If you keep sinning after you are saved are you still saved?

RaymondG

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Do you always love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength?
I, of my own self, can do nothing...... It is the Father that doeth the work.

Maybe this is where we differ. It seems that you have tried to do these works instead of having the work be done in you..... You should stop working and trying to view the works of others.......because, for man, this is impossible.
 
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Loversofjesus_2018

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If I'm not mistaken, non OSAS has always said we can repent of any sin, but if we live in the sin, either from the time we "say" we are saved, or fall back into it after awhile of true salvation, due to temptation of the world, unrepentant and ongoing sin, that is a serious problem.

That should cover the constant excuse "Well, we all sin, so there ya go, our sin can't keep us from heaven". No, we do not all live in unrepentant sin. Do you now understand or will you all continue to use that clearly deceptive comment/half truth as defense?

You all do realize there are sincere people here looking for the truth, so it's my desire we teach that, I have no other agenda in speaking up. So, in all fairness, if you think what I propose as the truth in the first paragraph there, is not the truth, please explain where I ere?
So what is unrepentant sin? How do you drone that? If you have to repent of the same sin more than once, is that unrepentant even if you ask for forgiveness? No one seems to be able to answer this question for me and I don’t have the answer either. I get a lot of people giving opinions but still going around the question. From what I’m reading people are making it seem like the only ones who aren’t in unrepentant sin are the one who have no idea that what they are doing are wrong. Which I’m having a hard time understanding.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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LOL... I wasn't doing that. I just couldn't remember if you were a Kiwi or an Aussie. I would never lump the two together. I learned that lesson many years ago.
The difference between an Aussie and a Kiwi is the way they are brainwashed. I am not sure if an Aussie has a brain to be washed, and a Kiwi is brain washed by filling up his gumboots with water!
 
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Grip Docility

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If I'm not mistaken, non OSAS has always said we can repent of any sin, but if we live in the sin, either from the time we "say" we are saved, or fall back into it after awhile of true salvation, due to temptation of the world, unrepentant and ongoing sin, that is a serious problem.

That should cover the constant excuse "Well, we all sin, so there ya go, our sin can't keep us from heaven". No, we do not all live in unrepentant sin. Do you now understand or will you all continue to use that clearly deceptive comment/half truth as defense?

You all do realize there are sincere people here looking for the truth, so it's my desire we teach that, I have no other agenda in speaking up. So, in all fairness, if you think what I propose as the truth in the first paragraph there, is not the truth, please explain where I ere?

Kenny, no honest Christian is without sin.

Honesty is your focus... does the Holy Spirit convict us and bring our conscience into deep sensitivity, or harden us enough to deny our human weakness?
 
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Pelegus was almost a source of quotation for me in my studies. What little writings of his exist are duplicitous.

On one hand... he speaks near as boldly as Martin Luther about real sin and real need for Jesus’ Grace. On the other hand, he drives home a pursuit of Carnal Sinlessness.

Augustine isn’t someone I draw from either, because of his early Marcionism, though he recanted and opposed it, later on.

Perhaps it is because of both of them, that I am even further inclined to cling to Scripture and 1 John 2:27, with a discard of all other doctrinal sources.

I’m not going to evaluate your claim, but I would like to know what you make of 1 John 8-10.
Because Arminius was lumped in with the Pelagius' doctrine, he went to some lengths to explain the differences between them. Perhaps the best view of Pelagius is seen in Arminius' works if anyone wants to read through three volumes of 500 pages each. I got through 250 pages of his first volume over two or three days having it read to me by Dreamreader on my iPad. But he is quite analytical and complicated in his explanations and having it read to me goes through the text too quickly to really take it in. One has to read it carefully to get clearly what he is saying.

I decided to find out what Arminius believed about predestination and election, "from the horse's mouth" as it were, rather than accept the different theories about his doctrine. It is usually the dominant view that is preeminent in Christian theology, and Calvinism was dominant in Protestant circles at the time, and so Arminius was criticised and discredited. A lot of what I read in the 250 pages was him countering what he viewed were lies about his doctrine from his opponents.

In actual fact, Arminius was closer to Scripture in his view and lived a more holy life than Calvin, but Calvin had politics on his side and Arminius didn't. In the same way that some Charismatics have gone into excesses to the degree that they have been cultlike, I guess that much Arminian doctrine has gone into excesses by his followers. For example, he definitely did not believe in entire sanctification or sinless perfection at all.

