Questions about the timing of the thousand years

[DavidPT]

Jesus tells us how to interpret the symbols of Revelation. They are not literal, but symbolic.

When it comes to events having to do with Eschatology, does chronology play a role in determining what something might be meaning? For example. We are told the dead in Christ rise first. Then we are told Jesus and His armies confront the beast and it's armies. Then we are told the remnant are slain by Jesus. If chronology counts, how can the GWTJ precede any of the above events. If chronology counts, how can both the just and unjust rise at the same time?

 

[Dave L]

When it comes to events having to do with Eschatology, does chronology play a role in determining what something might be meaning? For example. We are told the dead in Christ rise first. Then we are told Jesus and His armies confront the beast and it's armies. Then we are told the remnant are slain by Jesus. If chronology counts, how can the GWTJ precede any of the above events. If chronology counts, how can both the just and unjust rise at the same time?

It all pans out if you study the kingdom according to Jesus first.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

You see, when one word here, and another word there is altered to make a theology fit the scripture, it results in theologies that do the same thing for other texts of the bible.

A better study ethic is required if the church is to survive as part of the kingdom of God.

Mt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 

[DavidPT]

Right, but you really aren't going to answer the question?

Apparently I'm not on the same page with you about something. Maybe we need to start over? Could you remind me what you are meaning here? Not trying to make excuses here, but I have some extra stresses in my life happening now, which tends to make it difficult to try and stay focused at all times. I'm the type of person sometimes, where I might notice my wife painting the railings on the steps leading outside, as I am taking the garbage out, thus I keep my hands off the railings. Then 2 minutes later as I am walking back up the steps, what do I do? I grab a hold of the railings of course. How did I forget that fast? I don't know, I have no clue.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Apparently I'm not on the same page with you about something. Maybe we need to start over? Could you remind me what you are meaning here? Not trying to make excuses here, but I have some extra stresses in my life happening now, which tends to make it difficult to try and stay focused at all times. I'm the type of person sometimes, where I might notice my wife painting the railings on the steps leading outside, as I am taking the garbage out, thus I keep my hands off the railings. Then 2 minutes later as I am walking back up the steps, what do I do? I grab a hold of the railings of course. How did I forget that fast? I don't know, I have no clue.

The question is, does the new Jerusalem descend after the earth is recreated or before.

 

[mkgal1]

One question: The word does mean "no millennium", doesn't it?

Yes - no literal 1000 years, is the belief.

ETA: Contrary to what the name (Amillennialism) implies, AMs do believe in a millennium. The millennium, however, is now: the present age of the church between the first and second comings of Christ in its entirety is the millennium. Therefore, while the AM does deny the Premillennial belief in a personal, literal reign of Christ upon the earth for 1,000 years following His second coming, he affirms that there is a millennium and that Christ rules. However, this messianic reign is not necessarily for a literal 1,000 years and it is wholly spiritual (non-earthly, non-visible) in nature. “This millennial reign is not something to be looked for in the future;” writes Hoekema, “it is going on now, and will be until Christ returns. Hence the term realized millennialism is an apt description of the view here defended–if it is remembered that the millennium in question is not an earthly but a heavenly reign,” (The Bible and the Future, p. 235).

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Some think it's meaning in this age and that it's not a literal thousand years. Others believe it happens in the next age after Christ has returned.

Maybe what needs to be figured out first, what can occur during the thousand years and what can't.

I would like to pose some questions then.

1----can satan deceive any nations during the thousand years?

2----can satan wage war with anyone during the thousand years?

3----can saints be persecuted and killed during the thousand years?

4----can satan continue to do what is said of him in 1 Peter 5:8, during the thousand years?

5----does satan still act as god of this world during the thousand years, where he can still continue to blind the minds of them which believe not?

6----can anyone begin reigning with Christ after the fact, meaning they weren't yet reigning with Him when the thousand years initially began, but begin reigning with Him at some future point during the thousand years?

