I would start with what it is like in God's court. a thousand years here is a day there. If transported in vision to His courts, time is no longer relative to earth while there. Given the multi-dimensional aspect of God's ability to not only convey a message via word, but thoughts, and vision, it is like a movie played before you in 3D. where time is only a point, a moment of an event, so that you can understand the development.There is MUCH disagreement on what God was intending us to learn from these two chapters that are the context of the first seals. Do they show timing? Few believe they do. Did John see the real throne room of 95 AD - or a vision of the throne room. Can we tell? If a vision, what is the TIME inside the vision? Can we tell?
If people miss the intent of the Author here, it is almost guaranteed they will miss it on the seals.
I wonder; if any of the writers or readers here were asked to show how they would have written these two chapters when given God's parameters, how they would have written it.
You see, God wanted to introduce John to the book sealed with 7 seals. After all - the book is a major part of this entire book of Revelation and is what will eventually get Satan kicked down as the god or prince of this world and give this world back to Jesus Christ, the rightful owner.
It was tricky: God chose to start the story while the book was still in the right hand of the Father, before Jesus died and rose from the dead; we don't know but perhaps before Jesus descended to take on flesh. Perhaps it has been in the Father's hand since Adam's fall. HOW could God cause John to write things 60 some years into his past and have people recognize it as history in a book of prophecy? How well did God accomplish this?
If YOU were to write something in a book of the future, but you had to write of an event 60 years in the past, how would you do it? I would guess you would have to draw attention to some event that all knew was history, not future.
He ate a DIFFERENT book.John ate the scroll - so he could prophesy again - there was more to tell.
This is why we have chapters 16-22.
seal not the sayings - like the visions-
John did seal earlier - visions - as he made the mystery of God section - which ended with the sounding of the 7th trumpet.
Who said I could not see things like the seals? I am only saying that chapters 4 & 5 set the CONTEXT for the seals - hence their timing. It was written for God's people, Jew and Gentile alike.It was written for whom it was written.
If you cannot see things like seals because God does not show them to you, then it's just stabbing in the dark for the bullseye.
I could not disagree more! Revelation is in perfect chronological order, as much as is possible to write. In other words, events of a given chapter will take place AFTER the events of previous chapters and BEFORE the events of later chapters. However, from chapter 11 on, John is keeping track of 6 (count them: 6) parallel paths the the end: it is impossible then for those to be in "order." However, it seems that the 5 paths to the end have a staggered beginning so John puts the start of each countdown in proper order.At the time of writing, which I agree is around 95 AD, in heaven, it was the year ... Wait, just kidding. Heaven is outside of the physical dimension called time. Revelation tells us it reveals past, present and future events on earth. The Letters to the Seven churches contained the present (around 95 AD). But Revelation is not in chronological order, it goes back and forth - it doesn't make sense if you take it in a linear way.
Again I could not disagree more. God wanted to introduce John to the book with 7 seals. It is VERY important because once it gets opened it will be a countdown (trumpets 1 to 7) to when the kingdoms of the world are taken from Satan and he will no longer (and never again) reign as the spiritual leader or prince of this planet....
GOD shows us different vantage points, overlapping events, to get a full perspective. It is like a transparent, five-dimensional sphere of events. You must turn the sphere and look at it at different locations.
The Scroll with seals is like a written play. The trumpet and bowl events fall within this scroll - they have to. You see a climax in the seventh seal that seems to parallel what comes at the seventh bowl. Jack Haford wrote an interesting book, "Equake", where he explains that the scroll is the orders and the trumpets and bowls are the actions. So things don't start taking place until the trumpets sound. The play was written, but the stage is still being set.
This is a good rendition of man's theories and reasoning's. But sorry, it does not fit the text. John was certainly "in the Spirit" but He was NOT transported 2000 years into the future to see the Day of the Lord (Still future to us.)That actually helps a lot to aid my understanding why you believe your "timing" theory.
When Jesus commanded John to "come up hither" to witness things that will be occurring in the future John obeyed by entering through the open door in his spirit. Nowhere does Scripture say he fell into a trance or had visions after arriving there. He was literally an eye witness and a participant in real time to future events in heaven and on the earth as they unfolded in God-time.
