifically states what are the domains of the federal government and it states quite plainly that which is not stated in the Constitution remains the domain of either the states or the citizenry.

Do please give the Constitution and the Bill of Rights a read before responidng further.

 

[Fantine]

That is wrong scripturally, wrong Constitutionally, and wrong rationally.

Last time I looked, Jesus wasn't walking the earth healing the sick, blind, deaf, mute, and lame....but the fact that He did so so often during his ministry is proof positive that Jesus wants us to be whole. To be healed. His heart was with the poor and disenfranchised---not the wealthy, who I bet had plenty of glib excuses in their time about why helping the poor was wrong according to their religious books and laws.

Look at the world stage. Every other industrialized nation has universal health care. Many of those have higher standards of living, better educated populaces, and higher overall happiness than our "swamp" of income inequality. Want to drain the swamp in real life? Correct the inequities of society. Recognize that health care is a human right. Bring back labor unions.

 

[Josheb]

Last time I looked, Jesus wasn't walking the earth healing the sick, blind, deaf, mute, and lame....but the fact that He did so so often during his ministry is proof positive that Jesus wants us to be whole. To be healed. His heart was with the poor and disenfranchised---not the wealthy, who I bet had plenty of glib excuses in their time about why helping the poor was wrong according to their religious books and laws.

Look at the world stage. Every other industrialized nation has universal health care. Many of those have higher standards of living, better educated populaces, and higher overall happiness than our "swamp" of income inequality. Want to drain the swamp in real life? Correct the inequities of society. Recognize that health care is a human right. Bring back labor unions.

None of you are addressing my dissent. You're posting around. America is not all other indistrialized nations. Christians are not to be basing our values and practices upon what the rest of the (ssecular) world does or doesn't do, and neither are we to look to the government to save us from our troubles.

Jesus was likely very wealthy. He was given gold, frankensence, and myrrh at birth and had that been invested as any godly father would have done then by the time Jesus began his ministry thirty years later he would lack for nothing. He wore a garment without any seams so valuable that the gamblers would not divide it at his death. When Ananias and Sapphira lied about their gifts to the church they were told the possessions were theirs to do with as they pleased. Throughout the entire Bible God's governance and jurisprudence is foundationally based on the principle of private proerty. Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimithea, and Saul of Tarsus were all well-to-do and not poor. Paul by choice worked as a tentmaker for the sake of the gospel. When you post stuff like the a bove a marked lack of knowledge and understanding of scripture is demonstrated.

Every bit of moral ground the government takes from the ekklesia is going to cost us. Every bit of theological ground they take is going to cost us. Every bit of financial and material ground they take will cost us. In som elocales thay have your children for eight hours a day and feed them and nurture them so they can go home to spend an hour or two doing homework and watching television before the go to sleep only to get up the next day and repeat it all again and again. Those governments think this is a good thing and they are helping everyone. It is not scriptural.

Scripture tells us everything we are and everything we have is God's. You and I were purchased at a price and our time, talent, treasure and very life is God's and God's alone. It is only those who either 1) don't have an integrated theology that covers all aspects of life or 2) those whose needs the church has not met that look to other saviors.

 

[Pommer]

None of you are addressing my dissent. You're posting around. America is not all other indistrialized nations. Christians are not to be basing our values and practices upon what the rest of the (ssecular) world does or doesn't do, and neither are we to look to the government to save us from our troubles.

Jesus was likely very wealthy. He was given gold, frankensence, and myrrh at birth and had that been invested as any godly father would have done then by the time Jesus began his ministry thirty years later he would lack for nothing. He wore a garment without any seams so valuable that the gamblers would not divide it at his death. When Ananias and Sapphira lied about their gifts to the church they were told the possessions were theirs to do with as they pleased. Throughout the entire Bible God's governance and jurisprudence is foundationally based on the principle of private proerty. Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimithea, and Saul of Tarsus were all well-to-do and not poor. Paul by choice worked as a tentmaker for the sake of the gospel. When you post stuff like the a bove a marked lack of knowledge and understanding of scripture is demonstrated.

Every bit of moral ground the government takes from the ekklesia is going to cost us. Every bit of theological ground they take is going to cost us. Every bit of financial and material ground they take will cost us. In som elocales thay have your children for eight hours a day and feed them and nurture them so they can go home to spend an hour or two doing homework and watching television before the go to sleep only to get up the next day and repeat it all again and again. Those governments think this is a good thing and they are helping everyone. It is not scriptural.

Scripture tells us everything we are and everything we have is God's. You and I were purchased at a price and our time, talent, treasure and very life is God's and God's alone. It is only those who either 1) don't have an integrated theology that covers all aspects of life or 2) those whose needs the church has not met that look to other saviors.

If I take your argument correctly...and I boiled it down to its essence it’d be something like this:
“No true Christian would want the government under which they live to dictate their morals and moral obligations...such as educating and providing healthcare to their children.”
Is that close?

 

[Fantine]

Josheb, Jesus said render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's. Today's enlightened, compassionate, humanistic governments ( i.e. Caesar) have, in their great prosperity, made the decision that health care is a human right.
Our government, sadly, influenced by big corporations and greedy lobbyists, have greatly exacerbated poverty and inequality in America. But because we have a democracy, we can choose to render our time and talent to "Caesar" to make our country a model of justice and fairness.

 

[MorkandMindy]

No, really I do have a problem.

My pay was increased from 9 dollars an hour to 10 and the next year to 11, specifically to get us off medicaid.

The company provides a health care plan but it is expensive and doesn't cover a lot of things.

In the end I had to leave the company to get medicaid back, but I've been saving up to get the roof reshingled and therefore have more than 2k in the bank so am still not eligible for Medicaid.

You can have a house worth 650,000 and a car worth, not sure there is a limit, but all day to day or maintenance or whatnot you will lose medicaid if you save for it. So it is no surprise poor people spend so much on rent and interest on debts because not using usury will cost even more.

So for 18 months I've been without medical cover.