If you were to ask a Premil all 6 of these questions, I'm pretty sure all would be in full agreement about the answers. The answers to all 6 questions being no. But not everyone is Premil though.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

When it comes to Amil vs Premil, speaking for myself, I see some things that appear to fit Amil better than it does Premil. Yet I also see some things that appear to fit Premil better than it does Amil. Even though I'm Premil I'm not fully closedminded to Amil, though I really should be since all hardcore Amils are obviously fully closedminded to Premil. I'm yet to encounter one hardcore Amil who isn't fully closedminded to Premil.

I'm presently a hardcore Premil, yet I'm not fully closedminded to Amil. Maybe that makes me more reasonable overall than them? I dont know.

This is the beginning of what I wrote about Revelation 20 in my article on the end times.
Revelation 20
Revelation 20 uses some pictorial illustrations that are not common in the Bible. Maybe even some that are unique. For this reason, taken alone, it makes it very hard to comprehend. Little wonder then that in a world where sensationalism based on current events passes for sound Biblical teachings; it's almost predictable that one of the most difficult chapters to interpret would be one of the most cited. It's actually almost used to determine the varied viewpoints of pop culture prophecy. This is why it was skipped until the article could go to the end of the timeline. As stated in the last section. A proper grasp of the New Jerusalem completely rules out the way most of the various end time beliefs use Revelation 20. When there is something where the meaning is so perfectly clear, like the New Jerusalem along with many other prophecies about the Great Gospel Age. Then it's safe to say that something so unclear as Revelation 20 should fit inside that bigger picture that is clear. It should compliment it. It can not contradict it. Revelation 21-22 illustrates a time period where all of the promises of God ever made in the Bible concerning life on earth are being fulfilled in many of his people's lives and circumstances. The New Jerusalem is a pictorial illustration of the very promise made to Abraham. "Through your descendant, all the nations of the earth will be blessed." It's all so very simple. What the Bible said will come to pass is coming to pass. The nations of the world are slowly but surely being influenced by the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the conduct of those influenced by it. If you understand what the ancient world use to be like. If you are not ignorant, brainwashed or in denial about it. If you can grasp how abominable it was. How insane, dysfunctional and how people who desired good really never had a chance. Then you are a candidate to understand the great thing God has done in the earth that you, are a beneficiary of! Further you can grasp how it's the duty of believers and all who will work with them to bring these great blessings to descendants of those who have not yet tasted of them. After all they were brought to you, by those who went before.
How does this all tie in with Revelation 20? It's simple really. Revelation chapter 20 just like Revelation 21-22 comes after the fall of the Roman Empire. Therefore. If one can see that Revelation 21-22 is what has been happening. Or at least starting to happen in the grand scheme of things since 1453 A.D. Then logically that would mean that Revelation 20 is also happening, or starting to happen since that Age of the Gentiles ended. This article will attempt to show that this is indeed the case. This will be a very difficult part of this article to understand. It will require some intense thought. Like exercise, it may be unpleasant for some who are not use to it. Don't let that dissuade you though. Ultimately it will be good for you.
Revelation 20 contains prophecy, but it also contains doctrine in picture form. Not only this, some of this doctrine in picture form is seemingly more relevant to this age than to the age it was written in. The doctrine or teachings are in the New (and Old) Testaments. However not allot of chapter and verse is spent on it. The reason for this is that Jesus and the writers of the New Testament were speaking to generations that were facing intense persecutions. The loss of everything at best and martyrdom at worst. This of course is no different today for those who bring the Gospel to people it has not touched before. Yet it is there and the apostles and churches were able to walk in it to the degree it was applicable to their age. The difference is the applicability of it. There are steps the Government of God needs to take as far as effect is concerned. For instance. It could not deal with the institution of slavery until it dealt with idolatry and despotism first. Or, just like. We cannot have republican forms of representative government without the morality the Gospel brings to hearts. The wicked (as we see) figure out very quickly how to use democratic elections to manipulate their way into power. Once they are in power it becomes hard to dislodge them. One more prime example of this was in regards to the Roman Empires success in hindering the government of God for 1400 years. It could not be overcome without the ability to get the written Word of God into the hands of common men cheaply and efficiently. This of course happened with the invention of the printing press right at the same time the Roman Empire fell. (Just think of what the information age means to the future!) So first things first.

