John Calvin - Heresy and capital punishment of Church History

I'm_Sorry

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I've been listening to Jacob Prasch and he has some very harsh words towards church history.

E.g.


What was going on?

How did this all happened?

Its quite disturbing, especially some of the methods used to torcher and kill heretics by the inquisitions.
 

Greg Logan

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I've been listening to Jacob Prasch and he has some very harsh words towards church history.

E.g.


What was going on?

How did this all happened?

Its quite disturbing, especially some of the methods used to torcher and kill heretics by the inquisitions.

That is a mild understatement. The level of anti-Christ evil of John Calvin is nearly unsurpassed - something akin to a demonized soul... Why so many people buy into this individual beats me - intelligence and religiousness are IRRELEVANT. Jesus CLEARLY did not advocate this kind of behavior - nor Paul...
 
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Tolworth John

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Its quite disturbing, especially some of the methods used to torcher and kill heretics by the inquisitions
For a start the inquisition was a catholic means of enforcing orthodxcy not a calvinistic insitution.


The level of anti-Christ evil of John Calvin is nearly unsurpassed

Calvin attempted to form a Christian state, but please note he was called and appointed there by the town council and it was the council that passed the laws appointing the group of lay people and ministers who ruled on church issues.

While we would not approve of the methods used Calvin worked to create a Christian state.
 
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Greg Logan

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For a start the inquisition was a catholic means of enforcing orthodxcy not a calvinistic insitution.

Calvin attempted to form a Christian state, but please note he was called and appointed there by the town council and it was the council that passed the laws appointing the group of lay people and ministers who ruled on church issues.

While we would not approve of the methods used Calvin worked to create a Christian state.

Calvin was the spiritual and cultural leader of this town - they were operating out of his heart/mind and morality. He could have called them into a place of Christ - but instead he called them to a place of darkness, violence, murder of a sort that makes ISIS look like child's play.

Calvin was an evil, wicked anti-Christ - who simply happened to be a religious and academic man who was thoroughly imbibed in the world - the culture of his day - never having met Christ - nor the working of the Spirit - as evidenced by his fruit.

Please note the so called "reformers" simply copied all the methods they learned from their mother - the Romish harlot.

That is the real history - we are called to speak truth and NOT white-wash.
 
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Tolworth John

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darkness, violence, murder of a sort that makes ISIS look like child's play.
Strange how willingly people are to blacken a Godly man by associating him with todays monsters.

The reformation in europe owes its sucess to Calvins work, without his teaching the CoE in England would not have gone as far as it did, ditto Scotland, France and parts of Germany.
 
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Greg Logan

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Strange how willingly people are to blacken a Godly man by associating him with todays monsters.

The reformation in europe owes its sucess to Calvins work, without his teaching the CoE in England would not have gone as far as it did, ditto Scotland, France and parts of Germany.

And you are characterizing the very issue - "because he had some "good" IDEAS....who cares about his behavior or character". This is exactly the OPPOSITE of the gospel. Your conception represents the very reason we have an inveterate liar, a arrogant boaster, a criminal gloating over his manipulation and abuse of women destroying our great country.

There was nothing godly about Calvin - he was and is a brutal and heinous murderer filled with a spirit of oppression and violence as any child can understand by simply reading the history.

Your conception is why people laugh at the hypocrisy of the church of God in Christ - even the world can see its grotesque immorality and licentious behavior.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Calvin was the spiritual and cultural leader of this town - they were operating out of his heart/mind and morality. He could have called them into a place of Christ - but instead he called them to a place of darkness, violence, murder of a sort that makes ISIS look like child's play.

Calvin was an evil, wicked anti-Christ - who simply happened to be a religious and academic man who was thoroughly imbibed in the world - the culture of his day - never having met Christ - nor the working of the Spirit - as evidenced by his fruit.

Please note the so called "reformers" simply copied all the methods they learned from their mother - the Romish harlot.

That is the real history - we are called to speak truth and NOT white-wash.
Your judgement is very harsh. "Romish harlot", indeed. The very same is what Christ instituted in Matthew 16:18...
 
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crixus

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Being one who believes that God gives us free will, I'm not a big fan of Calvin. To be honest I think he was on a major ego trip and thought he was better than everyone else if they didn't agree with him. :sick:
 
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Tolworth John

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Read Scaff's Church History.... the data is all there.
Fortunetly it is available on line and I've looked at the section on Calvin.
I have to thank you for pointing it out to me. The information there has greatly increased my admiration for that Godly man.
However I did not find anything there that matched the charges you made against him.
 
