For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is

[-57]

Exactly! Nothing in the Bible agrees with evolution. To embrace one, you must reject the other.

True, the Bible is asked to change..to become "polemic with pagan creation myths and a bit of ancient semitic history."

 

[miamited]

Genesis is not a prophecy. Its an amalgamation of Mesopotamian worldview, a polemic with pagan creation myths and a bit of ancient semitic history.

The point/message is inspired, there is really just one true God, the creator of everything, who called Abraham to be his servant.

Hi myst,

So, the bottom line is that you don't agree that everything the Scriptures proclaim, prophesy or write about is necessarily true. That when Jesus said 'Thy word is truth.', he was only speaking and referencing some Scripture and not all.

I will again say to you that your understanding and my understanding of the source of the knowledge and wisdom found in the Scriptures is vastly different. The idea that it is '... an amalgamation of Mesopotamian worldview, a polemic with pagan creation myths and a bit of ancient semitic history.', is in direct contradiction to my understanding of the source of the Scriptures.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

Hi Ted:

What so mnay of us in these modern days need to do is stop thinking in just English words and understanding and go back to the original languages when a clearer picture is needed. While our translations (whennot deliberately tampered with) are enough for us to grow in grace- every lover of Gods Word should study wiht ancient languages nearby.

In the Mark account Jesus speaks of cut your hand, leg or eye so you will not go into the fires of hell where the worm never dies...

In Luke 16 the rich man is in torment in hell.

Mark uses the term Gehenna we mistranslated as hell. This describes more the type of punishment in the lake of fire more so than the actual destination. Jesus was the first to use this word to describe eternity. It was the town dump in the valley of ginnom.

Luke uses the Word hades- which was well understood as the place of the dead. And as I showed that bvefore people are cast into the lake of fire- death and hades/hell/sheol are cast in first

Hi nolidad,

Just as with myst, while I try to teach in line with the Scriptures, whether any individual believes that such teaching is in line with the Scriptures is between them and the Holy Spirit. Whatever place that you are speaking of, is not the place that Jesus spoke of when he warned us to fear the one who can cast us into hell where the worm never dies and there is eternal torment. That place, the one that Jesus was referencing, is the place where people will be cast on the day of God's judgment whose names are not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life. That place...is hell! At this moment in time, there are no creatures, either human or angelic who have been put there. There is a group of angels that are waiting for that day of God's judgment. They are in chains, but they are not in that place that Jesus spoke of...yet.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

Hi again nolidad,

Thanks for your response and I certainly appreciate your bringing the writings of Jude to mind. You wrote:

The fact that Jude says that the angels who left their first home and came down are reserved for everlasting judgment

Notice please, Jude says that those angels are 'reserved' for everlasting judgment. They haven't yet received that everlasting judgment, at which point they will be cast into hell with all the rest of the vile, wicked and unbelieving.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

Not quite.
Some are destroyed in the lake of fire- that's the second death.
Some will spend eternity in Hell.
Meaning not all who aren't saved will go to Hell. God is just. Many have never heard of Christ and have still tried to live a good life. As Paul said, those who are outside of the law will be judged outside of the law. They will NOT come into the presence of God. However, whether they are in a lesser eternity, whether they are destroyed and gone or whether their eternity will be in damnation is for the Lord to decide.

Hi KW,

Thanks for your response. Suffice to say that I'm not in agreement with that understanding. My understanding of the Scriptures is that there are only one of two places in which every creature that God has ever made, to spend eternity. With Him, or apart from Him.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

Genesis is not a prophecy. Its an amalgamation of Mesopotamian worldview, a polemic with pagan creation myths and a bit of ancient semitic history.

The point/message is inspired, there is really just one true God, the creator of everything, who called Abraham to be his servant.

Hi myst,

So... when the Scriptures in Genesis speak of the biting of the heel and the crushing of the head...that's something that had already happened? When God spoke to Abraham and promised that he would be the father of a great nation of people...that was something that had already come to pass? I contend that the writings of Genesis contain dozens of prophetic words.

Suffice to say, and I know that your reference is more specifically looking at the creation account and not all of Genesis, there is still a fairly wide gulf between what you believe about the source of wisdom and knowledge that is found revealed to us in the Scriptures.

