If you keep sinning after you are saved are you still saved?

Grip Docility

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Anyone who says they are flawless/perfect now that they are saved, it is said that they will be fooled the most when they stand before God. Pride, arrogance...etc are pretty big things in christians who think they are "holier than thou". The bigger they are, the harder they fall. Even the bible says He will knock you down when you become very prideful. This is also why the bible talks of humility/humbleness. I myself when I talk to others NEVEr make myself out to be perfect. They are even free to check out my pasts posts on here to see things I struggle with.



Oh no, they are indeed equal. All sin is equal. Granted sometimes we try to place other sins above other ones. Like we tend to fight tooth and nail about LGBT stuff, but overlook things like additions.


I've always said Jesus Himself nearly sinned. He nearly gave into things. So if Jesus almost stumbled, we pretty much have no chance of being "perfect". Again, not that we should use it as an excuse to sin. Because if we use it as an excuse, then we may be seeing a fate we did not expect when we stand before God.

Luke 22:42

And... He never stumbled or had it in His heart to disobey. He did what we can’t.

He maintained His will in surrender to the Father without falter.

:oldthumbsup:
 
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d taylor

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I see a lot of people who believe not until they die. Will they know if they have eternal life. I guess they are waiting to see if they were able to be sin free in their lives, after believing in Christ or making Christ lord of their life or how ever they say it.
 
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Grip Docility

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I see a lot of people who believe not until they die. Will they know if they have eternal life. I guess they are waiting to see if they were able to be sin free in their lives, after believing in Christ or making Christ lord of their life or how ever they say it.

I guess the trick is to hope to die when a person has not sinned for that day?

Is there a contractual agreement and failure to repent clause?

This seems more complicated than a legal contract.

IDK
 
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marineimaging

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If you keep sinning after yoluve been saved are you still saved? Jesus promises in John 6:37-40 to not lose one single believer but do believers continue to sin after they've been saved? Like for example say you're caught in the same set of sins are you still saved? Even if you cannot stop doing those same sins over and over again? Like say you like to use Christs name in vain a lot or if you swear a lot or if you're stuck in one particular sin is that person still given to Jesus by God the Father and eternally secure?
Read about David. Did he sin and God still not forget him? Did Paul sin? According to a lot of people if Paul disobeyed the laws of man then he sinned as we are instructed to obey.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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If I live to be 100, that is another 35 years... on the last day of my life when it is finally over... I will be confessing my sin, being forgiven, and being cleansed of all unrighteousness.
That is the normal Christian life.
 
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And Im guessing heresy is ok with you since we all sin and it is not possible to stop?

It would be wiser to be well versed in truth before becoming well versed in Heresy.
Tell me when you are able to keep from thinking one evil thought all this week, or that you are always, without fail, loving God with all your heart, mind and strength, and loving everyone else in the world as you would have them love you.
 
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ok ... I'll go a step further ... how about you go a few steps further as well

State of the Dead


Psalm 90:3-6

You turn man back into dust And say, "Return, O children of men." For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night. You have swept them away like a flood, they fall asleep; In the morning they are like grass which sprouts anew.

Job 7:21

"Why then do You not pardon my transgression And take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10-12

"But man dies and lies prostrate Man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dried up, So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 13:3

Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

Daniel 12:2

"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 9:24

He (Jesus) said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.

Mark 5:39

And entering in, He said to them, "Why make a commotion and weep? The child has not died, but is asleep."

Luke 8:52-53

Now they were all weeping and lamenting for her; but He said, "Stop weeping, for she has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him, knowing that she had died.

1 Kings 2:10

Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.

Deuteronomy 31:16

The LORD said to Moses, "Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them.

2 Samuel 7:12

"When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom.

1 Kings 11:43

And Solomon slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of his father David, and his son Rehoboam reigned in his place.

1 Kings 14:20

The time that Jeroboam reigned was twenty-two years; and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his place.

1 Kings 16:6

And Baasha slept with his fathers and was buried in Tirzah, and Elah his son became king in his place.

1 Kings 22:50

And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers and was buried with his fathers in the city of his father David, and Jehoram his son became king in his place.

