The Point of Ezekiel's prophecy

mkgal1

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I just read this on Ligonier's Ministries page:

“Then the glory of the Lord went out from the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubim. And the cherubim lifted up their wings and mounted up from the earth before my eyes as they went out, with the wheels beside them” (vv. 18–19a).

- Ezekiel 10
Travel the world, and you will find Christians meeting for worship in unusual locales. New church plants often hold services in school cafeterias or movie theaters. Even old railroad cars have been used as church buildings in other countries. Moreover, unusual congregational meeting places are nothing new. After all, the earliest believers often met for worship in the Roman catacombs during periods of persecution.

Jesus’ dialogue with the Samaritan woman in John 4 has inspired Christians’ willingness to meet wherever we can find space. Our Savior’s statement that His followers will not worship exclusively in Samaria or Jerusalem but “in spirit and truth” indicate that God’s presence is not limited to any place or time (vv. 21–24). That is not to say that sacred space has no place in the new covenant. Our sanctuaries’ design and architecture always influence our worship for good or for ill. However, the Lord is not limited to one place, nor does He require a specific kind of church building for us to worship Him rightly.

Right before the exile into Babylon, the old covenant community lost sight of the fact that the Lord does not limit Himself to one place. True, He chose to make His presence felt in a special way in the Jerusalem temple during the old covenant period. Yet He was by no means imprisoned there. A belief that God could never leave His temple, however, was commonly held during the ministries of Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Thus, the people paid little heed to the warnings of these prophets to repent lest Jerusalem be destroyed. If the Lord could not leave Jerusalem, how could it be destroyed? “This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord” they would cry in order to shout down the threats of divine judgment (Jer. 7:4).

In this context, the vision God granted to Ezekiel in today’s passage was for the purpose of telling the covenant community that the Lord could not be limited to Jerusalem and that He could easily abandon the physical temple in order to bring about its destruction. Ezekiel saw the same chariot-throne that he wrote about in chapter 1 of his book, only this time the chariot was parked outside the temple (10:1–3). The glory of God left His place above the cherubim of the ark in the Holy of Holies and exited the temple, carried off by the chariot (vv. 4–22). By this vision, Ezekiel saw that Yahweh was leaving the place where His people normally met with Him, opening up Jerusalem to the invasion of its enemies. ~ Ligonier Ministries

.....thoughts?
 
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keras

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..thoughts?
Yes; God's Shekinah glory left Solomons Temple and Ezekiel saw it.
The Second Temple never had the Shekinah glory.
Now, it is we Christians who represent the Temple on earth. 1 Corinthians 3:16

But a new Temple will be built by the Lord's people, Zechariah 6:15, and the Glory of God will come again into it. Ezekiel 43:1-9. Verse 10 onwards, describes the details of its construction and use.
Do NOT think that the Israelites of verse 10 refers to Jews only. We Christians ARE the Israelites of God, the Overcomers for Him and the Victorious ones.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Yes; God's Shekinah glory left Solomons Temple and Ezekiel saw it.
The Second Temple never had the Shekinah glory.
Now, it is we Christians who represent the Temple on earth. 1 Corinthians 3:16

But a new Temple will be built by the Lord's people, Zechariah 6:15, and the Glory of God will come again into it. Ezekiel 43:1-9. Verse 10 onwards, describes the details of its construction and use.
Do NOT think that the Israelites of verse 10 refers to Jews only. We Christians ARE the Israelites of God, the Overcomers for Him and the Victorious ones.
Please visit my Reve 15:8 thread and the Shekinah glory in the Sanctuary located up in heaven:

Revelation 15:18 "...NO ONE WAS ABLE TO ENTER SANCTUARY......"

Revelation 15:8
And the Sanctuary<3485> is being replete of smoke out of the Glory of the God and out of the power of Him.
And no one was able to be entering into the Sanctuary until should be being finished the seven blows/stripes of the seven Messengers
========================
The earthly 1st century Temple/Sanctuary being measured pre70ad:

Revelation 11:

1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary<3485> of the God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833>[water lavar/Altar of Sacrifice], without of the Sanctuary, be casting-out!<1544> out-side<1854>, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations and the holy City they shall be trampling<3961> forty two months.