There are many, many instances where John said he saw, looked, beheld, heard, etc.
There are many instances where elders and angels interacted with John and John interacted back:
"And one of the elders saith unto me ..,"
"... one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. ..."
"I heard the second beast say, Come and see,"
"I heard the third beast say, Come and see,"
"I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see."
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Those were from just Chapters 5-7. There are others throughout the text. The elders and the angels obviously could see John present in his spirit and interact with him.
There are instances of John:
• eating a book that made his stomach bitter
• measuring the temple
• standing on the sand of the sea
• being carried away into the wilderness
• falling at his feet to mistakenly worship an angel
It is abundantly clear that John was present to witness and even participate in the events from the beginning to the end of Revelation.
It's no coincidence that failure by some to understand that John was an eye-witness and a participant in Revelation as opposed to just having a vision has led to many misunderstandings throughout the book.
Because you need to understand that the throne of God is not like a medieval throne, with a King and his queen sitting beside him clearly visible, and courtroom.
I viewed 1st century Jerusalem and Temple in Revelation the 1st time I read the Bible thru in 2003.
The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19
"BEHOLD! YOUR HOUSE IS LEFT TO YE DESOLATE/A WILDERNESS!"
Matthew 23
35 - “that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
37 - “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
38 Behold! the House of ye is being left desolate<2048>
Luke 13:
34 - “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
35 Behold! the House of ye is being left desolate<2048>,
Revelation 18:19
And they cast dust upon their heads and cried out, lamenting and mourning, saying "woe! woe! the City, the great, in which are rich all the ones having the ships in the sea out of the preciousness of Her,
that to one hour She was desolated<2049>
Since we don't know ANYTHING of God before He began with Adam, how can you know? Perhaps His throne always was. However, perhaps heaven WAS created: if so, He has always been the Lord of heaven since He created it.Heaven did not always exist. It had to be created.
LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
I viewed 1st century Jerusalem and Temple in Revelation the 1st time I read the Bible thru in 2003.
No, I never thought that and still don't.All I can say is, you are going to be SHOCKED when you find Revelation beginning to come to pass, starting with the 6th seal.
Did you ever wonder if you might have it wrong - that Jesus is just about to come for His church - as multiplied millions of believers are expecting?
Of course you can do with this whatever you wish.
To end out this scene (it had to be a vision) John then saw the moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.
iamlamad said: ↑
To end out this scene (it had to be a vision) John then saw the moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.
Good post and I agree with most of it.I'd be pleased if you could show in this text, or any other text, where John saw Jesus ascend.
I've asked this before, and your answer was that we have to infer it. But, my ability to infer from whole cloth is a little on the weak side in this regard. I'd have to suspend belief about what the text actually says. It would help if you could show some Scriptural support for your theory.
The reason why I don't think there is any inference possible here is because Revelation 5:1-11 is an unbroken string of verses beginning with "And ..." all in the same time frame, all occurring in the same place, before the throne.
Also, as I have already elaborated at length, Chapters 4 and 5 are one continuous event in time and space. It begins with Jesus in the throne room beckoning John to come up. The beginning of Chapter 5 is joined to the end of Chapter 4 with the conjunction "And ..." So Jesus is already there, because there is no text saying otherwise.
Without repeating that I just have to imagine it, show me text supporting your timeline theory, particularly that there is some imaginary 2,000-year flashback after verse 4 where Jesus popped down to earth, was born, held his 3-year ministry, and was crucified, then popped back up to greet John in verse 5.
All I ask is you properly exegete that period of time between 4 and 5, instead of insisting on eisegeting it.
All I can say is, you are going to be shocked. And you will be left behind to face the same wrath of God that the world is going to face.No, I never thought that and still don't.
Futurist seem to want the day of the Lord to come upon the Jews again.....I like to think God accomplished that in the 1st century on them. But if you want to believe it is sill future, that is ok by me. I already have a place in heaven with the Lord reserved for me regardless.......
