Anathema to Sabbath-keepers - Council of Laodicea

[klutedavid]

I quoted brittanica, as in encyclopedia there of... oh I get it, you want me to only consider your sources. Last I checked Israel was part of the middle east.

I'm using your source.

 

[Yekcidmij]

You can find this information within seconds of a web search.

Ancient And Religious Calendar Systems

The Near East and the Middle East

The lunisolar calendar, in which months are lunar but years are solar—that is, are brought into line with the course of the Sun—was used in the early civilizations of the whole Middle East, except Egypt, and in Greece. The formula was probably invented in Mesopotamia in the 3rd millennium BCE. Study of cuneiform tablets found in this region facilitatestracing the development of time reckoning back to the 27th century BCE, near the invention of writing.

​

Isn't the discussion regarding this about Israel specifically? You should provide evidence of calendar usage in Israel specifically.

 

[Shimshon]

I'm using your source.

Like a kid uses a coat hanger and imagines he's a conductor of an orchestra.

Some major faux pas' you have going here. First, you are supposed to prove the response false. Instead you attack the validity of the source by posting what you believe is counter to my response. This only diminishes the veracity of your own claims. Meaning, why should we believe my quotes when they are 'unassumingly' in direct opposition to yours. And since they are both from the same source this means the source is itself in question.

Even if your point were true you taint your proof by using the very source that claims otherwise. But this is only the construct of your own bias. Your quotes do not actually prove my quotes wrong. In fact they verify it. Which leads me to the second point.

The link I posted claims the lunisolar calendar was used in the early civilizations of the whole Middle East, except Egypt and Greece. By your posting that the Jewish religious calendar was lunar in now way disqualifies the fact that the whole of the Middle east used a LUNIsolar calendar. Meaning, your are only proving the very point itself. "Ancient and Religious calendar systems of the Middle East"...

It doesn't say;

there was never a solar calendar in Israel.

It says that the religious calendar was lunar.

You sir still have to prove that Israel NEVER had a solar calendar. This is your claim and you're the one who has to provide the evidence. I'm not here to prove you wrong, you need to prove your claim is true. Instead of spouting how we need to do research on the lunar calendar. While displaying ignorance to the very source in question.

The source (brittania) claims otherwise. It claims the whole ME used a lunisolar calendar. And your rebuttal only proves them right. They claim Israel (within the whole ME) observed a luniSOLAR calendar. You say they never. Of course they observe a lunar. Prove brittania wrong and show how Israel 'never' had a solar calendar. Don't just prove they had a lunar one. Then claim victory.

Do my research on the Jewish lunar calendar? Do your research on the lunisolar calendar. I found this information in 15 seconds. And after spending 15 minutes on this topic you can search "Dead Sea Scrolls Solar Calendar" and find just what I am saying. Proof there was a solar calendar 'within' Israel alongside of a lunar one.

Newly Deciphered Dead Sea Scroll Reveals 364-Day Calendar
One issue that was contested among different ancient Jewish sects was which calendar to use. While members of the Jerusalem Temple and the Hasmonean dynasty used the lunar calendar, the Qumran community used a 364-day calendar, as exemplified by Scroll 4Q324d recently published by Ratson and Ben-Dov. The scholars elaborate on the difference between the lunar calendar and the Qumran calendar in a University of Haifa press release:

The lunar calendar, which Judaism follows to this day, requires a large number of human decisions. People must look at the stars and moon and report on their observations, and someone must be empowered to decide on the new month and the application of leap years. By contrast, the 364-day calendar was perfect. Because this number can be divided into four and seven, special occasions always fall on the same day. This avoids the need to decide, for example, what happens when a particular occasion falls on the Sabbath, as often happens in the lunar calendar. The Qumran calendar is unchanging, and it appears to have embodied the beliefs of the members of this community regarding perfection and holiness.

 

[anna ~ grace]

.

 

[Shimshon]

Isn't the discussion regarding this about Israel specifically? You should provide evidence of calendar usage in Israel specifically.

Israel resides within the whole of the Middle East right? (brittania) The Qumran community was part of the Jewish religious sects of Israel, yes? The 364 day calendar is a solar calendar, no? The dead sea scrolls identify the Qumran community also used a 364 day calendar, no? (biblical archeology society)

 

[Shimshon]

Something that I have noticed.... the deeper into Moses a soul gets, the further from Christ he gets, though he does not realize it.