2 Kings 14:16

So Jehoash slept with his fathers and was buried in Samaria with the kings of Israel; and Jeroboam his son became king in his place.

2 Kings 15:7

And Azariah slept with his fathers, and they buried him with his fathers in the city of David, and Jotham his son became king in his place.

2 Kings 16:20

So Ahaz slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David; and his son Hezekiah reigned in his place.

2 Kings 20:21

So Hezekiah slept with his fathers, and Manasseh his son became king in his place.

2 Kings 21:18

And Manasseh slept with his fathers and was buried in the garden of his own house, in the garden of Uzza, and Amon his son became king in his place.

Revelation 14:13

And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."


John 11:11-14

This He (Jesus) said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep." The disciples then said to Him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover." Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.

Acts 7:60

Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:6

After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;

John 5:28-29

"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Job 14:13-15

"Oh that You would hide me in Sheol, That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You, That You would set a limit for me and remember me! "If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my struggle I will wait Until my change comes. "You will call, and I will answer You; You will long for the work of Your hands.

Psalm 17:15

As for me, I shall behold Your face in righteousness; I will be satisfied with Your likeness when I awake.

Isaiah 26:19

Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.


1 Corinthians 15:20

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Jeremiah 51:57

"I will make her princes and her wise men drunk, Her governors, her prefects and her mighty men, That they may sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake up," Declares the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts.


Psalm 7:3-5

O LORD my God, if I have done this, If there is injustice in my hands, If I have rewarded evil to my friend, Or have plundered him who without cause was my adversary, Let the enemy pursue my soul and overtake it; And let him trample my life down to the ground And lay my glory in the dust. Selah.

Psalm 76:5

The stouthearted were plundered, They sank into sleep; And none of the warriors could use his hands.

Jeremiah 51:39

"When they become heated up, I will serve them their banquet And make them drunk, that they may become jubilant And may sleep a perpetual sleep And not wake up," declares the LORD.

***

1 Peter 3:18-20 -
The expression “flesh” talks about the earthly sphere of Jesus’ existence while the expression “spirit” refers to his heavenly dimension.

1 John 3

2 Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.

Couple this with Jesus not correcting the disciples when they feared He was a Spirit, when He was walking on water

This is pure conjecture on your part ... go with what is written rather than what is not written.

Sign of Jonah

Matthew 12

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

It's comparing the 3 days and 3 nights timeframe - two different places, not the same place ... Jonah in the belly of a fish ... Jesus in the heart of the earth

I will be clear... Souls are not "destroyed" Annihilation/or eternal Torment (Pick your poison)... until final judgment that declares the wicked, wicked, and some that died outside of Christ saved.

This statement is unclear ... however

There are 2 resurrections, the first of the saved (those in the grave, and those living at the time. Paul sums it up here:

1 Thessalonians 4

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The saved will be changed

1st Corinthians 15

40There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the splendor of the heavenly bodies is of one degree, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is of another.

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Later, after the 2nd resurrection of the condemned, yeah them and everything is destroyed.

People ask the question What kind of a loving God would burn people in hell "forever"? Fact is, He don't. This is making God out to be a sadistic terrorist. totally contrary to His loving nature/character.

Psalm 1:6 “But the way of the ungodly shall perish”

If one believes in eternal conscious hell, they don’t believe the ungodly perish at all– but live forever (immortal in hell).

Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish… they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.”

If one believes in eternal conscious hell, they don’t believe the wicked will be “consumed.” Instead, they believe the wicked are tortured and never consumed.

Psalm 69:28 says that the wicked are “blotted out of the book of the living.”

This continues the consistency of scripture which tells us the wicked die– not that they are eternally living in a conscious hell.

Ps. 34:16, 21 “evil brings death to the wicked.”

Of course, if one believes in eternal hell, one doesn’t believe that evil brings death at all, but brings eternal life– in hell.

Psalm 92:7 “… shall be destroyed forever.”

If one believes in eternal conscious hell, they don’t believe those who are lost are “destroyed” but again, that they live forever ... tortured in hell.

Prov. 24:20 “the lamp of the wicked will be snuffed out.”

