Why has truth changed in 19 years?

[Athanasias]

Pope St. John Paul II said "Pride" celebrations are an offense to Christian values in 2000. Someone should ask Fr. James Martin and bishop Michael Mulhall why truth has changed 19 years later on this issue?

FLASHBACK: St. John Paul II called ‘pride’ celebrations an ‘offense’ to Christian values

 

[Rubiks]

Even conservative Christians generally accept that LGBT orientation is not a choice.

Ironically, their favorite proof text Romans 1 doesn't say people have a biological orientation. It says people choose homosexuality out of idolatry and their hatred for God.

 

[St_Worm2]

...conservative Christians generally accept that LGBT orientation is not a choice.

Hi Rubiks, that has hardly been my experience personally, nor have I seen any data indicating that this is true. If you wouldn't mind, please link us to the source that you got your stats from.

Thanks!

--David

 

[Athanasias]

Even conservative Christians generally accept that LGBT orientation is not a choice.

Ironically, their favorite proof text Romans 1 doesn't say people have a biological orientation. It says people choose homosexuality out of idolatry and their hatred for God.

I have no issue with a person with same sex attraction saying they were born that way. Same sex attraction is a disordered desire. Every human being on the planet(myself included) was born with disordered desire due to the fall of Adam and Eve. This is because they lost the preternatural gift of integrity. Its one thing to have disordered desire but another to treasure it publicly and the sinful lifestyle that acting on it becomes. Everyone is called to be chaste by God. Nobody no matter what orientation(straight or gay) no one should celebrate disorder, sin, and unchastity.

 

[Chesterton]

Even conservative Christians generally accept that LGBT orientation is not a choice.

So they're "proud" of something they had nothing to do with? Weird.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Pope St. John Paul II said "Pride" celebrations are an offense to Christian values in 2000. Someone should ask Fr. James Martin and bishop Michael Mulhall why truth has changed 19 years later on this issue?

FLASHBACK: St. John Paul II called ‘pride’ celebrations an ‘offense’ to Christian values

The truth hasn't changed. It's just that some like the homosexualist James Martin LGBTQSJ have lost sight of the truth. Their regrettable loss. But the truth stands whether they accept it or reject it.

 

[Soyeong]

Even conservative Christians generally accept that LGBT orientation is not a choice.

Ironically, their favorite proof text Romans 1 doesn't say people have a biological orientation. It says people choose homosexuality out of idolatry and their hatred for God.

The fact there have been people who are ex-homosexuals indicates that it is at least in part a choice. The traits that people find sexualy attractive vary from culture to culture. If what we desire could not be influenced by advertising, then it would not be a billion dollar industry. However, the degree that it is influenced by nurture or nature is entirely a moot point because even if it were true that it sexual orientation were 100% genetic, the decision to have homosexual sex would still a choice that someone makes and it is still a sin. A homosexual orientation would explain someone's temptation to sin in an particular area, but it would not excuse their sin. Likewise, alcoholism is genetic and would explain someone's temptation to sin in a particular area, but does not excuse their sin. People taking pride in their sin is even worse.

Philippians 3:17-21 Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us. 18 For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

 

[archer75]

not everything the Pope says is true or perfectly true. Even the RCC doesn't teach that.

 

[chevyontheriver]

not everything the Pope says is true or perfectly true. Even the RCC doesn't teach that.

John Paul was right on this matter though, even if it isn't popular any more.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Hi Rubiks, that has hardly been my experience personally, nor have I seen any data indicating that this is true. If you wouldn't mind, please link us to the source that you got your stats from.

We often get our over all views from listen to others and sometimes that can be pretty accurate without stats.

I say that in this case, because from what I've heard, i would very much tend to agree with the point

 

[St_Worm2]

We often get our over all views from listen to others and sometimes that can be pretty accurate without stats.

I say that in this case, because from what I've heard, i would very much tend to agree with the point

Hi Kenny'sID, from what I've heard, I would very much tend to disagree (but what do I know, I don't have the facts ).

That's the advantage of looking at recent data from organizations like the Barna Group, who provide us with factual information so that we have something else than what we've heard or feel or think (from the circle of friends that we run with) to rely on. What I believe to be true is often confirmed by groups like Barna, but they've also shown me how wrong I've been at times as well.