Again, "Its an amalgamation of Mesopotamian worldview, a polemic with pagan creation myths and a bit of ancient semitic history." That statement, as far as my understanding of the Scriptures, is patently false. You and I will merely have to agree to disagree on that point.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[KWCrazy]

Hi KW,

Thanks for your response. Suffice to say that I'm not in agreement with that understanding. My understanding of the Scriptures is that there are only one of two places in which every creature that God has ever made, to spend eternity. With Him, or apart from Him.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Paul said in Romans 2:
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Jesus said in John 14:6 “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

So nobody makes it to the presence of God except by Jesus, but those who are not Christian but who live a moral life will be judged according to their own hearts. They won't be in the presence of God, but neither will they be cast out of Heaven simply because they never had the offer of salvation. This is an increasingly small group as most of the world now has heard the message of Christ at least once. This is how I read it. Judgement then is not binary; Heaven or Hell; but is administered by a just God who has at His disposal every option.

This does not apply to us. We who have heard the word of God and have rejected it have a place in the flames of Hell; some for final destruction, some for eternal torment.

This is as I read it, supported by the Scriptures. It is the word of a man and not the word of God. May the Holy Spirit reveal the truth to any who seek it. We will never know everything in this life. When God reveals it all to us, none of this will matter.

 

[KWCrazy]

Being a geologist myself, I know that I do not take truth from other people, but rather I take my knowledge directly from God's creation.

We prefer to find wisdom not in the rocks, but in He who created the rocks. This earth is temporary and will pass away. The word of God will never pass away.

 

[miamited]

Hi KW,

Thanks for your response. One of the issues I have with a lot of christians is this idea that we're going to live in heaven.

They won't be in the presence of God, but neither will they be cast out of Heaven

No one is going to live eternally in heaven. The last words of the Revelation tell us that after the day of God's judgment, we will live upon the earth. Where God will be our God and we will be His people. We will have bodies of flesh and blood just as we have today. They will be resurrected bodies of incorruptible flesh, but flesh, nevertheless.

Here's what the Scriptures say of those who find themselves consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulphur: But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

I'm afraid that I disagree with your position that there is some 'third' option for good people who didn't believe in God through His Son, Jesus. As I understand it, they would be the 'unbelieving' that is written about above. Those consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur that are spoken of above, don't have to fit in all eight of the groups that are mentioned. They only have to be participants in one.

According to the Scriptures, it is God's desire that everyone come to faith in His Son that they might gain eternal life. Trust me, please, it's all about faith in Jesus! Good people, law abiding people, according to the Scriptures, aren't going to be saved merely because they kept the law, which is what your are claiming of those who are 'good' but don't know Jesus. For by observance of the law shall no flesh be saved. It's in there!!! I stand staunchly opposed to this idea that some christians seem to have that there's some special place or special treatment that 'good' people will receive.

Secondly, if your claim is that those who obey the law, even though they are not under the law, are the good people who will receive this special dispensation. What is the first law? You are to love, let me repeat 'love!' the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. So, I'd ask, who is it that is observing the law, but doesn't have a keen sense of 'who' the God of the Scriptures is.

The Scriptures merely say that those not under the law shall be judged apart from the law. That's true. That is speaking of the Jew. Gentiles are those not under the law. They will be judged apart from the law, but on their faith in Jesus. I think Jesus was very clear, no one comes to the Father except through him. My understanding is that the 'good' people that you seem to be referring to are just like all those destroyed in the flood. There were likely some 'good' people destroyed in the flood. That is, of course, if we're measuring 'good' according to human knowledge and understanding. God's word says that until we come to the knowledge of Jesus, there is no one good. And just in case we desire to think of our wonderful mother or father who was so good to us as children and watched us grow and supported us; or we think of that nice man or woman that's always helping out, God word repeats...No, not one! Even after we come to Jesus, we aren't good, but we fall under the blood of our Lord and Savior that somehow blinds God to seeing our wickedness. Many pastors teach that on the day of God's judgment, those whose names are found in the Lamb's Book of Life will not be judged for their own deeds, but rather will be judged on the deeds of God's Son. Our wickedness is placed out of His sight as far as the east is from the west. However, it is only if we have come under the blood of Jesus, that God is able to overlook our sin.

Yes, I know that in our human nature it is a difficult teaching. That we are so wanting to think that being a good person is going to gain God's mercy apart from the blood of His Son. However, I'm convicted that one of the major reasons that God's word declares that none of us is righteous is that there isn't a one of us who can love God, apart from the knowledge of who God is. If we have the knowledge of who God is, then we will also have the knowledge of His Son. I also think that there is a very good reason that the new covenant Scriptures declare to us that there is no salvation afforded for merely keeping the law.