The way this article has been written is to use a allot of scriptures up front to explain a section of prophecy. For Revelation 20 the opposite will be done. The interpretation will be listed first and then there will be sections about each part using scripture to explain the interpretation. None of these interpretations offered are to be understood as events. The reader may believe that Revelation 20 are events, but help you understanding what this article is trying to say. None of the authors interpretations of any of these verses are portraying a past, present or future event. It's portraying these verses as illustrations of actualities. Pictorial representations of things that are and will continue to be.
1. Satan being bound illustrates his loss of influence and control over mankind.
2. The thousand years illustrates the eternal Government of God.
3. The judgment given to the saints and them reigning represents the growing influence the truth that came through them has on all of mankind.
4. The first resurrection illustrates eternal life found in Christ.
5. The second death and the rest of the dead not living until the thousand years are expired represents all those who do not belong to Christ.
6. The end of the thousand years and Satan being loosed represents nations and people who are under Satan's influence.
7. Gog and Magog illustrate the nations and peoples who seek to stop the growth of the Government of God, and their attempts to destroy it.
8. Fire coming down from heaven represents the defeat including militarily of those who seek to destroy Gods influence. The influenced include nations who are to varying degree's influenced by the Gospel.
9. The lake of fire represents the destruction of Satan's work in the earth.
10. The judgment is the judgment that is already written and that all of mankind is already subject to.
11. The dead illustrate the condition all of mankind.
11. The sea illustrates all nations.
12. The sea giving up it's dead illustrates the work of the Gospel saving souls in all nations.
13. Death and hell represent the power\influence Satan had over men to destine most of mankind to death and hell giving up it's "dead" to salvation through the Gospel.
14. Every man being judged according to his own works illustrates a new paradigm in God's dealing with the sins of mankind.
15. Death and hell being cast into the lake of fire illustrates the grace of God through the Gospel of Jesus Christ destiny altering work in the earth.
16. Those not found in the book of life are those who do not belong to Christ.


A Thousand Years?
Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


As far as this author knows at this time. There are not even a few verses that that use similar illustrations of "a thousand years" in any similar context. Nor is there any interpretation offered by the scripture. This basically leaves us dry as far as being able to conclusively decode exactly what a thousand years is representing. We just do not have a body of scripture that does this for us. If talking explicitly about the reign of the Messiah. "Forever" is the general term used in describing a time period concerning the Government of God. Daniel 7:14. And there was given him (the Messiah) an empire, and glory, and dominion, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his empire is an everlasting empire, which shall not pass away, and his dominion that which shall not be destroyed. 18. But the saints of the most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. 27. And the kingdom and empire, and the greatness of the dominion under the whole heaven, will be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all empires shall serve and obey him. It's probably pretty safe to say that the term forever includes earth + heaven. Meaning the planet will not continue on forever but since the messiah and his saints populate heaven when they leave earth his reign will continue forever. None of that really helps though. This means having to look at this in it's context to come up with a plausible explanation. It's easier to sometimes to look at what it can't mean first before what it might mean.
Looking at it as someone who considers themselves a "prophecy literalist" might. According to the chronology of this all evil and evil doers including the devil and his demons are imprisoned (or destroyed) forever. This occurs after a time period that in their case would be of a thousand years or so. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. ......14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Yet this is not plausible for a couple of reasons. According to them a new or renewed planet is then created. This new planet has as it's capitol a heavenly city. Yet as abundantly shown in the section of the New Jerusalem big time evil exists outside the gates of this city that's on the earth. Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and who ever loves and makes a lie. Also, the nations during this chronological time period of the New Jerusalem are "being healed." Revelation 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. The question would be, for instance. What do the nations need healed from in a new or renewed planet? There's allot of little scenarios like this that could be pointed out. However, what needs to be focused on is the abundance of evidence that was supplied in this article to show what the New Jerusalem illustrates. This author understands how difficult it may be for believers to immediately intellectually accept that evidence with its unavoidable implications. God's work does not necessarily begin in the intellect of mankind though, but in their spirits. What a persons spirit may accept due to the personal witness of God might not be accepted intellectually by that person at that time. In time, according to the personal work of God in their own hearts they will begin to intellectually develop according to what is in their spirits. That is the way of God who is a spirit with his children and mankind in general. That being said; given time. It will not be a light thing between you and God to brush aside the abundant evidence supplied by the scripture itself about the New Jerusalem. You may do so right now and not face any consequences due to the mercy and understanding of your heavenly father. In the future though, when God is working his work through your own spirit, that will be a different story. This may not be able to be said about everything in this article and it's not meant to imply that. The New Jerusalem though, along with some other things are so plainly interpreted by the scripture that it's on whole different level in comparison to lots of other Bible prophecy subjects.
The thousand years is an illustration of Gods eternal Government. It does not illustrate any type of a time period. This very simple interpretation is exactly what all the other prophecies say. That the prophesied Government of God makes it's appearance as a dominant force in the world after the fall of the Roman Empire. Satan is bound because he cannot find a place in peoples hearts as shown in the previous chapter. That in effect is the basis for the whole of the prophesied Government of God on earth. That man by the grace of God rejects the work of Satan thereby stopping him from controlling the world. Dethroning him so to speak from his status as "the god of this world." This of course as the prophecies in the scripture show is not an event but a process as great evil exists in the world during this era. It just does not control it nor do the wicked reign over all the saints as they had in the ancient world during the age of the gentiles.