Amo 5:18
Woe to you who desire the day of the LORD!
For what good is the day of the LORD to you?
It will be darkness, and not light.
Who were the adversaries of Jesus in and aroundJudea? The corrupt murderous Judean Rulers! Unfortunately, 100s of thousands of innocent Jews were also "sacrificed" in the slaughter of 70ad.
Isaiah 61:2 was fully fulfilled in the 1st century................
Jer 46:10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts,
A day of vengeance, That He may avenge Himself on His adversaries.
The sword shall devour; It shall be satiated and made drunk with their blood;
For the Lord GOD of hosts has a sacrifice In the north country by the River Euphrates.
"DAYS OF VENGEANCE" Isaiah 61:2 and Luke 21:22 Revelation
Isaiah 61:2
To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Yahweh,
And the day of vengeance<5359> of our 'Elohiym, To comfort all mourners.
Luke 4:
17 the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. Unrolling it, He found the place where it was written:
21 and He began by saying,
“Today this Scripture is fulfilled<4137> in your hearing.”
Luke 21:
22 That days of vengeance<1557> these are, of the to be fulfilled<4130> all the having been written
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress in the land and Wrath<3709> upon this people.
Revelation 19:2
“For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication;
and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.”
https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived ; the solemn warnings and admonitions which they hold out to all nations, but especially such as are favoured with the light and blessings of REVELATION ; together with the impressive and terrific grandeur of the events themselves -- are circumstances which must always insure to the subject of the following pages more than ordinary degrees of interest and importance..............
Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ; and had actually eaten one half thereof, when the soldiers, allured by tile smell of food, threatened her with instant death if she refused to discover it. 'Intimidated by this menace, she immediately produced the remains of her son, which petrified them with horror. At the recital of this melancholy and affecting occurrence, the whole city stood aghast, and poured forth their congratulations on those whom death had hurried away from such heartrending scenes. Indeed, humanity at once shudders and sickens at the narration, nor can any one of the least sensibility reflect upon the pitiable condition to which the female part of the inhabitants of Jerusalem must at this time have been reduced, without experiencing the tenderest emotions of sympathy, or refrain from tears while he reads our SAVIOUR'S pathetic address to the women who " bewailed him" as he was led to Calvary, wherein he evidently refers to these very calamities : "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but for yourselves and fur your children ; for, behold, the days are coming in which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the breasts that never gave suck." Luke xxiii. 29.
The above melancholy fact was also literally foretold by Moses : "The tender and delicate women among you (said be, addressing Israel) who would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil . . . toward her young one . . . which she shall bear," and "eat for want Of all things, secretly, in the siege and straitness wherewith, thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates." (Deut. xxviii. 56, 57.)
===========================
Revelation 18:
8 Thru this in one day shall be arriving<2240> Her blows,
death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be utterly burned<2618>,
that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her.
After all the Greek studies, they pretty much say what most English translations say. We just need to believe what they say.Good post and I agree with most of it.
A good translation can help properly provide a good exegete.
I am in the process of reviewing the threads I have from 2008 as the amount of online Greek resources have become more numerous.
Never ever rely on just 1 Bible version..........One can view 5 of the major Greek texts along with some Bible versions [I was shocked at the number of variances in both]
Greek New Testament - Parallel Greek New Testament by John Hurt
Here are Chapts 4 and 5 for those interested:
Revelation Chapter 4 verse by verse
The word for "trumpet" is only found in Matthew of the Gospels and used twice all the other times it is used in the Epistles and Revelation.
Revelation 4:1
After these I looked and Behold! A door having opened in the heaven, and the sound/voice, the first which I hear, as of trumpet talking with me saying:
"Ascend hence! and I shall be showing to thee which-things is binding to be becoming after these.
TexRec) Revelation 4:1 meta tauta eidon kai idou qura hnewgmenh en tw ouranw kai h fwnh h prwth hn hkousa wV salpiggoV laloushV met emou legousa
anaba wde kai deixw soi a dei genesqai meta tauta
Rotherham) Matthew 6:2 When, therefore, thou mayest be doing an alms, do not sound a trumpet/salpishV <4537> (5661) before thee, just as, the hypocrites, do in the synagogues and in the streets--that they may be glorified by men,--Verily, I say unto you, they are getting back their reward.