It is my understanding that everyone born is born under the curse of the second death. It is only through the knowledge and acceptance of what Jesus has done, that pulls us out from under that curse. So the 'good' person was born under the curse of death and he will die under the curse of death...unless and until that person comes to the knowledge of God's grace and mercy afforded to us through His Son.

I also understand that in our humaness, that's hard for us to accept. That we are born cursed and have to make some conscious decision to be removed from that curse.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[trophy33]

Hi myst,

So... when the Scriptures in Genesis speak of the biting of the heel and the crushing of the head...that's something that had already happened? When God spoke to Abraham and promised that he would be the father of a great nation of people...that was something that had already come to pass? I contend that the writings of Genesis contain dozens of prophetic words.

Dozens? I am Ok with dozens. As I said, Genesis is amalgamation of many things, there certainly are some prophecies in it.

 

[trophy33]

Hi myst,

So, the bottom line is that you don't agree that everything the Scriptures proclaim, prophesy or write about is necessarily true. That when Jesus said 'Thy word is truth.', he was only speaking and referencing some Scripture and not all.

I will again say to you that your understanding and my understanding of the source of the knowledge and wisdom found in the Scriptures is vastly different. The idea that it is '... an amalgamation of Mesopotamian worldview, a polemic with pagan creation myths and a bit of ancient semitic history.', is in direct contradiction to my understanding of the source of the Scriptures.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

If we do not believe in an automatic dictation, then we must acept that some things in the Bible are from the human writers. And thats what I accept.

 

[trophy33]

Are you once again disagreeing with Paul where he says ALL scripture is inspired, God breathed?

Paul did not say "Bible", but "Scriptures".
Paul did not say "all words", but "all Scriptures".
Paul did not say "dictated".
Paul did not say "useful for astronomy or biology", but "useful for rightousness".

So once again, I am not disagreeing with anything except of your interpretation.

 

[-57]

Paul did not say "Bible", but "Scriptures".
Paul did not say "all words", but "all Scriptures".
Paul did not say "dictated".
Paul did not say "useful for astronomy or biology", but "useful for rightousness".

So once again, I am not disagreeing with anything except of your interpretation.

Bible...scripture...means the same thing in this instance. I'll grant you scripture verses make up the bible.

Nobody said it was dictated. Are you saying Paul wrote down error that made it into the bible?

 

[trophy33]

Bible...scripture...means the same thing in this instance. I'll grant you scripture verses make up the bible.

Not at all. There was no canon or selected, certified books in the time this verse was written.

Nobody said it was dictated. Are you saying Paul wrote down error that made it into the bible?

If you do not accept the human side of the Bible, you effectivelly say it was all dictated.

 

[KWCrazy]

No one is going to live eternally in heaven. The last words of the Revelation tell us that after the day of God's judgment, we will live upon the earth.

Heaven and earth will pass away and it will be a new earth; not this planet.
When Jesus was dying on the cross, He told the criminal who believed in Him: “today you will be with Me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43). Paul expressed the same confidence that after death he would be with Christ: “My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better” (Philippians 1:23). So it is clear that we, if we believe, will be with Christ after we die. That is heaven, where Jesus is (see e.g. Acts 3:21), where God is (see e.g. Matthew 23:9), and where the angels are (see e.g. Matthew 22:30). The body we now have is just a ‘tent’ (2 Corinthians 5:1), and when we die we go home to be with God (2 Corinthians 5:8). source

So we will live forever with Christ with glorified bodies on a new plane of existence. Heaven and earth will become one place.

Here's what the Scriptures say of those who find themselves consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulphur: But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Yes, the second death is the destruction of their souls. They will cease to exist.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Some will have eternal torment, some will burn up and be gone.
Continuing...
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

What use is it to judge each according to his works if his works account for nothing? Again, I believe this is directed at those who never heard the words of Jesus and never were given the option of accepting or rejecting Him. Those of us who have been presented with the choice bear the consequence of our rejection. Paul is explaining that God is just.

According to the Scriptures, it is God's desire that everyone come to faith in His Son that they might gain eternal life. Trust me, please, it's all about faith in Jesus!

Exactly.

Good people, law abiding people, according to the Scriptures, aren't going to be saved merely because they kept the law, which is what your are claiming of those who are 'good' but don't know Jesus.

I am only repeating what Paul wrote.
So the man who is raised in a remote land who has no exposure to the testimony of Jesus lives a life of self-sacrifice and helping to heal the sick or injured. He does so because the knowledge of good and evil are in us all, even if he has never seen a Bible. Paul says he will be judged outside of the law. That doesn't excuse those of us who have heard the message and have rejected it. We rejected the son of God. Some never knew of Him.