 

[miamited]

This is not what Jesus taught. He said his kingdom is not of this world. It comes without observation. And only the born again can see it. You need to adjust Revelation which is symbolic to Jesus' words that are literal.

Hi dave,

I appreciate your position, but mine is that the 1,000 year reign is not referencing the same kingdom that Jesus was speaking of when he spoke of the kingdom of God. The 1,000 year reign is, by definition a limited time, the kingdom of God is eternal. According to the account of the 1,000 year reign in the Revelation of Jesus Christ, it will come to an end and at that time Satan will be loosed to once more sow sin for one last time before he is cast into the lake of fiery brimstone. So, the 1,000 year reign, as I understand the Scriptures, is referencing an entirely different time and place of existence than the 'kingdom of God'.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

When will God create a new heaven and earth. Would it be before the thousand years of after?

Hi PK,

The new heaven and the new earth come after the day of God's final judgment upon all mankind. That will come after the 1,000 year reign and after Satan has been loosed from his chains one last time to deceive the nations.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

The question is, does the new Jerusalem descend after the earth is recreated or before.

Throughout the Bible God's people, those who put their faith in him have been illustrated as the wife of God, or the bride of Christ. Did this all change in the last couple pages of the Bible? Where it says: Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, PREPARED AS A BRIDE ADORNED FOR HER HUSBAND.....9 And there came to me one of the seven angels...., and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.

It certainly did not change. Not only have the people of faith always been illustrated as the wife of God. But also, in that same Bible prophecy of the Old Testament, as a city called the New Jerusalem.
Isaiah 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
In fact every single verse in Revelation about the New Jerusalem comes from the OT's prophecy about an age where the earthly promises of God begin to be fulfilled in the lives of believers. That is, in nations they are influencing to meet certain basic conditions. So how is this confusion about what is being illustrated by a city coming about? Very simply; because so many Bible readers are ignorant of, or, not heeding the Bibles own interpretations of its own prophecy.

There are very clear lines of demarcation in the scripture about differing ages or eras. The old covenant age that began with Moses and ended in 70 AD had a very large body of end time prophecy dedicated to it. The new covenant age starts where the old ends and has no prophesied end. But then there is the age of the four gentile empires that began Nebuchadnezzar conquered Judea around 600 BC. It did not end until 1453 AD when what had been the capitol of the Roman empire since 333 AD, Constantinople, was conquered and the last Roman emperor killed. This was prophesied to be an age of horrible oppression, persecutions, slavery and genocide for true believers. A time period in which they were told they would not be able to overcome the despotic nature of the world. There are 11 chapters of the end time prophecy in Revelation about this time period of these four gentile empires.