{ISA} Matthew 24:31 and He shall be sending His messengers with a trumpet/salpiggoV <4536> sound, great, and they shall be upon-together-gathering the out-called-ones of Him out of the four winds, from extremities of heavens till the extremities of them.
====================
Revelation Chapter 5 verse by verse
Hand seems to be inferred in this verse as it only appears as "right/rights" without the word "hand".
Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software
Revelation 5:1
And I saw on the right of the One-sitting on the throne a scrollet having been written within/inside and without/outside having been sealed to seals seven.
http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm
ByzMaj) Revelation 5:1 kai eidon epi thn dexian tou kaqhmenou epi tou qronou biblion gegrammenon eswqen kai exwqen kat-esfragismenon sfragisin epta
Matt 23:27 Woe to ye Scribes and Pharisees hypocrites that ye are resembling sepulchres having been whitewashed who-any outside/exwqen <1855> indeed are appearing beautiful within/eswqen <2081> yet the are being crammed-full/replete of bones of dead-ones and of all uncleaness
1855. exothen ex'-o-then from 1854; external(-ly):--out(-side, -ward, - wardly), (from) without.
2081. esothen es'-o-then from 2080; from inside; also used as equivalent to 2080 (inside):--inward(-ly), (from) within, without.
I believe in Christ and Yahweh. How would I get left behind?All I can say is, you are going to be shocked. And you will be left behind to face the same wrath of God that the world is going to face.
Why not just believe in God's escape plan? Luke 21:36
Perhaps He did not see the ascent, but he saw the arrival AFTER the ascent. Thanks for pointing that out. He saw the sudden arrival of Jesus back in the throne room.I'd be pleased if you could show in this text, or any other text, where John saw Jesus ascend.
I've asked this before, and your answer was that we have to infer it. But, my ability to infer from whole cloth is a little on the weak side in this regard. I'd have to suspend belief about what the text actually says. It would help if you could show some Scriptural support for your theory.
The reason why I don't think there is any inference possible here is because Revelation 5:1-11 is an unbroken string of verses beginning with "And ..." all in the same time frame, all occurring in the same place, before the throne.
Also, as I have already elaborated at length, Chapters 4 and 5 are one continuous event in time and space. It begins with Jesus in the throne room beckoning John to come up. The beginning of Chapter 5 is joined to the end of Chapter 4 with the conjunction "And ..." So Jesus is already there, because there is no text saying otherwise.
Without repeating that I just have to imagine it, show me text supporting your timeline theory, particularly that there is some imaginary 2,000-year flashback after verse 4 where Jesus popped down to earth, was born, held his 3-year ministry, and was crucified, then popped back up to greet John in verse 5.
All I ask is you properly exegete that period of time between 4 and 5, instead of insisting on eisegeting it.
If it wasn't truth, perhaps it would be funny! Except we will fly right through the roof as if it was not there. That is, all those who are WATCHING will....I believe in Christ and Yahweh. How would I get left behind?
Besides, I do have an escape plan..........
Crumpled Clothes on Sidewalk after Rapture?
Isa 22:1
Here is a message about the Valley of Vision:
What is the reason that all of you go up to the rooftops?
Eze 33:27
“Say thus to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD:
“As I live, surely those who are in the ruins shall fall by the sword,
and the one who is in the open field I will give to the beasts to be devoured,
and those who are in the strongholds and caves shall die of the pestilence.
=========================================
Jesus gave these instructions for the 1st century pre70ad Jewish Christian Apostles in Judea:
"WHERE THE BODY is, there the EAGLES be gathered" Matt 24 Luke 17-- and Revelation
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Mat 24:
17 “Let him who is on the housetop<1430> not descend to take away<142> anything out of his house.
40 “Then two shall be in the field: one be taken<3880> and one being left.
Luk 17:
31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away.
And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back.
35 Two shall be grinding at mill. The one shall be taken<3880> and the other shall be left.