Anyway, that is my view. I stopped reading him after 250 pages. I had better things to read.
 
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Grip Docility

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Because Arminius was lumped in with the Pelagius' doctrine, he went to some lengths to explain the differences between them. Perhaps the best view of Pelagius is seen in Arminius' works if anyone wants to read through three volumes of 500 pages each. I got through 250 pages of his first volume over two or three days having it read to me by Dreamreader on my iPad. But he is quite analytical and complicated in his explanations and having it read to me goes through the text too quickly to really take it in. One has to read it carefully to get clearly what he is saying.

I decided to find out what Arminius believed about predestination and election, "from the horse's mouth" as it were, rather than accept the different theories about his doctrine. It is usually the dominant view that is preeminent in Christian theology, and Calvinism was dominant in Protestant circles at the time, and so Arminius was criticised and discredited. A lot of what I read in the 250 pages was him countering what he viewed were lies about his doctrine from his opponents.

In actual fact, Arminius was closer to Scripture in his view and lived a more holy life than Calvin, but Calvin had politics on his side and Arminius didn't. In the same way that some Charismatics have gone into excesses to the degree that they have been cultlike, I guess that much Arminian doctrine has gone into excesses by his followers. For example, he definitely did not believe in entire sanctification or sinless perfection at all.

Anyway, that is my view. I stopped reading him after 250 pages. I had better things to read.

This is interesting, indeed. There is much wisdom in “History being written by “victors””.
 
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Loversofjesus_2018

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Kenny, no honest Christian is without sin.

Honesty is your focus... does the Holy Spirit convict us and bring our conscience into deep sensitivity, or harden us enough to deny our human weakness?
Why does it seem everyone keeps saying you have to be obedient but you will be disobedient at times. Both of those can’t be true at the same time.
 
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There’s truth. Anyone can ask me to show how you take scripture out of context, and I’ll show them. That’s the truth.
It is interesting that our friend said he would pray for you. It is significant that I don't see anything in Scripture that shows that we can use prayer for God to somehow get another person to change their doctrinal views to suit us. We can ask God to enlighten a sinner so that they can believe the gospel, or strengthen a struggling soul to have a stronger faith in Jesus. If I went to God and said, "I want you to change that person's view to agree with me", He would say, "What is that to you? Follow Jesus."
 
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Grip Docility

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Why does it seem everyone keeps saying you have to be obedient but you will be disobedient at times. Both of those can’t be true at the same time.

No human being in the presence of God can honestly say they obey even close to well and are without sin. (In respects to the flesh)

It takes courage to confess our sins one to another.

One way encourages the body, while the other ties up heavy burdens.

Romans 7 is etched into my soul.
 
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Grip Docility

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It is interesting that our friend said he would pray for you. It is significant that I don't see anything in Scripture that shows that we can use prayer for God to somehow get another person to change their doctrinal views to suit us. We can ask God to enlighten a sinner so that they can believe the gospel, or strengthen a struggling soul to have a stronger faith in Jesus. If I went to God and said, "I want you to change that person's view to agree with me", He would say, "What is that to you? Follow Jesus."

Is it wrong that I wanted to hit the prayer emoji for comical effect on your post?

How humble the prayer emoji in debate. How softly it says... “I’m right and you’re wrong, May Jesus show you my light”.
 
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I’ve done it, and shown how you are wrong. But you have stopped responding. Your non-replies only help to benefit my position with scripture.
When we read through the many posts that good, godly, teachable, Scripture-abiding folk have posted on this thread, there is more than sufficient information that would totally address the issues our friend has raised. It is just that he won't accept them and consider that he could be mistaken.

As I wrote that and remember our very long discussion about Calvinism, the little voice in the back of my head asked, "Are you any better?" Probably not! :)

But our friend has only one string to his guitar and he keeps banging on it repeatedly in the hope that his "correct" view will somehow penetrate our "thick skulls". All that does is gives me a headache!
 
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Would you have us believe that a godly believer is one who struggles with sinfulness?

