Struggle with Marian Apparitions

Markie Boy

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So I struggle with some of the Marian apparitions. I find some really knowledgeable people that do so as well. Some of the messages seem OK, some a little unlike the Mary we know from Scripture.

I am at this point where I have seen enough Catholics that have all kinds of Marian devotions, but don't know Scripture or early Christian history from the first 150-200 years, that's it is sort of a turn off for me.

I see these later developed devotions as something to not dwell on much if you haven't really spent most of your time on the original deposit of faith.

Anyone else feel like this?

The other thing is some of the apparitions only need be approved by a single local bishop. I find that troubling, as I don't currently trust my bishop. It just doesn't seem like enough.
 

Davidnic

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There are levels of approval. I am fine with apparitions and I am devoted to a few. But they are private revelation, you do not need to accept them. Some like Lourdes have fruit that is undeniable.
 
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Markie Boy

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I guess when the message is call to conversion, prayer, and stopping sin, which most of them are, I can't see Satan working an angle of deception into that.

But, I'm sort of in a "don't trust the Church much" state, so I don't know.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I guess when the message is call to conversion, prayer, and stopping sin, which most of them are, I can't see Satan working an angle of deception into that.

But, I'm sort of in a "don't trust the Church much" state, so I don't know.
Your state of mind, and my state of mind somewhat similar, should be approached with caution. My state of mind, I have learned, is fickle. It goes from depressed to confused to mildly optimistic and back almost randomly. I'm sometimes stuck in a downward spiral until I hit bottom. If I decided things based on my state of mind I would have long ago done some terrible things, some very destabilizing things.
 
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Markie Boy

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Your state of mind, and my state of mind somewhat similar, should be approached with caution. My state of mind, I have learned, is fickle. It goes from depressed to confused to mildly optimistic and back almost randomly. I'm sometimes stuck in a downward spiral until I hit bottom. If I decided things based on my state of mind I would have long ago done some terrible things, some very destabilizing things.

Yes - sounds pretty similar Chevy - really similar. I go from frustrated, to unsure, to optimistic as well.

My real quest has been "What is the Church?". It's not simply the Roman Catholic institution - as we see so many in charge that don't seem to actually believe Jesus.

But can you find the true Church within the RCC - I believe so.
 
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chevyontheriver

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My real quest has been "What is the Church?". It's not simply the Roman Catholic institution - as we see so many in charge that don't seem to actually believe Jesus.
Was it the original twelve apostles? Considering Judas? Of course we could say that it wasn't really the Church until after Pentecost. But my point is that scoundrels and unbelievers have always been around. How can the Church be the Church with bad members, with bad leaders even? And yet somehow it is. There are nasty bad Orthodox, nasty bad Catholics, and neither Orthodoxy nor Catholicism is invalidated by them. Damaged by them but not invalidated
But can you find the true Church within the RCC - I believe so.
The doctrinal statement is that the whole Church subsists in the Catholic Church, although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. For example, there is valid baptism among the Orthodox and even most Protestants.

So not everything or everyone within the Catholic Church is part of the Church. And the Church is not just Catholics. There is overlap. The overlap is what allows us to call Protestants brothers and sisters in Christ and allows us to defrock and even excommunicate the defilers of innocent young people.

I have found the true Church within the Catholic Church. Which is why I do not want to and will not surrender it to the wreckers of the faith. The pearl of great price has been found.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Chevy - you'll get no argument from me on anything you said. All well put.

I wish I had someone like you to fellowship with locally!
Since we don't know how far apart we actually are, it's possible we live across the street and down the block from each other. Who knows. Anonymity is important on-line but it has it's downsides.

On a tangential note I just finished watching Damian Thompson being interviewed by Raymond Arroyo on EWTN's 'World Over'. WOW. I will have to watch it again.
 
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Markie Boy

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Since we don't know how far apart we actually are, it's possible we live across the street and down the block from each other. Who knows. Anonymity is important on-line but it has it's downsides.

On a tangential note I just finished watching Damian Thompson being interviewed by Raymond Arroyo on EWTN's 'World Over'. WOW. I will have to watch it again.

What's it on? I may need to check it out.
 
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chevyontheriver

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What's it on? I may need to check it out.
About the almost successful forced abortion of that woman in England and the milkquetoast reply from the bishops there, about the Amazon Synod working document and what cardinal Brandmuller said about it. Amazingly dry incredibly sage comments.
 
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Bob Crowley

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I don't have much trouble with the concept of Marian apparitions, for the simple reason I've had a number of spiritual experiences of my own viz. my father appeared in my room the night he died (despite not knowing where I lived).

He apologised for a lifetime of deliberate cruelty in which he destroyed my self confidence and damaged my mind, we talked and argued, and at the end he gave this terrifying scream and disappeared.

There have been others as well, although that one was unique.

I'm Catholic now, but my old Protestant (Presbyterian) pastor once said to me about Marian apparitions "There's been a lot of them... They (approved apparitions) line up with Scripture...I think they're a judgment on a divided church...".

I've had a handful of visions of the pastor too since he died. He turns up, says something which is quite relevant, and then just disappears again.

So I don't have a problem.

Then there's the miracles which accompany them. In the case of Fatima for example, there were three distinct miracles. The first was the "dancing sun" although it should be more accurately called "the terrifying sun". The 70,000 witnesses thought they were going to die at times, burned up by a sun which appeared to be heading straight for them. At least one hectoring atheist was bought to his knees in abject terror.

There was the fact that 70,000 people stared at the sun for about ten minutes straight, and it didn't even hurt their eyes. Usually you can't stare directly at the sun for more than about ten seconds without risking eye damage. I drive for a living, and I know how strained my eyes get if I don't wear sun glasses. Those people were protected.

Then there was the business of hours of rain saturating the ground and the witnesses's drenched and mud spattered clothing. Suddenly in an instant, the ground and their clothes were dry, and their clothes were clean. It seems scientists calculated the amount of energy required to vaporise that amount of water was about the same as a ten megaton nuclear weapon.

But they never even felt it. Just suddenly realised everything was dry and clean.

God was looking after His witnesses, having sent His Mother to three semi-literate children in a poor Catholic country, one of Europe's backwaters at the time. Two of them died within a couple of years, leaving only one remaining witness. Yet somehow, despite this unpromising start, like Christ being crucified as a criminal in an occupied country with no official written record, the message got out, and stuck, like His words which He said "will never die away".

And as the old pastor said, Fatima lined up with Scripture -

Matthew 11:25 NIV At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

What were the wise and learned doing? In 1917 they were in charge of a war which was killing young men by the million. And one of Mary's warnings was that if men didn't change, there would be another worse war, and we all know what happened then.

You could even extend her warning to today.

So on account of my own spiritual experiences, the fact these approved apparitions line up with Scripture, and they're backed up by miracles, I don't have a problem with approved Marian apparitions.
 
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