Luke 21:24
“And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”
==============================
Revelation 3:12 He who is overcoming -- I will make him a pillar in the Sanctuary of my God, and without he may not go any more, and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the City of my God, the new Jerusalem, that doth come down out of the heaven from my God -- also my new name.
Revelation 11:19 And opened was the Sanctuary of God in the heaven, and there was seen the ark of His covenant in His sanctuary, and there did come lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail.
==================================
Exodus 40:34
Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
1 Kings 8:10

And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy place, that the cloud filled the house of the LORD,
2 Chronicles 5:14

So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.
==================================

Studies In The Scriptures - Tabernacle Shadows - Chapter 1
The Camp--The Gate--
The Court--The Bronze Altar--The Water Laver
The Tabernacle--
The First Veil--
The Table--The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--
The Second Veil
The Mercy Seat and Ark--
The Significance of These and Their Antitypes.

 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I just read this on Ligonier's Ministries page:

Jesus’ dialogue with the Samaritan woman in John 4 has inspired Christians’ willingness to meet wherever we can find space. Our Savior’s statement that His followers will not worship exclusively in Samaria or Jerusalem but “in spirit and truth” indicate that God’s presence is not limited to any place or time (vv. 21–24). That is not to say that sacred space has no place in the new covenant. Our sanctuaries’ design and architecture always influence our worship for good or for ill. However, the Lord is not limited to one p

In this context, the vision God granted to Ezekiel in today’s passage was for the purpose of telling the covenant community that the Lord could not be limited to Jerusalem and that He could easily abandon the physical temple in order to bring about its destruction.

.....thoughts?
Great info and post mk.......
Jerem 3 and Reve 11 come to mind:

Jeremiah 3:16
“Then it shall come to pass, when you are multiplied and increased in the land in those days,” says the LORD, “that they will say no more, The Ark of the Covenant of the LORD.'
It shall not come to mind, nor shall they remember it, nor shall they visit it, nor shall it be made anymore.

Hebrews 9:4
which had the golden censer and the Ark of the Covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron's rod that budded, and the Tablets of the Covenant;

Revelation 11:19

And was opened the Sanctuary of the God in the heaven and was seen the Ark of the Covenant of Him in the Sanctuary of Him
and became lightnings and voices/sounds and thunders and quaking and great hail.
=========================
A few threads on the AofC:

Will the Ark ever be found?/
Do you believe the Ark of the Covenant will ever be found?
Ark of the Covenant Found Before The End of Days?

The finding of the Ark of the Covenant could be one of the catalysts for the start of the coming tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18. For the finding of the Ark could be one of the catalysts for the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel deciding that they're going to immediately begin to build a Third Temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. This will require that they destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. This destruction could then bring about the great war which will begin the coming tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18.


The current, secular government of Israel has been very careful to protect the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque ever since Israel took military control of the Temple Mount back in 1967. For the Israeli government knows that if the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel were to destroy the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the third holiest sites in Islam) in order to clear the Temple Mount for the building of a Third Temple, this could mean the end of the state of Israel, because Muslim armies and militias worldwide could in their total rage descend on Israel en masse in an all-out jihad, attacking Israel simultaneously from every side, overwhelming its defenses and quickly overrunning its tiny territory, defeating it completely.

While the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel are no doubt aware of this danger to Israel should the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque ever be destroyed, they believe that the Third Temple must nonetheless be built exactly where the First and Second Temples stood: right over the Rock of Sacrifice (the Rock of the Dome of the Rock) on which Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac. And the ultra-Orthodox Jews could eventually be brought to the point where they will even desire to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel, believing that only in its demise will God make it possible for them to establish a perfectly ultra-Orthodox, city-state of Israel within the walled Old City of Jerusalem (which contains the Temple Mount), and build in it a Third Temple before which they can restart the daily Mosaic sacrifices and perfectly keep every jot and tittle of the Mosaic law.

The ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel are currently very well-armed, as they are allowed by Israel to even have machine guns for self-defense against the Palestinians. If the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel start to get squeezed out of their settlements in Samaria and Judaea (also called the West Bank), especially around Hebron and East Jerusalem, because of some "peace deal" handing the whole kit and caboodle over to a Palestinian "state", the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel, in their rage and desperation, could ultimately resort to violence. They could mass in their tens of thousands, all armed with machine guns, and led by three huge bulldozers they could march as a great army to the Old City of Jerusalem and go up onto the Temple Mount and completely destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. They could then begin to build the Third Temple and declare the walled Old City of Jerusalem to be a purely ultra-Orthodox "city-state of the True Israel", where the Mosaic law will be the law, and where no non-kosher person or thing will be allowed within Old Jerusalem's "Holy walls".