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philadelphos

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Fortunetly it is available on line and I've looked at the section on Calvin.
I have to thank you for pointing it out to me. The information there has greatly increased my admiration for that Godly man.
However I did not find anything there that matched the charges you made against him.

"As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him." (Pro. 26:11-12)

This is Calvinism... Hanging tortured anabaptists in cages...

Cages of Munster's Lambertikirche, where the Anabaptists were tortured and hung.jpg

Cages of Munster's Lambertikirche (same as Switzerland), where the Anabaptists were tortured and hung

If you had truly read Schaff, and what Calvin did, you would know that Calvinism has a sadistic godless side that promotes the punishment, fining, imprisonment, and execution, of every person in world the world today...

Crimes include:
  • Dancing
  • Gambling
  • Drunkenness
  • Visiting a tavern
  • Profane language
  • Luxury
  • Excess
  • Extravagence
  • Immodesty in dress
  • Playing licentious or irreligious music
  • Eating too many meals
  • Reading bad books
  • Watching plays
  • Having or giving the name of Roman Catholic Saint... including names like, Lawrence, Simeon, Henry, Stephen, Emma, Abraham, Arnold, Nicola, Michael, John, Mary, Peter, William, Catherine, Joan, James, Francis, Thomas, Louis, Charles, Greg, Anna... Instead you had to named "Abraham*, Moses, David, Daniel, Zechariah, Jeremiah, Nehemiah" etc
  • Heresy
  • Idolatry
  • Blasphemy
  • Adultery
  • Irreligion
  • Immorality
  • Hypocrisy
  • Infidelity
  • Missing a gathering at public worship
  • Missing a sermon
  • Laughing during a sermon
  • 'Witchcraft'
  • Sedition
  • Atheism
(* Self-contradictory: Abraham of Rostov, 1073)

"The death penalty against heresy, idolatry, and blasphemy, and the barbarous custom of the torture were retained. Adultery, after a second offence, was likewise punished by death... prohibitive and protective laws intended to prevent and punish irreligion and immorality."

As @GregLogan said, it's all detailed by Phllip Schaff, in History of the Christian Church, Chapter 8, Constitution and Discipline of the Church of Geneva, HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH*

Except Scripture says:
  • "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." (Gen. 9:6)
  • "Thou shalt not kill." (Exo. 20:13; Deu. 5:17)
  • "He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death." (Exo. 21:12)
  • "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death." (Lev. 24:17)
  • "And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death." (Num. 35:16)*
  • "But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die." (Exo. 21:14)
  • "Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." (Mt. 26:52)*
  • "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword." (Rev. 13:10)
* In fact, while the Council of Geneva liked to burn people at the stake, Calvin instead preferred to execute them by the sword. This is what he wanted to do to Michael Servetus. i.e. Calvin was certainly like Peter with the same violent streak.

Calvin's Calvinism was indeed a police state:

"When a refugee from Lyons once gratefully exclaimed, "How glorious is the liberty we enjoy here," a woman bitterly replied: "Free indeed we formerly were to attend mass, but now we are compelled to hear a sermon." Watchmen were appointed to see that people went to church. The members of the Consistory visited every house once a year to examine into the faith and morals of the family. Every unseemly word and act on the street was reported, and the offenders were cited before the Consistory to be either censured and warned, or to be handed over to the Council for severer punishment. No respect was paid to person, rank, or sex." (Schaff, s.107, The Exercise of Discipline in Geneva)

"(Michael) Servetus was burnt for heresy and blasphemy. The last is the most flagrant case which, more than all others combined, has exposed the name of Calvin to abuse and execration; but it should be remembered that he wished to substitute the milder punishment of the sword for the stake, and in this point at least he was in advance of the public opinion and usual practice of his age." (Schaff, s.107, The Exercise of Discipline in Geneva)

Remembering that Servetus fled Catholics in France to seek asylum and refuge in Geneva... and this happened...

Michel Servetus execution (burnt at stake).png


Life in Calvin's Geneva was perhaps worse than being in Count Dracula's castle with Vlad the Impaler.

Calvin was a murderer...