How sad. To claim that the closer one gets to Israel/Judaism the farther one gets from our own Messiah. You do realize you're saying the closer you get to Moses, Israel, and the Jewish way of living the further you get from the Holy One of Israel? Don't you realize the heart God has for Israel? Have you not read? Has the Spirit not impressed upon you the love and desire for Israel to be restored?

If you know that God loved you so much that he sent his only begotten son to die in your place to removed all your sins. Can you not find it in your heart to let God do this for his first born? Those born from the seed of Abraham? And if God found such mercy to reach you where you were at, not shaming you into first changing who you where, why wouldn't you offer the same spirit of mercy to Israel?

If God's heart is for good and blessings, why would you speak evil of the ones he loves first an foremost? And didn't Paul teach against doing this very thing? Do you imagine Paul saying what you said? Would you claim Paul just didn't realize how far he had fallen from Messiah when he proclaimed the holiness of the law and the irrevocable calling upon the Jewish people in regards to it?

Yet you would have us forsake our fathers and our heritage so we might embrace your Christ? sigh...since 49ad...Rome...

 

[anna ~ grace]

How sad. To claim that the closer one gets to Israel/Judaism the farther one gets from our own Messiah. You do realize you're saying the closer you get to Moses, Israel, and the Jewish way of living the further you get from the Holy One of Israel? Don't you realize the heart God has for Israel? Have you not read? Has the Spirit not impressed upon you the love and desire for Israel to be restored?

If you know that God loved you so much that he sent his only begotten son to die in your place to removed all your sins. Can you not find it in your heart to let God do this for his first born? Those born from the seed of Abraham? And if God found such mercy to reach you where you were at, not shaming you into first changing who you where, why wouldn't you offer the same spirit of mercy to Israel?

If God's heart is for good and blessings, why would you speak evil of the ones he loves first an foremost? And didn't Paul teach against doing this very thing? Do you imagine Paul saying what you said? Would you claim Paul just didn't realize how far he had fallen from Messiah when he proclaimed the holiness of the law and the irrevocable calling upon the Jewish people in regards to it?

Yet you would have us forsake our fathers and our heritage so we might embrace your Christ? sigh...since 49ad...Rome...

Hey, Shimshon, I shouldn't have debated. I'm sorry. God be with you.

 

[Shimshon]

God does love the Jewish people, Shimshon.

But the dangers of getting deeply into Mosaic Law is something that Saint Paul touched on, too.

So your point is similar to klute's? To focus on a section of the whole so as to diminish a portion? Messianic Judaism exists to build up and speak life to Israel. We see plainly the age old promise in the scriptures regarding our restoration. And the closer our cleansing gets the closer the church's approaches too. The closer our restoration comes the closer the closing of the time of the gentiles and a refocus back on Israel will and is happening. The nations are supposed to be bringing us back to the land as first fruits of a huge harvest. But the church has usurped the identity of Israel and her blessing while heaping the remaining curses all upon Israel.

So you see, sadly, just like Israel fell and stumbled, so too has the church (the nations). And just like God disciplined Israel so too will the nations experience his discipline. Not only for forsaking the Holy One of Israel, but through forsaking the first born of his seed. In his name even.

In the effort to hijack the blessings of Israel the church will find itself saddled with the very curses it leveled upon us. And so it will be scattered in order to bare more fruit for God. How else can the nations bring back the children of God as promised? Isaiah 66:20

We are supposed to be here to help each other, not tear each other down. We both have the mark of cain upon our heads. And one side has forgotten the command to not attack the other. While using people lost in their sins as an excuse to forsake us believing Jews. I hope you can see how disparaging it is to have a 'christian' tell a Jew that the deeper he gets into Moses the further he gets from the one Moses prophesied about. How is this a form of evangelizing? It's what kept me out of the church as a Jewish believer, my entire life. I've been a Jewish believer since 21, and i'm almost half way through my 50's. The Spirit of God has never led me into a church other than to learn the pitfalls. Namely the church's addiction for replacement theology. So sadly, we have quite the opposite perspective.