Besides getting squeezed out of their settlements, something else that could help tip the scales so that the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel will become violent, is the rising up of a false, miracle-working ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" in Israel. He could rise up and declare that "God says that now is the time for us to take religious control of the Holy Temple Mount and rid it of all the vile abominations which the heathen have placed upon it. We must now sanctify it in the name of our God so that we might rebuild His Holy Temple there. Listen, my brethren, fear not the reaction of the heathen when we retake religious control of the Holy Temple Mount. For God Himself is with us. He will protect us perfectly. Have I not shown you His mighty Power working through Me? Fear not any men, but fear only our Mighty God, who now commands us to rebuild His Holy Temple at the place He determined from the time of our father Abraham. Our God gave us back the Temple Mount way back in 1967 C.E. But what have we done with it over the past 40-odd years? Nothing! How can this be? How can we have allowed some merely-secular, so-called 'Israeli' government invented by sinful men to keep us, God's holy servants, from even setting foot back on the Temple Mount? Let us rise up, my brethren! Let us all rise up, in the name of our God, and let us do mighty exploits to the Glory of His Holy Name!" With such rhetoric, accompanied by his working of amazing miracles (cf. Matthew 24:24), a false ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" in Israel could whip up the ultra-Orthodox Jews there into a religious frenzy, so that they will all with great zeal, and without any fear, march in their tens of thousands upon the Temple Mount, and take total control of it, and then rejoice there and dance and sing holy hymns to God "for His great and mighty Victory".

Something else that could help tip the scales with regard to the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is the discovery of the Ark of the Covenant. (It could be found buried under an ancient ruined fort in the desert east of Jerusalem.) The ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel could see the discovery of the Ark of the Covenant as "an unmistakable sign from God that now is the time for us to rebuild His Holy Temple".

A Third Temple could be built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem during the coming tribulation (Revelation 11:1), and the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices could be restarted in front of it, by the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel. But then the Antichrist could attack and defeat them and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22). Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26, Daniel 11:23) permitting them to keep the Temple and continue to perform the sacrifices for at least seven more years (Daniel 9:27), so long as they give up the outer court of the Temple (Revelation 11:2) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. But then, only two or three years after making the seven-year treaty, the Antichrist could break the treaty, attack the Temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, and place the abomination of desolation in the holy place of the Temple (Daniel 9:27, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself in the Temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36).

---

If the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel succeed in building a Third Temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, it could be seen by God as a valid temple, just as the Second Temple building in Jerusalem was seen by God as a valid temple, even at the time of Jesus' first coming (Matthew 23:21) and even at the time of the early church (Luke 24:53), a temple building co-existing as the temple of God alongside the temple of Jesus' individual human body (John 2:21), and alongside the temple of every Christian's individual human body (1 Corinthians 6:19), and alongside the temple of the church as a whole (Ephesians 2:21), and alongside the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19).

For the ultra-Orthodox Jews would build a Third Temple, and would perform animal sacrifices before it, under the auspices of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which in itself remains holy before God (Romans 7:12); that's why he still keeps an ark of the Old Covenant in his temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19). This isn't to say that the (Jesus Christ rejecting) motives of the ultra-Orthodox Jews would be holy before God, but that a Mosaic Third Temple in itself and Mosaic animal sacrifices in themselves would be holy before God because the Mosaic law in itself remains holy before God (Romans 7:12), even though its letter is no longer meant to be practiced by people (Romans 7:6) because the New Covenant has been inaugurated by Jesus Christ and his once-for-all-time sacrifice on the Cross for all of our sins (Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28, 2 Corinthians 3:6-18).

(Continued)
 
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mkgal1

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Yes; God's Shekinah glory left Solomons Temple and Ezekiel saw it.
The Second Temple never had the Shekinah glory.
Now, it is we Christians who represent the Temple on earth. 1 Corinthians 3:16
I absolutely agree! And you bring out an important point when you posted that the Second Temple never had the Shekinah glory.

But a new Temple will be built by the Lord's people, Zechariah 6:15, and the Glory of God will come again into it. Ezekiel 43:1-9. Verse 10 onwards, describes the details of its construction and use.
Do NOT think that the Israelites of verse 10 refers to Jews only. We Christians ARE the Israelites of God, the Overcomers for Him and the Victorious ones.
A new Temple WAS built (and you just described it - Jesus was that temple, the BRANCH described in Zechariah).

To place Zechariah in context - it was written from 520-518 BC (during which, the Second Temple was being built).