He wrote to his friend Farel, boasting of his intention to murder Servetus:

"Servetus wrote to me me lately, and beside his letter sent me a great volume full of his ravings, maintaining with incredible presumption in the letter that I shall there find things stupendous and unheard of till now. he declares himself ready to come hither if I wish him to; but I shall not pledge my faith to him; for if he did come here, I would see to it, in so far as I have authority in this city, that he should not leave it alive." (Stefan Zweig, The Right to Heresy: Castellio against Calvin, 1936; you can read an extract here Chapter 4: THE RIGHT TO HERESY or How JOHN CALVIN Killed A Conscience)

The Lord warned, "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." ( 1 Jn 3:15)
 
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Radagast

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Calvin attempted to form a Christian state

Not really. It was the city council that did so; they simply hired Calvin as their preacher.

but please note he was called and appointed there by the town council

Correct.

And enforcement of laws was a matter for the magistrates. Calvin was not a magistrate.
 
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Radagast

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Remembering that Servetus fled Catholics in France to seek asylum and refuge in Geneva... and this happened...

Servetus certainly fled France, but his visit to Geneva was a detour on his journey away from France.
 
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hedrick

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Calvin was neither a saint nor a demon. He did his best, at the request of the council, to make Geneva a Christian city. This was not a time in history where freedom of religion existed anywhere. Cities and countries considered heresy to be an attack on the state, because they saw the state as one arm of God's rule (the other being the church). Calvin was not particularly bloody. He is most associated with Servetus. But every city in Switzerland agreed with his death, and of course the Catholic inquisition would have done it as well. More common was his disagreement with what were called "libertines," people who didn't appreciate his enforcement of fairly rigid Christian morals. He had them punished, sometimes in humiliating ways. He was taking seriously principles of governance that everyone agreed on, but not all areas actually enforced.

It's unfair to blame him for what all Christians agreed was proper. You can certainly ask how some of that could have ever become established as Christian, but that's not a question for Calvin specifically.
 
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philadelphos

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Calvin executed principles of governance that everyone agreed on.... what all Christians agreed was proper.

That would be argumentum ad popopulum... a.k.a, appeal to the masses, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, or bandwagon fallacy...

Intelligite's explanation:

Jordan Mackenzie's explanation:

Hence, 'Let God be true and every man a liar'.

Scripture could not be clearer,
  • "Thou shalt not kill" (Ex. 20:13)
  • "Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evilmen." (Pro. 4:4)
  • "Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful." (Ps. 1:1)
  • "To do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God" (Mic. 6:8)
  • "Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy." (Mt. 5:7)
Make no mistake, Servetus and anabaptists are wrong, but Calvinists take the cake...

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." ( 1 Jn 3:15)

Maybe you think you will never fall victim to history... that you will never be on the losing side... or maybe you're a perpetrator of like feather, and it would seem that way... If so, I would suggest you repent.

Believers follow the Lord, not men, and the Lord is just:

"Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein: and he that rolleth a stone, it will return upon him." (Pro. 26:27)
 
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Radagast

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Calvin executed principles of governance that everyone agreed on.... what all Christians agreed was proper.

You're misquoting @hedrick, who actually said:

He was taking seriously principles of governance that everyone agreed on, but not all areas actually enforced.
It's unfair to blame him for what all Christians agreed was proper.

And it's important to realise that Calvin was not in charge at Geneva; he was merely employed as a preacher. He didn't "execute" anyone.
 
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Kate30

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It’s was never John Calvin’s intention to stay at Geneva he was just passing through at the time being a wanted man back in his homeland France. But when recognised in Geneva he was made a permanent guest for awhile which he wasn’t so happy about . Actually he was much relieved when he was finally allowed to leave, especially with the influence of the libertine movement apon Geneva at the time. He was much grateful to be gone from such a wretched place. But not long after he was asked to return again due to the increased lawlessness of the libertines that threatened to overthrow the Christian way of life and stability of all Geneva and Switzerland. So that was the situation in Geneva at the time Actually Calvin was a great believer of separation between church and state by the way. As to Severtus. Anyone who was branded a heretic was under the threat of penalty by death including Calvin himself. That’s how it was with nearly all officially sanctioned religions of that time. If it was Calvin’s intention to murder Severtus he could have invited him to Geneva. Calvin had quite a corespondence with the man. He never did invite him by the way and stopped all corespondence via letters to him eventually when it became clear that he treated Calvin with contempt. He came at his own accord to Geneva and did cause much trouble. And that was up to the civil authorities to decide whether Severtus lived or died.
 
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