--David
p.s. - as Christians, we should always be concerned with the facts/the truth, yes! I admit that this topic is of particular interest to me because I come from a very large family (5,000+), and I made my living in the arts for more than 30 years (so I have many family members and friends who are gay). Everyone (including gay people) has the right to hear Biblical truth spoken to them in love, but if conservative Christians begin to believe what the world is telling them, instead of what God teaches us in the Bible, then there will be very few, if any left to do that for them. That's why I was interested in knowing if Rubiks' "factual" statement was actually that, a fact, or if it was something that she simply thought or felt was probably true.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Hi Kenny'sID, from what I've heard, I would very much tend to disagree (but what do I know, I don't have the facts ).

That's the advantage of looking at recent data from organizations like the Barna Group, who provide us with factual information so that we have something else than what we've heard or feel or think (from the circle of friends that we run with) to rely on. What I believe to be true is often confirmed by groups like Barna, but they've also shown me how wrong I've been at times as well.

--David
p.s. - as Christians, we should always be concerned with the facts/the truth, yes! I admit that this topic is of particular interest to me because I come from a very large family (5,000+), and I made my living in the arts for more than 30 years (so I have many family members and friends who are gay). Everyone (including gay people) has the right to hear Biblical truth spoken to them in love, but if conservative Christians begin to believe what the world is telling them, instead of what God teaches us in the Bible, then there will be very few, if any left to do that for them. That's why I was interested in knowing if Rubiks' "factual" statement was actually that, a fact, or if it was something that she simply thought or felt was probably true.

My only point was to the "If you can't show us your stats, you are wrong" It's often not that simple. It is possible to get an idea of how things stand without official stats.

And I would never disagree well researched statistics are most likely more accurate than what we call a "feeling" but it's realistically much more than that. I guess a "feeling" could be defined as a sub/semi conscious conclusion/deduction, but it still entails actual stats. We are constantly gathering info in our minds and sometimes if the differences are overwhelming, it's pretty safe to draw conclusion on less important things with that info, no official stats involved, just the ones in the old noodle.

 

[St_Worm2]

We are constantly gathering info in our minds and sometimes if the differences are overwhelming, it's pretty safe to draw conclusion on less important things with that info, no official stats involved, just the ones in the old noodle.

I agree with you, and I do that kind of thing around here myself, but whenever I do I always add, "It's my belief", "It's my understanding", "If memory serves", or something along those lines as a qualifying phrase (to let people know that I'm speaking from my experience/feelings/beliefs/what I've heard, etc., not from a set of facts, and that I could, therefore, be wrong).

--David

 

[Tutorman]

Pope St. John Paul II said "Pride" celebrations are an offense to Christian values in 2000. Someone should ask Fr. James Martin and bishop Michael Mulhall why truth has changed 19 years later on this issue?

FLASHBACK: St. John Paul II called ‘pride’ celebrations an ‘offense’ to Christian values

Truth never changes. All that stuff is an offense to Christian values

 

[dzheremi]

The truth hasn't changed. Those particular leaders are weak. They should be reprimanded and disciplined if their actions go against the teachings of their own Church.

It should not be difficult to discern what your own Church teaches. I was able to find an official statement of the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of NY and New England on this matter (below) with only about two seconds of searching. Surely these priests already know what they should be teaching and how they therefore should (and shouldn't) be acting, but perhaps they need a refresher. Time to put down the 'pride flag' and open the scriptures, then. The current message, wherein the priest teaches rightly and is essentially rebuked by his bishop, sends at best a confusing message that is hardly in keeping with "Let your yes be yes and your no be no", to illustrate just one verse touched upon by this situation. A healthy church will not hesitate to proclaim the truth in love.

May God grant the Church of Rome wise shepherds, and may they deal decisively with any wolves in sheep's clothing who teach the theology of the world rather than that of Christ.

 

[Julian of Norwich]

May God grant the Church of Rome wise shepherds, and may they deal decisively with any wolves in sheep's clothing who teach the theology of the world rather than that of Christ.

Amen!

 

[Newtheran]

Even conservative Christians generally accept that LGBT orientation is not a choice..

False.