It is far more dangerous to put one in heaven, who struggles with sinfulness, than to keep one out for the same. As the former breeds complacency, while the latter could possible go on to perfection, in a few cases.
We struggle with in in this life, and this is because we have a new, godly heart. You will find that an unbeliever does not have this struggle with sin, because he is unconverted and has an evil heart that loves to sin. He has no struggle with it. He just relaxes and enjoys it. He can't see anything wrong with sinful behaviour; in fact he doesn't see his behaviour as sinful at all!

So, the struggle against sin is the hallmark of a genuinely converted believer, and that struggle is just for this life. Once he gets to heaven, he has left his sinful body behind, and has been given a new, glorified body, without sin, and so he is clothed appropriately for heaven. He has the correct wedding garment to be part of the spotless bride of Christ.
 
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Are you of the mind that no one can achieve more than you are able to achieve? Is everyone elses ceiling only as high as the one you created for yourself? If you do not play drums, is it now impossible for others to be able to play drums as well?

I find it unwise for one to believe that, just because I have not achieve something, no one can.... And even more unwise to hinder another from trying to achieve levels solely because i am unable to reach them....
I think we need to steer away from observations of a personal nature and veiled accusations. This is not about you or me. The issue is in "the light bulb", separate from us personally, and that is where it should stay.
 
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Hammster

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I, of my own self, can do nothing...... It is the Father that doeth the work.

Maybe this is where we differ. It seems that you have tried to do these works instead of having the work be done in you..... You should stop working and trying to view the works of others.......because, for man, this is impossible.
I wasn’t talking about me. And you didn’t answer the question.
 
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This is what gives the doctrine of entire sanctification a bad name. Yes we can be sinless, and it is only through faith and not by works.

Believing it is a gradual process is works. If it is by faith then it can happen in an instant.
What you are saying is the heresy of antinomianism - that we are sinless by faith and therefore don't have to work at being holy and living a righteous life, and if we drift into sinful behaviour, we just remain passive and say we are sinless by faith and the way we actually behave doesn't matter.
 
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Neostarwcc

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I didn't mean to claim that we can be sinless after salvation but surely a Christian can not LIVE in sin after salvation right? That's mainly what my question is. Like just how much can we sin after salvation to remain saved? I do not believe that a Christian can lose salvation but I do believe that if a Christian sins all the time that there is something wrong there. Because the Holy Spirit is supposed to be working in their lives not only convicting them of their sin but hes also supposed to be working in their lives to make them sin LESS. Am I right?
 
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Oscar, do you believe that if some chooses to sin willfully that they will still be saved? Or, does the fact that they continue to sin willfully show that they may not have been saved to begin with?

Thanks in advance.

Blessings,

Gideon
I'm saying that a genuinely converted believer will fight against the sinfulness of his flesh and therefore will not willfully sin, and will mourn when he sins out of weakness because he is still human and therefore imperfect. In his heart his greatest desire is to be perfectly sanctified - that is his goal and he runs the race to achieve it, even though in this life he will never get there. The finish line for him will be death or rapture, because then he will be in glory and has left his sinful flesh behind.
 
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So the Bible is lying when the Bible states ("Then Samuel said", and God uses demons to bring revelation to people)

Then Samuel said: “So why do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy? 17 And the Lord has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day.
This was one of the very rare times when a person was brought back from Paradise for a special purpose. In this case, God allowed Samuel to come back to pronounce judgment upon Saul. It wasn't a demon, because both the witch and Saul recognised him as Samuel and what Samuel said was totally consistent with what God was saying to Saul all along concerning his disobedience. If it were a demon, it would have told him that everything was going to be okay and that Saul was not going to be judged by God.
 
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Romans 2:5

But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

“If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:14
If you've had evil thoughts this week, you'd better quote those Scriptures to yourself! :)
 
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I'm saying that a genuinely converted believer will fight against the sinfulness of his flesh and therefore will not willfully sin, and will mourn when he sins out of weakness because he is still human and therefore imperfect. In his heart his greatest desire is to be perfectly sanctified - that is his goal and he runs the race to achieve it, even though in this life he will never get there. The finish line for him will be death or rapture, because then he will be in glory and has left his sinful flesh behind.
This was a great answer my friend. I believe God has more for us but with that mentality you shared, he or she is sure to receive all they need from God to walk in holiness and righteousness all the days of their lives.

May God richly bless you.

Gids
 
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