Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

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nolidad

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I agree.
But I'm very disturbed by some on these forums that clearly state they could sin if they wanted to but don't want to.

What kind of message is that to a new Christian?
Where does it say in the N.T. that we could sin if we want to?

Jesus said the lawless would be told to depart from Him.
Mathew 7:23

Paul said some with certain behaviors are not going to make heaven.
Romans 13:4-5
Romans 13:8-14

Luke 9:62 jesus said:
"No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, if fit for the Kingdom of God.

Speaking biblical truth is not judging someone's soul....
Indeed, it is those that claim someone was "never saved to begin with" that is judging souls.


Hate to tell you but people can sin if they want to! They have already been forgiven, but that does not mean that they will not experience the consequences built into sin!

We should not preach that to a new believer, but we should tell a new believer who most assuredly make a mess still fo their lives (they are brand new babes spiritually after all) that their is unlimited forgivenss while they are growing in Grace til they die! and them remind them of Romans 6:1- we should be learning to toss aside sinful ways and put on the new man!

Matt. 7 Jesus also said to those that He NEVER knew them. Not knew them once but doesn't know them now! They never had a saving relationship with Jesus!

As for your Romans quotes- they have nothing at all to do with salvation! One is about experiencing temporal punishment for disobeying earthly authority, and the other is about holy living because the day is getting closer!

As for Luke- it is about being a disciple not about being saved. Disciple ship is not salvation.

But if that were the case as you allege- the John Mark would have lost his salvation for he turned back from following Paul and Barnabbas because he wanted worldly things. But Paul at the end of his life said this:

2 Timothy 4:11
Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.
 
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Shimokita

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That's what I pointed out in the OP that Catholic believe. Initial salvation by faith, Final salvation by works. It's a different gospel whereby one trusts in their own performance to Finally save them, rather than trusting in Christ to Finally save them.
Nonsense. Enough with the characterizations. This is precisely what Trent states:

Nor must this be omitted, that although in the sacred writings so much is attributed to good works, that even he that shall give a drink of cold water to one of his least ones, Christ promises, shall not lose his reward; and the Apostle testifies that, That which is at present momentary and light of our tribulation, worketh for us above measure exceedingly an eternal weight of glory; nevertheless, far be it that a Christian should either trust or glory in himself and not in the Lord, whose bounty toward all men is so great that He wishes the things that are His gifts to be their merits.
Our good works and our obedience are the gifts of God, just as I stated previously in this thread.

If so called "initial" salvation whereby it is said, "By grace you have been saved by faith" doesn't finalize one's salvation status, then it's not actually "salvation". Under Catholic soteriology it just puts you at the starting gate and you work to be saved from that point.
Nonsense, I already responded to this verse previously. The text states "have been saved by faith." Just because you "have been saved" does not mean that you will stay saved. And you know plenty well that this is the case. You consider yourself saved, and you know plenty well what will happen to you if you go out and start raping and killing people tomorrow. Do not deceive yourself. You and everyone else on this forum knows that obedience is required.
 
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bcbsr

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Nonsense. Enough with the characterizations. This is precisely what Trent states:

Nor must this be omitted, that although in the sacred writings so much is attributed to good works, that even he that shall give a drink of cold water to one of his least ones, Christ promises, shall not lose his reward; and the Apostle testifies that, That which is at present momentary and light of our tribulation, worketh for us above measure exceedingly an eternal weight of glory; nevertheless, far be it that a Christian should either trust or glory in himself and not in the Lord, whose bounty toward all men is so great that He wishes the things that are His gifts to be their merits.
And this is what the Catholic Catechism says

The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.
 
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Shimokita

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Those of us who have put our faith in Christ have already arrived.

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

1Jonh 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Apparently you don't view yourself as have been qualified to have eternal life at this point. Yeh I would agree with that.
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
 
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Shimokita

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And this is what the Catholic Catechism says

The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
 
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bcbsr

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Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Doesn't happen for those born of God because "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

Don't confuse the conditions for salvation with the condition of the saved.
 
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bcbsr

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Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Don't know why you're repeating the same verse you misapplied. But I might as well repeat my answer.

Doesn't happen for those born of God because "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

Don't confuse the conditions for salvation with the condition of the saved.
 
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Shimokita

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Doesn't happen for those born of God because "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

Don't confuse the conditions for salvation with the condition of the saved.
You believe that you are born of God. Why do you continue to sin?
 
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Shimokita

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Don't know why you're repeating the same verse you misapplied. But I might as well repeat my answer.