Isaiah 66
It is a declaration of Adonai. 18 “For I know their(Israel) works and their thoughts. It will come about that I will gather all nations and tongues, and they will come and see My glory (Yeshua). 19 Then I will set up a sign among them, and I will send survivors from them to the nations, to Tarshish, Pul and Lud (who pull the bow), to Tubal and Javan, to distant islands that have not heard My fame or seen My glory. Then they will declare My glory among the nations. Mark 16:15

20 “Then they will bring all your kinsmen from all the nations, as an offering to Adonai, on horses and in chariots, and on litters, mules and camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem,” says Adonai, “just as Bnei-Yisrael bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the House of Adonai. 21 I will also take some of them as priests and for Levites,” says Adonai.

22 “For just as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, will endure before Me”—it is a declaration of Adonai—“so your descendants and your name will endure.”

23 “And it will come to pass,
that from one New Moon to another,
and from one Shabbat to another,
all flesh will come to bow down before Me,”
says Adonai.​

Ezekiel 37
28 Then the nations will know that I am Adonai who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever.’”

There is a revival coming, and a shaking. It involves Israel, and the second coming of 'our' Messiah. Everything that is not founded on the word of God will crumble. You who relish in the discipline of Israel will yourself be disciplined accordingly. God is never mocked. Luke 12:47 You who long to serve Messiah as he restores not only Israel but the world will partake of his kingdom. Or have we not learned the lesson of forgiveness. Matthew 18:33-35

 

[klutedavid]

Like a kid uses a coat hanger and imagines he's a conductor of an orchestra.

Some major faux pas' you have going here. First, you are supposed to prove the response false. Instead you attack the validity of the source by posting what you believe is counter to my response. This only diminishes the veracity of your own claims. Meaning, why should we believe my quotes when they are 'unassumingly' in direct opposition to yours. And since they are both from the same source this means the source is itself in question.

Even if your point were true you taint your proof by using the very source that claims otherwise. But this is only the construct of your own bias. Your quotes do not actually prove my quotes wrong. In fact they verify it. Which leads me to the second point.

The link I posted claims the lunisolar calendar was used in the early civilizations of the whole Middle East, except Egypt and Greece. By your posting that the Jewish religious calendar was lunar in now way disqualifies the fact that the whole of the Middle east used a LUNIsolar calendar. Meaning, your are only proving the very point itself. "Ancient and Religious calendar systems of the Middle East"...

It doesn't say;
It says that the religious calendar was lunar.

You sir still have to prove that Israel NEVER had a solar calendar. This is your claim and you're the one who has to provide the evidence. I'm not here to prove you wrong, you need to prove your claim is true. Instead of spouting how we need to do research on the lunar calendar. While displaying ignorance to the very source in question.

The source (brittania) claims otherwise. It claims the whole ME used a lunisolar calendar. And your rebuttal only proves them right. They claim Israel (within the whole ME) observed a luniSOLAR calendar. You say they never. Of course they observe a lunar. Prove brittania wrong and show how Israel 'never' had a solar calendar. Don't just prove they had a lunar one. Then claim victory.

Do my research on the Jewish lunar calendar? Do your research on the lunisolar calendar. I found this information in 15 seconds. And after spending 15 minutes on this topic you can search "Dead Sea Scrolls Solar Calendar" and find just what I am saying. Proof there was a solar calendar 'within' Israel alongside of a lunar one.

Regardless of the sources we know that at a minimum the months were calculated from a lunar perspective. This is true using a lunar calendar or even a lunisolar calendar.

The Jewish calendar.
The calendar in Jewish history.
The calendar term here is yereaḥ, which in Hebrew denotes both “moon” and “month.” The second Hebrew term for month, ḥodesh, properly means the “newness” of the lunar crescent. Thus, the Hebrew months were lunar.
(www.britannica.com/science/calendar/The-early-Roman-calendar)

A lunar month begins with the sighting of the new moon. The lunar month is the same in both the lunar calendar and the lunisolar calendar.

Your quotation from Britannica enforces the earlier claim.

The Sabbath day was reckoned from the perspective of a lunar month and not from a solar month.

 

[Shimshon]

The Sabbath day was reckoned from the perspective of a lunar month and not from a solar month.