I stand staunchly opposed to this idea that some christians seem to have that there's some special place or special treatment that 'good' people will receive.

So what happens to a person who dies before he ever hears of the Lord? Is he damned eternally for rejecting a God he never heard of?

Secondly, if your claim is that those who obey the law, even though they are not under the law, are the good people who will receive this special dispensation. What is the first law? You are to love, let me repeat 'love!' the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. So, I'd ask, who is it that is observing the law, but doesn't have a keen sense of 'who' the God of the Scriptures is.

Christ mentioned the good Samaritan who cared for an enemy but never knew of Christ. Was he condemned?
Among us there is no excuse, what of those untold millions who have never had the chance to accept or reject that which they have never heard?

I think Jesus was very clear, no one comes to the Father except through him.

That speaks to the proximity to the Father, not avoidance of damnation.

There were likely some 'good' people destroyed in the flood. That is, of course, if we're measuring 'good' according to human knowledge and understanding.

Undeniably, the wages of sin are death and all are guilty of sin. What then? Salvation was not even offered to the gentiles at that point. Were they destroyed, or sent to Hell? Personally, I think they were destroyed.

God's word says that until we come to the knowledge of Jesus, there is no one good.

True, we are all deserving of death. Some of us have had our sins paid for by blood atonement.
I'm quite certain we will be judged by how we lived our lives and it will have an impact on our station in Heaven. I don't believe we will all be equal. Our sins will be removed, but how many treasures in Heaven will we have stored?

Regardless, none of this applies to we who have heard the word of God anyway. In us there is no excuse. If we reject the Savior we reject salvation. If we teach others that the Bible is false than we earn our place in the lake of fire with the other false prophets. We who are Christians need to stand for the word of God and confess that Jesus is Lord and that the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.

 

[-57]

Not at all. There was no canon or selected, certified books in the time this verse was written.

So what? Just because it was selected didn't make it the word of God. It was selected because it was the word of God.
There is verse after verse that presents Genesis as literal and historical. You've been presented these verses.
There's also web site after web site that scientifically present a young earth.

If you do not accept the human side of the Bible, you effectivelly say it was all dictated.

Sin and death spread because of one man...how is that the human side rather than being inspired.

Was Enoch 7th from Adam the 7th person who evolved from a photo-human?

 

[miamited]

If we do not believe in an automatic dictation, then we must acept that some things in the Bible are from the human writers. And thats what I accept.

Hi myst,

Well, I'm not sure that we can label the method by which the words came to be written on the various parchment scrolls that made up the Scriptures, 'automatic dictation'. The Scriptures say that the writers were 'led' by the Spirit to write the things that they wrote. Each writer may well have been allowed to write with his personal flair or style of writing, but claims of the subject that they were writing about...were true. There is no, well, I want to write about this and tell this account of events because that's what my mother and father told me when I was growing up. Or, I'm going to write that the creation came about in this way because that's what I read in the Gilgamesh writings.

However, if that's what you want to accept. Then by all means... accept it. Jesus said that the Spirit of God, once indwelling with our spirit, would lead us into 'all' truth. Each of us must allow that it's the job of the Spirit of God to convict us of the truth of God. Between you and I, there is an irreconcilable difference in how we understand the truth of the Scriptures. If, Jesus was telling the truth, then one of us, or both of us are not being given the truth. We could one of us be right and the other wrong, or we could both be wrong. However, when it comes to two opposed understandings, then we can't both be understanding the truth.

That is the reality of truth.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[trophy33]

Hi myst,

Well, I'm not sure that we can label the method by which the words came to be written on the various parchment scrolls that made up the Scriptures, 'automatic dictation'. The Scriptures say that the writers were 'led' by the Spirit to write the things that they wrote. Each writer may well have been allowed to write with his personal flair or style of writing, but claims of the subject that they were writing about...were true. There is no, well, I want to write about this and tell this account of events because that's what my mother and father told me when I was growing up. Or, I'm going to write that the creation came about in this way because that's what I read in the Gilgamesh writings.

However, if that's what you want to accept. Then by all means... accept it. Jesus said that the Spirit of God, once indwelling with our spirit, would lead us into 'all' truth. Each of us must allow that it's the job of the Spirit of God to convict us of the truth of God. Between you and I, there is an irreconcilable difference in how we understand the truth of the Scriptures. If, Jesus was telling the truth, then one of us, or both of us are not being given the truth. We could one of us be right and the other wrong, or we could both be wrong. However, when it comes to two opposed understandings, then we can't both be understanding the truth.