Doesn't happen for those born of God because "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

Don't confuse the conditions for salvation with the condition of the saved.
I am repeating the same verse because you have no answer for it. And there are plenty of other verses that indicate that a Christian can fall from grace. Do not be deceived.
 
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bcbsr

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You do not sin? I can't take you seriously anymore. Have a nice day.
And that's you're response to 1John 3:9. Ah yes I just noticed that you have posted the Galatians passage and then 2 minutes later posting the same thing again with the excuse that I hadn't responded to your first post.

So that's what you do? If someone doesn't answer you within 2 minutes you repeat your posts? I can't take you seriously either given your excuses. So have a good day!
 
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Shimokita

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And that's you're response to 1John 3:9. Ah yes I just noticed that you have posted the Galatians passage and then 2 minutes later posting the same thing again with the excuse that I hadn't responded to your first post.

So that's what you do? If someone doesn't answer you within 2 minutes you repeat your posts? I can't take you seriously either given your excuses. So have a good day!
Obviously 1 John 3:9 does not mean that a Christian will never sin again. That is why I asked you the question - because you consider yourself born again but you obviously still sin.

So you have done nothing to prove your assertion that a person who is born of God is incapable of committing the sins mentioned by St. Paul in Galatians. The fact that you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit today does not mean that you are incapable of rejecting him tomorrow and sinning, as many Christians do. Why is that? Because as I stated before, God does not turn a believer into a puppet robot without free will to choose.
 
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bcbsr

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Hate to tell you but people can sin if they want to!
But given that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 And as such apparently lost the ability to live it sin due to the regenerate nature, then either they won't "want" to sin in such a fashion, or simply find that they lack the ability to do so.

So you can't equate the behavior of the unregenerate with that of those born of God concerning these issues of behavior.
 
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Shimokita

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Actually given that it says, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." those born of God don't have the kind of free will that had prior to being born of God. They are new creatures in Christ. They are not the same as the unregenerate. Believe it, or remain an unbeliever!

But given that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 And as such apparently lost the ability to live it sin due to the regenerate nature, then either they won't "want" to sin in such a fashion, or simply find that they lack the ability to do so.

So you can't equate the behavior of the unregenerate with that of those born of God concerning these issues of behavior.
You believe that you are born of God, why do you go on sinning? Are you honestly trying to sit here and tell me that you never sin?

FYI, if you call me an unbeliever again, I will need to report you. Please refrain.
 
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bcbsr

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You believe that you are born of God, why do you go on sinning? Are you honestly trying to sit here and tell me that you never sin?
None of us born of God continue to sin in the sense 1John 3:9 speaks of it. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."
 
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klutedavid

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Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

What is your view as to what one's final salvation is contingent upon?

I've noticed that some Christians will parse between two types of salvation. The first being "initial salvation" or they may refer to it as "justification" which they say is by faith alone apart from works, but for them that is just the start of the process of salvation culminating in "Final salvation" which involves works. They don't believe that if a person is initially "saved" by faith he will necessarily finally be saved. Salvation is not actually salvation if the person ends up in hell. So if salvation is not finalized upon coming to faith in Christ, it's not salvation. As such the only real "salvation" is final salvation.

But concerning Final Salvation, take Catholicism. According to the Catholic Catechism it says under the topic "Final Salvation"

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments
The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.

In fact what the Catholics refer to as "Commandments" go beyond the 10 Commandments as they add a plethora of commandments like if you wear a condom you're guilty of a mortal sin. Can't find that in the 10 Commandments. Likewise there are other Christians of non-Catholic sects who will have their own plethora of commands they insist we have to comply with in order to be finally saved. I've debated with many of them on these forums. Like they'll create a new law by cherry picking the "moral" law of Moses and insist one must keep that new law to be saved. Or likewise others will concatenate all the New Testaments commands together and append to each one the phrase "in order to be saved".

As I see it that's the same concept of justification by law Paul contrasted with justification by faith apart from law. But they'll say that Paul was just referring to a particular set of commands and not to other sets of derivative commands. It's a different gospel as it see it. But what do you think? What is your view of Final Salvation?
1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.
 
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bcbsr

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1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.
Yep, but don't confuse the condition to be saved with the condition of the saved.

Those who have been saved will consequently have certain characteristics. But while the characteristics are indicators that one has been saved, they are not conditions in order to have been saved.
 
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Shimokita

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None of us born of God continue to sin in the sense 1John 3:9 speaks of it. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."
Regardless, you have done nothing to prove your assertion that a born again Christian is incapable of committing the sins that St. Paul speaks of in Galatians.
 
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