Then there is the age of promise that was to follow the age of the four gentile empires. An age that has no prophesied end as it is encompassed in the NT age. In this age the influence of the invisible kingdom of God was to start a notable rise to dominance in the world. So influential that despotic human government begins to fall. Human slavery becomes illegal. Things like famine, short life spans, plagues, successful wars of conquest by the wicked. Things that were the norm for the ancient world become rare. Of course this does not just come of itself. This better world has to be won by Gods saints. By individual conversions, then cultural and political influence and even, yes, sometimes ending in war. Impossible without the Bible being in the hands of the general population. Which, stranger than fiction; began to happen for the first time in human history right after that fourth empire fell.

This is what seen in Bible prophecy about the New Jerusalem. A time period or age of great oppression and tribulation followed by an age where all the Bibles earthly promises made to hundreds of generations of saints finally start coming to pass in the world. Notice how in Hosea 2, the wife of God isn't prophesied to be taken to heaven but to be sown in the earth. To bring a harvest. 19 And I WILL BETROTH YOU TO ME for ever; yes, I WILL BETROTH YOU TO ME in righteousness, and in judgment, and in loving-kindness, and in mercies. 20 I WILL EVEN BETROTH YOU TO ME in faithfulness: and you shall know the LORD. 21 And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, says the Lord, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth; 22 And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. 23 AND I WILL SOW HER TO ME IN THE EARTH; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, You are my people; and they shall say, You are my God.

Not that believers won't go to heaven when they die. But they have a purpose on the earth to transform it. Here in Isaiah chapter 54 it says the same

54:1 Sing, O barren, you that did not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, you that did not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of THE MARRIED WIFE, said the Lord.

Paul quotes this in Galatians. The way he is interpreting it is that the Mosaic Law and the physical city of Jerusalem were the married wife that bore many children. The people of faith though, few and for most of the history of ancient Israel persecuted and murdered by the faithless; these are the children of the desolate woman. However with the coming of the messiah the children of the desolate woman, in this case the children of the Jerusalem from above, the New Jerusalem, as per Galatians, would bear more children than the earthly city would. The rest of the prophecy in Isaiah 54 will say more of this.

2 Enlarge the place of your tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of your habitations: spare not, lengthen your cords, and strengthen your stakes; 3 For you shall break forth on the right hand and on the left; and your descendants shall inherit the Nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

A truly amazing prophecy exhorting the faithful with the promise that lay ahead. That the people of faith soon to be of all nations will grow and expand. So much so that it will be said the descendant of Abraham, the Messiah, through them will inherit the nations. That the fruit of this will be prosperous civilizations. (The desolate cities will be inhabited.)

4 Fear not; for you shall not be ashamed: neither be you confounded; for you shall not be put to shame: for you shall forget the shame of your youth, and shall not remember the reproach of your widowhood any more. 5 FOR YOUR MAKER IS YOUR HUSBAND; the Lord of hosts is his name; and your Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; THE GOD OF THE WHOLE EARTH WILL HE BE CALLED....

This prophesies how God's wife will forget the oppression lived during the age of the gentiles and that all the pagan, pantheistic nations of their day would one day call the God of the Bible, the God of the whole earth.

11 O you afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay your stones with fair colors, and lay your foundations with sapphires. 12 And I will make your windows of agates, and your gates of carbuncles, and all your borders of pleasant stones. 13 And all your children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of your children. 14 In righteousness shall you be established: you shall be far from oppression; for you shall not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near you. 15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whoever shall gather together against you shall fall for your sake.

These verses are directly quoted in Revelation 21-22 about the New Jerusalem. Notice how it is not prophesying a utopia. Because the wicked do gather against them. It simply is pointing out that they will emerge victorious over their enemies in that age of promise to come. There was no way for this to happen unless the saints, able to read their own Bibles, are a primary influence in nations. It is how it has been coming to pass and is expanding in today's world.