That is the reality of truth.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

A human writer can be lead, but words are his. If you want to say that every word is perfect, you must believe that everything was just dictated and perfectly preserved till today.

Which it obviously not what happened.

Also, if its the human writer who expresses what he is lead to express, he uses his understanding of the world to express it, not ours. This understanding is not inspired.

 

[miamited]

Hi KW,

Thanks for your response.

Heaven and earth will pass away and it will be a new earth; not this planet.

That's going to depend on what God means by 'new'. Does He mean new as in the old is completely destroyed and a new one created? Or, does He mean new, in that the surface is completely burned up and that the new city of Zion will come down from the heavens to the earth and thereby make the earth 'new' as to the living plants and streams and continents and so forth, along with a new understanding of the inhabitants for the knowledge and truth of God?

The Scriptures make a claim that the 'old order' of things has passed away. I'm willing to accept either position as a possibility from what we can glean from the Scriptures. But no matter how one accepts the 'new heaven and new earth' concept...it won't be us living in heaven. We won't be flitting about with the wings of angels, jumping from cloud to cloud to relate and visit, with our like minded saved brothers and sisters. It will be a physical planet of dirt and flowers and animals and trees. There will be no seas upon the earth, and there will likely not be any sun or moon to shine upon the earth, as we experience today.

The earth will definitely be different. However, whether that difference is built upon the foundation of the original earth, or the entire planet is destroyed and remade, is an arguable position. But, let me repeat, that doesn't make any difference to my point that I'm trying to draw out from your statement.

So we will live forever with Christ with glorified bodies on a new plane of existence. Heaven and earth will become one place.

I've never considered that there will be some 'new plane' of existence, and I don't find any support for such thinking in the Scriptures. Perhaps I'm not understanding what you're meaning by 'plane of existence'.

You then asked:

So what happens to a person who dies before he ever hears of the Lord? Is he damned eternally for rejecting a God he never heard of?

As I understand the Scriptures, one must know and accept the terms of God's offer of eternal life. He will be judged for his sin.

You then asked:

Christ mentioned the good Samaritan who cared for an enemy but never knew of Christ. Was he condemned?

The account of the Samaritan was a parable. There is no evidence that the story really happened in someone's life upon the earth. However, the purpose of the story, as Jesus brings out after telling it, was for us to consider who really is our brother. Whether there actually was a 'good Samaritan' is not made clear in the account. However, neither is it made clear that he didn't know the Lord. The Samaritan woman at the well knew that there was coming a Messiah. So, there is evidence that the Samaritans may have known, or at least been searching for, the Messiah.

You then stated:

That speaks to the proximity to the Father, not avoidance of damnation.

I'm not clear on what your point is in that statement. No one comes to the Father except through me. He later speaks of the Father drawing those who would believe, to him.

You then wrote:

Undeniably, the wages of sin are death and all are guilty of sin. What then? Salvation was not even offered to the gentiles at that point. Were they destroyed, or sent to Hell? Personally, I think they were destroyed.

Possibly. We do know that Jesus visited the grave while he was in the tomb. It's possible that it was during that time that Jesus made himself known to those who had died before his sacrifice for sin was made.

You seem to want to push this agenda that there are some who will be good enough to earn eternal life with God without following what seems to be clearly explained as the only way to eternal life in God's word. I don't know. All I can tell you is what God's word says. I know and understand that in our humaness this is a hard lesson. However, I believe that it is the clear teaching of the Scriptures. Paul wrote to those in his day that if they were to confess that Jesus is Lord, they would be saved. He doesn't seem to allow that there is some other way of salvation.

Finally your wrote:

Regardless, none of this applies to we who have heard the word of God anyway. In us there is no excuse. If we reject the Savior we reject salvation. If we teach others that the Bible is false than we earn our place in the lake of fire with the other false prophets. We who are Christians need to stand for the word of God and confess that Jesus is Lord and that the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.

That's also my encouragement.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

Hi myst,

Thanks for your response. You wrote:

If you want to say that every word is perfect, you must believe that everything was just dictated and perfectly preserved till today.

What I know is that neither you or I will ever understand the full mystery of exactly how our God works in establishing His will upon the earth. What I am absolutely against, in your teaching, is your belief that the account found in Genesis is some amalgamation of other creation accounts that may or may not have existed in the day in which that part of the Scriptures were first written.

So, whether one cares to believe that the Scriptures were somehow dictated or encouraged by the Spirit, I absolutely stand opposed to any idea that they are such as you have claimed.

God bless,
In Christ, ted