To believe in eternal conscious hell means one believes they will not be snuffed out at all.

Dan. 2:35 “the wind swept them away without leaving a trace.”

This continues the theme of totally destroyed– there’s not a trace of the wicked. This is the opposite of eternal life in hell.

Isa. 1:28, 30–31 “rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.”

Obadiah 1:16 It will be as if the evil “had never been.“

This speaks to ceasing to exist– not eternal life in hell. In the traditional hell it will not be “as if they had never been” because they’ll live eternally and still “be.”

Mal 4:1 “All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.”

Here God is quoted directly– the evildoers are destroyed like straw thrown into the fire, and nothing is left. This shows total annihilation (they no longer exist). To believe in eternal hell, one would have to argue that God was mistaken and that they aren’t destroyed in the fire at all– but live forever in the fire without being consumed, which is the exact opposite of what God claimed.

God Shows, hell (burning forever) is NOT in the Old Testament. Instead, they believed that the wicked are destroyed– that they die and do not get resurrected to eternal life. This is the testimony of the whole of scripture. To believe in eternal conscious hell is to really be at odds with the terminology we see scripture use. These same claims of annihilation and destruction continue in the New Testament:

Matthew 10:28 “Rather, fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Here Jesus himself teaches against hell– saying that those who are lost experience the death of their soul. If one believes in eternal conscious hell, they believe Jesus was wrong on this point, and that souls don’t die at all, but will live forever in hell.

John 3:16 “…whosoever believeth in him should not perish”

Again, to believe in hell, one must believe Jesus was wrong in John 3:16 and that people don’t “perish” at all, but live forever in hell.

Matthew 7:13: “broad is the road that leads to destruction“

Jesus in his warnings continues with the repetitive testimony of scripture: the consequence of rejecting reconciliation with God is destruction– not everlasting life in torment.

Jesus on a variety of occasions uses the metaphor of fire that consumes not tortures: Matthew 7:19; Matthew 13:40; John 15:6

Philippians 3:19 “whose end is destruction…“

There’s that word again, “destroyed" (destruction). Those who believe in eternal hell don’t believe one is destroyed in hell, but lives there forever .... being tortured by a loving God?

2 Thessalonians 1:9 “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction (destroyed) ”

The Bible is getting clear that the consequence of rejecting God is destruction, not eternal life in hell.

1 Cor 3:17: “God will destroy that person”

There’s that word again that doesn’t mean tortured in hell, but just means what it says– destroyed.

2 Cor 2:15-16: “those that perish“

Again, if Paul meant hell, he should have said it– seems like everyone talks about perishing, being destroyed– but doesn’t talk about hell.

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death..“

It’s perishing, dying, being destroyed.. the opposite of eternal life in hell.

Hebrews 10:39 “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”

Another version of the same term… destroyed.

James 4:12a “There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.”

We are to understand to be “destroyed” is the natural consequence…

2 Peter 2:3: “Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.”

Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death…”

Those who believe in eternal conscious hell don’t believe in the second death– they believe everyone is immortal, and that some will live forever in hell. Revelation 20:14 is clear that they die– they don’t live forever in hell at all.

A soul is a person ... it's not something you possess .... it's what you are
a living being.

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being" (Gen. 2:7, NKJV).

Scripture gives us a simple equation for understanding the nature of humans:
Body (dust of the ground; the earth's elements) plus
Breath of life ("spirit" of life from God) equals
A living person (a soul).

Nowhere does the Bible speak of the soul as an immortal entity capable of living apart from our body. Neither does it speak of the spirit as an entity which can exist independent of our physical nature. We are not made of independent parts temporarily connected, but of body, soul, and spirit in one indivisible whole.

There is NOTHING immortal about us .... yet ;o)

1st Timothy 6

16 He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Sorry for the long post .... look forward to your take on all these verses
All that could be off topic.
 
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You have mistaken that I lean towards "ECT"... I divided Sheol from the Lake of fire and specified (Pick your poison)...

Okay... I'll go a step further....

1 Thessalonians 5:23

Body, Mind and Soul...