But this is just the beginning of just three chapters of the dozens of the most radical good news for the world chapters about the New Jerusalem in the Bible. Which you will see if you follow the link. Chapters that contain most of the verses in Revelation and cannot be mistaken as speaking about a new physical planet. But rather one transformed by the Gospel, the Word in peoples hands, Gods providence, his invisible kingdom and its influence in the world. It is high time God's people start to throw off their false prophecy that came to them in the guise of end time prophecy teachings. False prophecy that has robbed them of a scriptural vision for the future. This good news prophecy MUST be embraced by faith as that scriptural vision for the future. If that is, we are to intelligently pray and labor with God like Jesus said to pray: Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth, like it is in heaven.
http://wordservice.org/Bible%20Prophecy/bp4000.htm

 

[_Dave_]

My answer to all of the questions is no. With the possible exception of #6, since there will be those born during the Millennium who will choose for Christ. I'm not savvy about the details, however, so I'm not pinning doctrine on it.

What I will hold to doctrine, though, is that there are many verses in Scripture, both Old and New Testament, saying that Jesus will reign from the Throne of David; which was an earthly throne.

After the 1,000-year earthly reign is complete and the New Heaven and the New Earth has been created Jesus will join His Father on their joint throne -- where He is right now BTW, awaiting the opening of the seals.

 

[Monk Brendan]

It's not a rejection of Rev 20 - it's merely a different interpretation than premillienials. This article may be a helpful outline for anyone wishing to understand that interpretation: Revelation Chapter 20: Introduction and Outline

I am an Amillennialist "because of" Revelation 20

Another belief about the millennium is that it took place from the throne of King David to the throne of Christ (Matthew 1:17 ~ So there were fourteen generations from Abraham to David, fourteen generations from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen generations from the exile to Babylon to the Christ.)

There is NO SUCH THING as an earthly millennium.

Remember that in the Psalter and ST. Peter, we are told that we should not interpret 1000 in an earthly created manner.
St. Augustine said we are living in the 1000 years between Christ's first and second comings. During this time Satan is bound: not rended inoperative, but limited in power.

For that matter, there is no such thing as a pre-trib rapture, either.

 

[miamited]

This is not what Jesus taught. He said his kingdom is not of this world. It comes without observation. And only the born again can see it. You need to adjust Revelation which is symbolic to Jesus' words that are literal.

Hi dave,

Well, I'm all for hearing you out on this. Here's the relevant part of the account of the 1,000 years given in the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

John writes that he saw an angel coming down out of heaven having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. Adjust that for me, please.

He then tells us that this angel seizes the dragon, who is the devil, and binds him for a thousand years. Adjust that for me.

He then tells us that this binding of Satan prevents him from deceiving the nations anymore...until the thousand years has ended. Adjust that for me.

He then tells us that all those who had not received the mark of the beast or its image and who were killed for the testimony of Jesus and the word of God, came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Adjust that for me, please. Have they come to life already? Have the rest of the dead come to life yet?

Yes, Jesus' kingdom is not of this world because the kingdom of Jesus at the time that he said these things was the kingdom of his Father in heaven. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit all reside, so far as their 'place' where they came from, with God. Jesus returned to his kingdom when he ascended back to the father. They are a trinity that work together in all the things of God and have come from God. However, the Revelation tells us that there will be a new existence where Jesus will reign upon the earth for 1,000 years. The reign and purpose of that 1,000 years will come to an end, at which time Satan will once more be released from his chains to again deceive the nations for a short time and all the rest of the dead will then be raised up to face God's day of final judgment upon mankind.

In fact, neither the angel that John writes about, nor John himself ever refers to this 1,000 year reign as any kind of kingdom. It will just be a time in which Jesus will reign, for a time, with those who have professed belief in him.