For some authorities yes, and I never argued that. But for other priests (Qumran) they followed the solar calendar, according to the evidence found within the dead sea scrolls.

You first claimed Israel never did such a thing. Are you willing to accept that certain communities within Israel functioned a solar calendar as well? Confirming brittanica's quote that the solar calendar existed throughout the whole of the ME. Or will you continue to prop up this strawman as a distraction for your false claim?

 

[klutedavid]

For some authorities yes, and I never argued that. But for other priests (Qumran) they followed the solar calendar, according to the evidence found within the dead sea scrolls.

You first claimed Israel never did such a thing. Are you willing to accept that certain communities within Israel functioned a solar calendar as well? Confirming brittanica's quote that the solar calendar existed throughout the whole of the ME. Or will you continue to prop up this strawman as a distraction for your false claim?

You seem confused about the information in the previous quotations.

The quote from Britannica did not say the ancient Middle East used a solar calendar.

Are you willing to accept that certain communities within Israel functioned a solar calendar as well

The quotation from Britannica said the following.

The lunisolar calendar, in which months are lunar but years are solar—that is, are brought into line with the course of the Sun—was used in the early civilizations of the whole Middle East.

A lunisolar calendar is not a solar calendar.

The Qumran community was very late in history and really has nothing to do with the fact. That Israel in Exodus had been using a lunar calendar.

Whether it be a lunar calendar or a lunisolar calendar makes no difference, in that the months in both these calendars are lunar months. We note and this is important. Our calendar the Gregorian is a solar calendar which means our months are not lunar months.

Lunar months are reckoned from the new moon.

Why do you persist in altering the fact; that Israel relied on a lunar calendar?

 

[Shimshon]

Why do you persist in altering the fact; that Israel relied on a lunar

Thank you for proving to me that you are completely dishonest. Good day.

 

[klutedavid]

Thank you for proving to me that you are completely dishonest. Good day.

I do not understand why you called me dishonest?

Your debate is with the facts of history, i.e., Israel and the lunar calendar.

Have you been following the papal solar calendar and observing the wrong Sabbath day?

 

[klutedavid]

Thank you for proving to me that you are completely dishonest. Good day.

When did the month start in ancient Israel?

Rosh Chodesh or Rosh Hodesh (Hebrew: ראש חודש; trans. Beginning of the Month; lit. Head of the Month) is the name for the first day of every month in the Hebrew calendar, marked by the birth of a new moon. (wikipedia.Rosh Chodesh)

Israel used a lunar month and not a solar month.

The Sabbath was never a solar Saturday (Saturn day).

The ancient Sabbath was reckoned from the new moon, that first lunar day of the month was called Rosh Chodesh.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The word 'circumcision' is a general term describing the Jews, care to look at the verses below which proves this usage.

Ephesians 2:11
Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” (Jews) which is performed in the flesh by human hands.

Colossians 4:11
And also Jesus who is called Justus; these are the only fellow workers for the kingdom of God who are from the circumcision (the Jews).

Romans 15:8-9
For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision (Jews) on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises given to the fathers, and for the Gentiles to glorify God for His mercy; as it is written.

And? That still has nothing to do with you ADDING (the Law) to the scripture...why DID you add it?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The calculation of the beginning of a Jewish month and the days counted from the first day of the lunar month.

Not special festivals (Moedim).

What I am talking about is the fact that Israel in the Old Testament, calculated the Sabbath days after the observance of the new moon. Israel used a lunar calendar not a solar calendar which is the calendar that Rome used.

The moon was created on the 4th day while Shabbat was on the 7th day...

 

[Dig4truth]

Ex 20:9-11 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

From what I gather the Sabbath was about the number of days and not about the moon. It began at the creation week and will continue through the millennial reign of Messiah. The Feasts were based on the lunar calendar and that is why some of the Feast Sabbaths can be on different days of the month.



Also, when Rabbi Sha’ul (Paul) spoke about “circumcision” and “non-circumcision” as in Galatians 6:15 he was more than likely speaking about Jew and Gentile.

Paul never taught against the Torah (Law) except as a way TO salvation. He always upheld the Torah as a way in which the follower of Yeshua should live.

I like to say that the Torah is not a way TO life but a way OF life. Yeshua is the way TO life and He gave us the example of how to walk this life out.