Ecclesiastes 12:7

The spirit/Pneuma Returns to God, Who gave it.
The body returns to dust...

What of the SOUL?

By admission, you noted the Soul is not discussed, and it is speculative to say it goes on... though God Incarnate, Himself, specifically said it had to be "destroyed".

How about Paul?

2 Corinthians 5:1-8

Back to Jonah...

1 Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from inside the fish:
2 I called to the Lord in my distress, and He answered me. I cried out for help in the belly of Sheol; You heard my voice.
3 You threw me into the depths, into the heart of the seas, and the current overcame me. All Your breakers and Your billows swept over me.
4 But I said: I have been banished from Your sight, yet I will look once more toward Your holy temple.
5 The waters engulfed me up to the neck; the watery depths overcame me; seaweed was wrapped around my head.
6 I sank to the foundations of the mountains; the earth with its prison bars closed behind me forever! But You raised my life from the Pit, Lord my God!
7 As my life was fading away, I remembered the Lord. My prayer came to You, to Your holy temple.

Sheol:
7585. sheol
Strong's Concordance
sheol: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
Original Word: שְׁאוֹל
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: sheol
Phonetic Spelling: (sheh-ole')
Definition: underworld (place to which people descend at death)

But wait! There's more... ;)

Matthew 12:39 {worth clicking on as Jesus said it}

Can you explain Matthew 12:39 and it's meaning?

Luke 16:22-23 ... and know that this is not Hell... but a distinct place that is known as what it is spoken as.

Pair that with Hebrews 11:13

Still not convinced?

1 the underworld, תַּחְתִּית ׳שׁ Deuteronomy 32:22, מִתַּחַתIsaiah 14:9; מִ֑טָּה ׳מִשּׁ Proverbs 15:24; "" מָוֶת Proverbs 5:5; Proverbs 7:27; Songs 8:6; Psalm 89:49; whither men descend at death, Genesis 37:35 (E), Genesis 42:38; Genesis 44:29,31 (J), 1 Samuel 2:6; 1 Kings 2:6,9; Job 7:9; Job 21:13; Isaiah 14:11,15; Psalm 88:4, and Korah and associates go down alive by ׳יs judgment, Numbers 16:30,33 (J), compare Psalm 55:16; under mountains and sea Job 26:6 (compare Job 26:5), ׳בֶּטֶן שׁJonah 2:3 (compare Jonah 2:7); with bars Job 17:16 (si vera 1.: see ᵐ5 Du); ׳מִּי שׁ Psalm 141:7; ׳שַׁעֲרֵי שׁ Isaiah 38:10; personified Isaiah 28:15,18 ("" מות). as insatiable monster Isaiah 5:14; Habakkuk 2:5; Proverbs 1:12; Proverbs 27:20; Proverbs 30:16; as said (figurative) to have snares, ׳חֶבְלֵי שׁPsalm 18:6 = 2 Samuel 22:6 compare ׳מְצָרֵי שׁ Psalm 116:3; opposed to (height of) שָׁמַיִם Amos 9:2; Job 11:8; Psalm 139:8+ (opposed to לְמָ֑עְלָה) Isaiah 7:11 (see above); dark, gloomy, without return Job 17:13 (compare Job 17:16; Job 7:9; Job 10:21; Job 16:22; all being alike Job 3:17-19; Job 21:23-26 ); without work or knowledge or wisdom according to Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10 (compare Job 14:21, and see רְפָאִיםbelow רפה; yet compare Isaiah 14:9f.).
Still off topic.
 
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And you still haven’t answered the question
Actually the Calvinist doctrine of justification by faith and progressive sanctification is very simple and straightforward and is closest to reflecting what Paul is talking about. This is come about by many godly, faithful, and Bible-loving Reformed and Puritan divines who lived closer to God and spent more time in the Word and in prayer than I could dream about! These ones who believe in instant sanctification by faith is like saying, "Everyone is out of step except you and me, and I'm not sure about you!"
 
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d taylor

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A believer receiving eternal life (as many like to say, salvation) is not contingent on what we do before or even after we have been given eternal life (saved).

Because we are counted righteous by what Jesus did (His death and resurrection). Took away the sin of the world.