You are welcome to show me your adjustments in all of this. Just saying that I need to adjust my way of thinking because you somehow believe that the 'kingdom' that Jesus spoke, of when he was with us, is the same thing that is being referenced as the 1,000 year reign of Christ upon the earth; that they are one and the same, isn't going to cut it for me. Personally, I can clearly see that they are referencing two separate realities. That Jesus did step down from his kingdom where he shares authority with his Father and that kingdom is not of this world. That is the kingdom where he now resides sitting at the right hand of the Father. However, the 1,000 year reign is not that kingdom. The 1,000 year reign is merely a temporary time where Jesus will return from his kingdom in heaven and reside with his believers upon the earth for 1,000 years. That time will come to an end and then the other things that John writes to us about will begin and carry us on to the culmination of God's plan to the final judgment of all mankind.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[Gottservant]

This is going to be annoying (for you and me, I think), if I have to keep correcting it:

But the greek word in Revelation for 1000, is "at least 1000".

There is no way for the Devil to hold God to an exact "1000".

 

[DavidPT]

I have listed at least 6 things thusfar in the OP that can't occur during the thousand years. Even non Premils must apparently agree since I haven't noted any of them indicating some or all of those things can take place during the thousand years. But if the thousand years are now, and have been ongoing for the past 2000 years, and the fact saints have literally been persecuted and killed over the past 2000 years, why are no non Premils at least saying that can take place during the thousand years, meaning question #3 in the OP?


Now I would like to list some things that I feel do take place during the thousand years. Feel free to add to this since there will still be plenty more I neglected to list.

All of the following occur during the thousand years IMO.

1-----Revelation 2:26-27

2-----Zechariah 14:16-21

3----Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne

4----Matthew 19:28

5----Luke 22:30

6----Luke 19:15-19

7----Daniel 7:27

8----Isaiah 60:12

9----Isaiah 66:23-24

10---Isaiah 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison

 

[DavidPT]

This is going to be annoying (for you and me, I think), if I have to keep correcting it:

But the greek word in Revelation for 1000, is "at least 1000".

There is no way for the Devil to hold God to an exact "1000".

Can it or can it not also mean exactly 1000? If it can, there you go then, that means it can be meaning in the literal sense.

 

[DavidPT]

During this time Satan is bound: not rended inoperative, but limited in power.

But look at the way his binding is depicted though. It's not depicting someone merely limited in power while being bound. It's depicting someone shut up in a prison and totally cut off from the outside world altogether.

 

[Gottservant]

Can it can it not also mean exactly 1000? If it can, there you go then, that means it can be meaning in the literal sense.

Well that's right, if I say 3000 and it turns out to be 1000, I am in error; but if I say 1000 and it turns out to be 4000, I am in error but not greatly, there is at least 1000 in the 4000.

So when God says "at least 1000", He is saving us from the error of wondering what His timing is.

When someone says to you "the petrol station is five miles down this road", you don't say "and this is what I expect to see on the way: a police station, a firestation and a hospital - which one is it most?" and you don't say "and this is when I expect to see them: first, the hospital, second the firestation, third the police station: which one was ordered most correctly?"; you ask politely "what am I likely to see and if you have the time: what does what I am likely to see supposed to mean?".

Even if you set the alarm, there is no guarantee when you will wake up!

 

[DavidPT]

Well that's right, if I say 3000 and it turns out to be 1000, I am in error; but if I say 1000 and it turns out to be 4000, I am in error but not greatly, there is at least 1000 in the 4000.

So when God says "at least 1000", He is saving us from the error of wondering what His timing is.

When someone says to you "the petrol station is five miles down this road", you don't say "and this is what I expect to see on the way: a police station, a firestation and a hospital - which one is it most?" and you don't say "and this is when I expect to see them: first, the hospital, second the firestation, third the police station: which one was ordered most correctly?"; you ask politely "what am I likely to see and if you have the time: what does what I am likely to see supposed to mean?".

Even if you set the alarm, there is no guarantee when you will wake up!

I see where you are coming from, so let me ask this then. What is your source for it meaning at least a thousand? What or who is that according to?