Timeline:

586 BCE - Babylonian Forces Destroy Jerusalem and Demolish First Temple
  • Persian Period (539-322 BCE)
    • 539 BCE - Persian Ruler Cyrus the Great Conquers Babylonian Empire, Including Jerusalem
    • 516 BCE - Cyrus Permits Jews in Bablyonian Exile to Return to Jerusalem; Second Temple Built
    • 445-425 BCE - Nehemiah the Prophet Rebuilds the Walls of Jerusalem; City Confined to Eastern Hill
    ~ Timeline for the History of Jerusalem (4500 BCE-Present)



    Zechariah 6:11-15
    ~ Take silver and gold and make a crown.
    Place it on the head of the high priest Joshua, Jehozadak’s son.
    Say to him,
    “The Lord of heavenly forces proclaims:
    Here is a man.
    His name is Branch, and he will branch out from his place;
    he will build the Lord’s temple.
    He will build the Lord’s temple.
    He will be majestic;
    he will sit and rule on his throne.
    There will be a priest on his throne,
    and the two of them will share a peaceable plan
    .
    The crown will be a memorial in the Lord’s temple
    for Helem, Tobijah, Jedaiah, and for Hen, Zephaniah’s son.
    People from far away will come and build the Lord’s temple
    so you might know that the Lord of heavenly forces has sent me to you.
    It will happen if you truly obey the voice of the Lord your God.”





    John 2:19
    ~ Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.
 
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keras

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A new Temple WAS built (and you just described it - Jesus was that temple, the BRANCH described in Zechariah).
Yes; Spiritually, as we are during this Church age.
But there has to be a new physical Temple for the AC to desecrate. 2 Thess 2:4 and John measures it in Revelation 11:1.
Denying the truth of a new Temple , is to ignore the truth of many prophesies.
 
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mkgal1

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But there has to be a new physical Temple for the AC to desecrate. 2 Thess 2:4 and John measures it in Revelation 11:1.
There WAS a physical second temple (Herod's) that was desecrated in several ways, but this is likely to be the fulfillment of 2 Thess 2:4:

Josephus says that Titus entered the Holy of Holies with his generals in A.D. 70. 1 Shortly thereafter, Titus was worshipped in the Temple in A.D. 70 as was customary of someone declared imperator in fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:4: “He sets Himself up in God’s Temple proclaiming Himself to be God.” Josephus writes, “And now the Romans . . . brought their ensigns to the temple and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator.”2 A metallic image of Vespasian and Titus was also worshipped at that time. The image of Vespasian and Titus was found on the ensign called the numina legionum which was a large coin-shaped bust or image of the emperor and his favorites (i.e. Titus) held aloft on a pole. ~ Source
Denying the truth of a new Temple , is to ignore the truth of many prophesies.
Likewise - denying the completed fulfillment of God's prophecies is to deny His sovereignty and power (in my opinion :) ).
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Yes; Spiritually, as we are during this Church age.
But there has to be a new physical Temple for the AC to desecrate. 2 Thess 2:4 and John measures it in Revelation 11:1.
Denying the truth of a new Temple , is to ignore the truth of many prophesies.
keras.
I have already shown you it is the 1st century Sanctuary being measured..

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:1
And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
And His Disciples approached Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple.
Mark 13:1

And He going forth out of the Temple,
Luke 21:5
and of some saying concerning the Temple,

Luke 21:24
“And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

The Temple is not being measured here!!!!! Only the Sanctuary within it.
Study on this.........

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary<3485> of the God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it

The court/fold is outside the Sanctuary and contained the court of the Priests, the water laver and altar of Sacrifice.
All of this is shown being cast outside of the Temple.


2 and the Court/fold<833>[water lavar/Altar of Sacrifice/court of Priests], without of the Sanctuary, be casting-out!<1544> out-side<1854>, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations and the holy City they shall be trampling<3961> forty two months.
============================================
The word #833 is also associated with the High Priest in these 2 verses:

Matthew 26:3
Then were gathered together the Chief-priests and the Scribes, and the Elders of the people to the court/fold<833> of the Chief-priest who was called Caiaphas [Revelation 11:2]

Mark 14:54
and the Peter from afar follows to him till within into the court/fold<833> of the Chief-priest and he was together-sitting with the officers and warming to the light
 
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keras

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keras.
I have already shown you it is the 1st century Sanctuary being measured..
And I have already rejected that historically unsustainable notion.
Revelation 11:1-13
When did the 42 months take place?
Where and who were the 2 Witnesses?
There has been no earthquake in Jerusalem that killed 7000 people yet.

Your preterist theory is false, Bible prophecy will come to pass; all in God's good timing.
 