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

The Messiah was successful in His task, He did not fail.

Now for the believer who continues in sin.
Their actions as Christians do have consequences, both here and in eternity in heaven.

God requires that we discipline those in the church who continue in a life of sin.

1 Corinthians 5 speaks about a believer that is living in sin and Paul states what to do with this person and not once does Paul state that this person will loose their salvation or was never a true believer to began with. Paul states to put this person out of the church, to turn him over to satan.

So ultimately, if they refuse to stop sinning, we are to put them out of the church.

This is for the destruction of their flesh, not that they would lose their salvation and some may not repent and be restored. The unrepentant may loose their physical life on earth (Ananias and Sapphira),.

But disciplining believers with the ultimate goal of restoring them to fellowship (as Jesus did with Peter). Sadly, this is rarely done in today’s church.

We also face consequences in heaven, for what we do here on earth as believers. Again, our salvation is not in question, but the level of rewards and position we will receive in heaven depend on how we serve God while on earth.
 
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eleos1954

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You have mistaken that I lean towards "ECT"... I divided Sheol from the Lake of fire and specified (Pick your poison)...

Okay... I'll go a step further....

1 Thessalonians 5:23

Body, Mind and Soul...

Ecclesiastes 12:7

The spirit/Pneuma Returns to God, Who gave it.
The body returns to dust...

What of the SOUL?

By admission, you noted the Soul is not discussed, and it is speculative to say it goes on... though God Incarnate, Himself, specifically said it had to be "destroyed".

How about Paul?

2 Corinthians 5:1-8

Back to Jonah...

1 Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from inside the fish:
2 I called to the Lord in my distress, and He answered me. I cried out for help in the belly of Sheol; You heard my voice.
3 You threw me into the depths, into the heart of the seas, and the current overcame me. All Your breakers and Your billows swept over me.
4 But I said: I have been banished from Your sight, yet I will look once more toward Your holy temple.
5 The waters engulfed me up to the neck; the watery depths overcame me; seaweed was wrapped around my head.
6 I sank to the foundations of the mountains; the earth with its prison bars closed behind me forever! But You raised my life from the Pit, Lord my God!
7 As my life was fading away, I remembered the Lord. My prayer came to You, to Your holy temple.

Sheol:
7585. sheol
Strong's Concordance
sheol: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
Original Word: שְׁאוֹל
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: sheol
Phonetic Spelling: (sheh-ole')
Definition: underworld (place to which people descend at death)

But wait! There's more... ;)

Matthew 12:39 {worth clicking on as Jesus said it}

Can you explain Matthew 12:39 and it's meaning?

Luke 16:22-23 ... and know that this is not Hell... but a distinct place that is known as what it is spoken as.

Pair that with Hebrews 11:13

Still not convinced?

1 the underworld, תַּחְתִּית ׳שׁ Deuteronomy 32:22, מִתַּחַתIsaiah 14:9; מִ֑טָּה ׳מִשּׁ Proverbs 15:24; "" מָוֶת Proverbs 5:5; Proverbs 7:27; Songs 8:6; Psalm 89:49; whither men descend at death, Genesis 37:35 (E), Genesis 42:38; Genesis 44:29,31 (J), 1 Samuel 2:6; 1 Kings 2:6,9; Job 7:9; Job 21:13; Isaiah 14:11,15; Psalm 88:4, and Korah and associates go down alive by ׳יs judgment, Numbers 16:30,33 (J), compare Psalm 55:16; under mountains and sea Job 26:6 (compare Job 26:5), ׳בֶּטֶן שׁJonah 2:3 (compare Jonah 2:7); with bars Job 17:16 (si vera 1.: see ᵐ5 Du); ׳מִּי שׁ Psalm 141:7; ׳שַׁעֲרֵי שׁ Isaiah 38:10; personified Isaiah 28:15,18 ("" מות). as insatiable monster Isaiah 5:14; Habakkuk 2:5; Proverbs 1:12; Proverbs 27:20; Proverbs 30:16; as said (figurative) to have snares, ׳חֶבְלֵי שׁPsalm 18:6 = 2 Samuel 22:6 compare ׳מְצָרֵי שׁ Psalm 116:3; opposed to (height of) שָׁמַיִם Amos 9:2; Job 11:8; Psalm 139:8+ (opposed to לְמָ֑עְלָה) Isaiah 7:11 (see above); dark, gloomy, without return Job 17:13 (compare Job 17:16; Job 7:9; Job 10:21; Job 16:22; all being alike Job 3:17-19; Job 21:23-26 ); without work or knowledge or wisdom according to Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10 (compare Job 14:21, and see רְפָאִיםbelow רפה; yet compare Isaiah 14:9f.).

