Christianity in The Dark Ages

Mel333

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Hi everyone,

This is a great documentary about Christianity and the church during the decline of the Western Roman Empire if you haven't already seen it.

Thought it's amazing to see the first Christian artworks and how Christian art and the Church evolved through the years.


Enjoy!
 
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Not David

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Hi everyone,

This is a great documentary about Christianity and the church after the decline of the Roman Empire if you haven't already seen it.

Thought it's amazing to see the first Christian artworks and how Christian art and the Church evolved through the years.


Enjoy!
The Roman Empire existed during the Middle Ages.
 
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FireDragon76

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I am surprised, the idea that the Byzantine Empire wasn't really Roman persists.

Yeah, it's a result of biased historiography.

The poet Jalad al-Din Rumi got his name because he lived in what is now modern day Turkey in the 12th century. His name refers to the fact that Turkey was still considered Roman, having been only recently conquered by invading Islamic armies.
 
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FireDragon76

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Those churches were very much influenced by Byzantine art and architecture. Personally, I think it looks better than the Baroque aping neo-classical forms.
 
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Athanasius377

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Yes, ofcourse it still existed but it was in decline. According to google it ended 476 AD.
Actually it ended May 29, 1453.
 
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Resha Caner

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Actually it ended May 29, 1453.

Again, that's a western view. Mehmet claimed conquering Constantinople made him the new Caesar. Therefore, according to the Ottomans the Roman Empire didn't end until Mehmed VI abdicated in 1922.

Then, of course, there are the claims of the Holy Roman Empire, the Kaisers of Germany, the Tsars of Russia (all ethnic variations on "Caesar"). I'd bet Marvel Comics claims the Roman Empire still exists.
 
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Not David

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Again, that's a western view. Mehmet claimed conquering Constantinople made him the new Caesar. Therefore, according to the Ottomans the Roman Empire didn't end until Mehmed VI abdicated in 1922.

Then, of course, there are the claims of the Holy Roman Empire, the Kaisers of Germany, the Tsars of Russia (all ethnic variations on "Caesar"). I'd bet Marvel Comics claims the Roman Empire still exists.
The Ottomans and the Germans were foreigners who wanted to get recognition as "Romans", the Eastern Roman Empire was established as another Roman Empire besides the Western One.
 
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Resha Caner

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The Ottomans and the Germans were foreigners who wanted to get recognition as "Romans", the Eastern Roman Empire was established as another Roman Empire besides the Western One.

I'm aware of the history. Historians overwhelmingly consider the Byzantine Empire a continuation of the Roman, whereas they consider the Germanic, Rus, and Ottoman tribes as usurpers.

I was alluding to the never-ending debate regarding what defines an empire, nation, ethnicity, etc. What was the Roman Empire? Was it 1) a specific collection of institutions and laws, 2) a ruling elite, 3) an ethnic group, 4) a religion, 5) a territory?

The items in that list that allow you to call Byzantium an extension of Rome are #1 & #2. Byzantium only briefly ruled the Roman homeland (and usually during chaotic times when their authority was questionable), was constantly expanding and contracting in different regions, and largely consisted of a Greek populace (secondarily a Slavic populace).

And if you go with #1 & #2, an argument could be made for the Ottomans, maybe even the Germans. Ruling out the Ottomans as heirs of the Roman Empire smells of the same prejudice that caused previous historians to rule out the Byzantines as Roman heirs.
 
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I'm aware of the history. Historians overwhelmingly consider the Byzantine Empire a continuation of the Roman, whereas they consider the Germanic, Rus, and Ottoman tribes as usurpers.

I was alluding to the never-ending debate regarding what defines an empire, nation, ethnicity, etc. What was the Roman Empire? Was it 1) a specific collection of institutions and laws, 2) a ruling elite, 3) an ethnic group, 4) a religion, 5) a territory?

The items in that list that allow you to call Byzantium an extension of Rome are #1 & #2. Byzantium only briefly ruled the Roman homeland (and usually during chaotic times when their authority was questionable), was constantly expanding and contracting in different regions, and largely consisted of a Greek populace (secondarily a Slavic populace).

And if you go with #1 & #2, an argument could be made for the Ottomans, maybe even the Germans. Ruling out the Ottomans as heirs of the Roman Empire smells of the same prejudice that caused previous historians to rule out the Byzantines as Roman heirs.
Also number 3, 4 and 5
 
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Albion

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Yes, ofcourse it still existed but it was in decline. According to google it ended 476 AD.
In other words, it did NOT exist during the Middle Ages--unless we are thinking of the Eastern [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] often called the Byzantine Empire. But that is not how the terminology is normally used.
 
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Athanasius377

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Good discussion. I have read a lot about the Eastern Empire though I have not studied it on any truly academic level. I am of the opinion the Empire in the west didn’t suddenly cease with the fall of the last emperor in 476. Institutions and local governments still continued to exist even after the fifth century but on a far more neutered presence than old Imperial Rome. One can argue that it simply dissolved more and more until Charlemagne was crowned emperor in the west in 800. That was probably one of the major stepping stones to the great Schism that would take place during the Photian controversy 150 years later culminating in the Sack of Constantinople in 1204 by the Latins which cemented the Schism. That said I find it hard to accept a legitimate empire in the west given the Eastern Empire power during this time.
 
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Athanasius377

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Again, that's a western view. Mehmet claimed conquering Constantinople made him the new Caesar. Therefore, according to the Ottomans the Roman Empire didn't end until Mehmed VI abdicated in 1922.

Then, of course, there are the claims of the Holy Roman Empire, the Kaisers of Germany, the Tsars of Russia (all ethnic variations on "Caesar"). I'd bet Marvel Comics claims the Roman Empire still exists.
I see your point and you bring up some really good arguments. There are some striking similarities between the Ottomans and the Eastern Empire. The Millet system comes to mind. That said I think there are too many differences between the two to say they are truly successors to Rome. To be fair, the Eastern Empire was a shadow of itself relying on mercenaries and later it’s existence as a vassal state to truly be an Empire Roman or otherwise.
 
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