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mkgal1

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When did the 42 months take place?
One answer to that is from this explanation:

Vespasian and Titus’ military campaign lasted 42 months during which “foreign” rebels overran and seized control of Jerusalem, we can see how these “Gentiles” “trampled the Holy City” for “42 months.” ~ Source
Where and who were the 2 Witnesses?

One possible theory from the same source mentioned above: "The Fact that the Two Witnesses are depicted as Two Lampstands and Two Olive Trees also points to Christ Who is the Sole Embodiment of the Church, the Body of Christ."

There has been no earthquake in Jerusalem that killed 7000 people yet.
Where do you see that's necessary to consider these prophecies fulfilled?
 
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keras

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Vespasian and Titus’ military campaign lasted 42 months during which “foreign” rebels overran and seized control of Jerusalem, we can see how these “Gentiles” “trampled the Holy City” for “42 months.” ~ Source
Actually the Gentiles have trampled the Temple mount for nearly 2000 years.
But during the final 42 months before Jesus Returns, the Anti-Christ and his cohorts will do that to the new Temple in Jerusalem.
From the same source mentioned above: "The Fact that the Two Witnesses are depicted as Two Lampstands and Two Olive Trees also points to Christ Who is the Sole Embodiment of the Church, the Body of Christ."
Jesus and the Body of the Church are as ONE.
Your preterist source makes an anomaly, says there is 2 metaphors of pairs, that make the 'sole embodiment of the Church. Very confusing!
Where do you see that's necessary to consider these prophecies fulfilled?
What I see as necessary, is to read and understand God's plan for His people in the last days.
The prophecy of Revelation 11:13, is a plainly stated factual event that remains to be fulfilled. Thinking otherwise, is to denigrate the Bible and it discredits you.
 
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mkgal1

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Actually the Gentiles have trampled the Temple mount for nearly 2000 years.
But during the final 42 months before Jesus Returns, the Anti-Christ and his cohorts will do that to the new Temple in Jerusalem.
You'd asked about when the 42 months took place and I gave you an answer (Vespasian and Titus’ military campaign lasted 42 months during which “foreign” rebels overran and seized control of Jerusalem, we can see how these “Gentiles” “trampled the Holy City” for “42 months.” ) - and you dismiss it with this? It's hardly "the Temple mount" with no more of Herod's Temple left (I realize that's the modern term that's used - but it's hardly appropriate in context, IMO).

There's NO reason for a third Temple (and, certainly, Jesus won't have a thing to do with such a grievous offense to His work on the cross).
 
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mkgal1

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Where and who were the 2 Witnesses?

F. W. Farrar answers that question with this:

F.W. Farrar said:
These questions have never been satisfactorily answered, and perhaps never will be. We must be content to leave them in the half-light in which the uncertainty of nineteen Christian centuries has left them hitherto. There are no two writers of any importance who even approximately agree in the interpretation of the symbols... Every interpretation seems to be beset with insuperable difficulties. No one school of commentators has been more successful than its rivals...

Personally, I haven't arrived at an opinion. There are multiple theories on who the two were. Some say they were James and Peter.....others believe they were unnamed prophets (as just a couple of examples). I do believe they were actual people and not metaphors (right now, anyway). I AM convinced, if they were actual people, then they were prophesying just prior to John's receiving of the Revelation (based on the grammar) and I believe they died in the Jewish Revolts (or at least at that time). The fact these two are called witnesses (v. 3) and prophets (v. 10) goes along with previous use of those terms applying to actual humans. Witnesses everywhere elsewhere in Revelation are individual humans (1:2,5; 3:14; 20:4) as are prophets (10:7; 11:18; 16:6,13; 18:20,24; 19:20; 20:10; 22:6,9). Likewise, the image of “two olive trees” (v. 4) comes from Zechariah 4:14 and refers to two literal humans. The two witnesses are also likened to Elijah and Moses in verses 5-6, people who were also human prophets.​
 
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There's NO reason for a third Temple (and, certainly, Jesus won't have a thing to do with such a grievous offense to His work on the cross).
There will be a new Temple, many prophesies prove this. Isaiah 56:1-8, 2 Thess 2:4, Rev 11:1, Ezekiel 43:1-27, +
But the main proof, is the God is unchanging, Malachi 3:6. He wanted an earthly Temple twice before and He will have one in the end times.
This is also proved by Revelation 21-22, where when God comes to dwell with Mankind on earth, a Temple will be no longer required then. It is before then!

So your belief is wrong. What else do you believe that is error?
 
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