Sheol

When the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek in ancient Alexandria around 200 BC, the word "Hades" (the Greek underworld) was substituted for Sheol. This is reflected in the New Testament where Hades is both the underworld of the dead and the personification of it.

She’ol (/ˈʃiːoʊl/ SHEE-ohl, /-əl/; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šəʾōl), in the Hebrew Bible, is a place of darkness to which all the dead go, both the righteous and the unrighteous, regardless of the moral choices made in life, a place of stillness and darkness cut off from life but not God because as per written in Book of Psalm 139:8 "If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there."

And ... neither are eternally dead yet.... that's why Jesus himself refers to it as sleep ..... because He has the power of resurrection and both the saved and the unsaved will be woken from their sleep in the 1st and 2nd resurrections, just like he did with Lazarus ... I go to wake him up.

But while they are asleep, both awaiting resurrection, they don't know anything.

Ecclesiastes 9

5For the living know that they will die (earthly death), but the dead (from earthly death) know nothing. They have no further reward, because the memory of them is forgotten.

You don't think Jesus knew the difference between sleep (awaiting resurrection) and death?

John 11

12His disciples replied, “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get better.” 13They thought that Jesus was talking about actual sleep, but He was speaking about the death of Lazarus.

14So Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

There are no in-between places. You're either alive on earth or asleep in the grave awaiting for resurrection.
 
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Grip Docility

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Sheol

When the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek in ancient Alexandria around 200 BC, the word "Hades" (the Greek underworld) was substituted for Sheol. This is reflected in the New Testament where Hades is both the underworld of the dead and the personification of it.

She’ol (/ˈʃiːoʊl/ SHEE-ohl, /-əl/; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šəʾōl), in the Hebrew Bible, is a place of darkness to which all the dead go, both the righteous and the unrighteous, regardless of the moral choices made in life, a place of stillness and darkness cut off from life but not God because as per written in Book of Psalm 139:8 "If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there."

And ... neither are eternally dead yet.... that's why Jesus himself refers to it as sleep ..... because He has the power of resurrection and both the saved and the unsaved will be woken from their sleep in the 1st and 2nd resurrections, just like he did with Lazarus ... I go to wake him up.

But while they are asleep, both awaiting resurrection, they don't know anything.

Ecclesiastes 9

5For the living know that they will die (earthly death), but the dead (from earthly death) know nothing. They have no further reward, because the memory of them is forgotten.

You don't think Jesus knew the difference between sleep (awaiting resurrection) and death?

John 11

12His disciples replied, “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get better.” 13They thought that Jesus was talking about actual sleep, but He was speaking about the death of Lazarus.

14So Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

There are no in-between places. You're either alive on earth or asleep in the grave awaiting for resurrection.

We’re off topic. Start an OP if you would like to continue. Drop my name. :)
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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I guess the trick is to hope to die when a person has not sinned for that day?

Is there a contractual agreement and failure to repent clause?

This seems more complicated than a legal contract.

IDK
I have always wondered if, when Jesus comes again, He might find me sitting on the toilet! Now, that would be embarrassing! :)

Or how about rising straight off the toilet in the rapture? Just imagine flying up through the air to meet the Lord with no pants on not have any opportunity to wipe my bottom with the toilet tissue!
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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I hang my head in forum shame. I will no longer be off topic.

Though, technically a post about being off topic is off topic. :p

I guess that finding your answer to my off topic post about your post being off topic, funny, would be even more off topic! :)
 
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Kenny'sID

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A believer receiving eternal life (as many like to say, salvation) is not contingent on what we do before or even after we have been given eternal life (saved).

Of course it's contingent upon what we do after. Do the following all you like without repentance and see what happens. Actually, you don't have to wait to see what happens, it tells us right there in the scripture so, don't be deceived as you apparently have been:

1 Cor 6:9-10
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were.

If I'm wrong or the scripture is wrong, please explain how we can actually do that which the bible clearly says we cannot, and still inherit the Kingdom of God? Because I'm just not seeing it.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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A believer receiving eternal life (as many like to say, salvation) is not contingent on what we do before or even after we have been given eternal life (saved).

Because we are counted righteous by what Jesus did (His death and resurrection). Took away the sin of the world.

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

The Messiah was successful in His task, He did not fail.

Now for the believer who continues in sin.
Their actions as Christians do have consequences, both here and in eternity in heaven.

God requires that we discipline those in the church who continue in a life of sin.

1 Corinthians 5 speaks about a believer that is living in sin and Paul states what to do with this person and not once does Paul state that this person will loose their salvation or was never a true believer to began with. Paul states to put this person out of the church, to turn him over to satan.

So ultimately, if they refuse to stop sinning, we are to put them out of the church.

This is for the destruction of their flesh, not that they would lose their salvation and some may not repent and be restored. The unrepentant may loose their physical life on earth (Ananias and Sapphira),.

But disciplining believers with the ultimate goal of restoring them to fellowship (as Jesus did with Peter). Sadly, this is rarely done in today’s church.

We also face consequences in heaven, for what we do here on earth as believers. Again, our salvation is not in question, but the level of rewards and position we will receive in heaven depend on how we serve God while on earth.
I got a bit angry and kicked the cat today, so I'd better stay away from church in case I get kicked out!
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Of course it's contingent upon what we do after. Do the following all you like without repentance and see what happens. Actually, you don't have to wait to see what happens, it tells us right there in the scripture so, don't be deceived as you apparently have been:

1 Cor 6:9-10
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were.

If I'm wrong or the scripture is wrong, please explain how we can actually do that which the bible clearly says we cannot, and still inherit the Kingdom of God? Because I'm just not seeing it.
When I got converted, I knew not to do any of those things, because I was taught that if I did those things as my lifestyle, it would mean that my conversion is false.

When I was with my last Charismatic church in the 1970s, one of the elders was caught in a homosexual encounter and arrested by the police. He was disciplined right away and stood down from eldership. When I joined the Anglican church in 1978, the Sunday School superintendent went to live with a widow with six children without getting married first. He was stood down from his role until he got his domestic situation sorted out. As an elder of the Presbyterian church, I knew that we had a policy that anyone admitted into membership had to be a person of good character, in other words, not involved in any of those things you mention.

In all my 50 years of church involvement in Pentecostal, Charismatic, Anglican, Baptist, and Presbyterian churches, I didn't know of anyone, as a full and recognised member, who was involved in any of those things. This was because these churches did not recognise that anyone involved in those works of the flesh as a true and genuine convert to Christ.
 
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bmjackson

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Are you saying you don’t ever sin?

Hi. I would only answer this question if the person asking has already been enlightened regarding the doctrine as disbelief over this first step cannot mean anything but the same regarding my answer. You do not know me face to face so it is impossible for me to prove.
 
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bmjackson

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What you are saying is the heresy of antinomianism - that we are sinless by faith and therefore don't have to work at being holy and living a righteous life, and if we drift into sinful behaviour, we just remain passive and say we are sinless by faith and the way we actually behave doesn't matter.

Dear Oscarr you misunderstand. We must never cease to strive but if we are in Christ, the work is to stay there and it is a strange work in that we have rest, but at the same time constantly resist the temptation of the enemy, so that we can stand firm in whatever our circumstances and never budge from trusting God or become discouraged.

We are to count it all joy whatever befalls us and many many things will befalls us once we reach this state of faith in the FINISHED work of Christ and the cleansing of His blood.

We can however fall and we see that the disciples did on occasion and needed the cleansing again. Peace to you.
 
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