Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

[TheSeabass]

The word απειθεω has the basic meaning of "not to allow one’s self to be persuaded" as my lexicon has it. Notice also how various version translate that word in that verse:

NASB "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

NIV "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him."

NKJV "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Whereas the salvation-by-Works Christians would take the NASB's translation "does not obey" and imply that obedience is with reference to some kind of a law, whereas as you noted it's referring to refusing to believe.

John 3:36 shows that "not believing" is disobedience therefore believing is obedience and not a mere mental assent of the mind...a mere acknowledgement of certain facts and nothing more. Believing therefore is a work, an obedient work.

 

[-57]

God foreknows if a man, of his own free will, will chose to obey the gospel and be saved or not, but God does not determine it for men. God has not predetermined which individuals will or will not turn to Him for such would make God a respecter of persons when He is not, Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35; Romans 2:11

God does so determine for men.

Concerning salvation you have no free-will. Once God changes your heart you freely come.

You see, here's your problem...when someone supposedly "chooses Jesus' they base that choice on something. Typically it will be the events, learnings, etc. of what happened in your life. Do you think God is going to save you depending on an answer filtered through the happenstance of life?

 

[bcbsr]

John 3:36 shows that "not believing" is disobedience therefore believing is obedience and not a mere mental assent of the mind...a mere acknowledgement of certain facts and nothing more. Believing therefore is a work, an obedient work.

Your conclusion doesn't follow. It's a non sequitur argument. Paul clearly classified faith and works as being two different things.

Rom 4:4,5 "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but believes God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."

 

[TheSeabass]

God does so determine for men.

God has determined how men would saved but God does not determine which men will or will not be saved.

Concerning salvation you have no free-will. Once God changes your heart you freely come.

Man does have free will to believe or not believe the gospel when he hears it, hence men are called by the gospel 2 Thessalonians 2:14. Those that chose to obey are the ones who answered that gospel call and the ones that God saves. while those that "obey not" the gospel of Christ, the ones that rejected the gospel call, will be in flaming fire, 2 Thessalonians 1:8.
God does not choose for men.

You see, here's your problem...when someone supposedly "chooses Jesus' they base that choice on something. Typically it will be the events, learnings, etc. of what happened in your life. Do you think God is going to save you depending on an answer filtered through the happenstance of life?

Well one cannot 'choose Jesus' if they never heard of Jesus, that is why it is incumbent on Christians to obey the great commission of Christ (Matt 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16) to preach the gospel to the world, ie, send out the gospel call.

Then that person who hears the gospel, then bases his choice to believe or not believe on the gospel he had just heard preached to him..."faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God" Rom 10:17.

 

[TheSeabass]

Your conclusion doesn't follow. It's a non sequitur argument. Paul clearly classified faith and works as being two different things.

Rom 4:4,5 "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but believes God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."

No, it is YOU, not Paul, that keeps including ALL works in the "worketh not" of Rom 4:5.

1) again, if Romans 4:5 eliminates obedience, then Paul included obedience back in Romans 6:16-18. But Paul never contradicted himself by ever eliminating obedience from being saved.

2) how could Abraham be one who "worketh not" when from Hebrews 11:8 and Hebrews 11:17 Abraham BY FAITH in fact did do obedient works?? And according to James was justified by those obedient works. Abraham clearly had an obedient faith.

3)
Paul-----------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies Rom 5:1
James-------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies James 2:24

Since there is just one way to be saved/justified, no alternatives and the Bible does not contradict itself, then faith must be a work that justifies.

There is no verse that says David or Abraham were justified by the flawless, perfect works required by OT law of Moses nor justified by faith alone part from obedience.

 

[GodsGrace101]

.....and this is why in Galatians 3:12 Paul says "And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them."


Under Moses' law, faith did not matter when it came to justification, for that law required perfect work in law keeping as you point out. So if you lived under Moses' law, you could have all the faith in the world but the first time you sinned then you bring the curse of the law upon yourself...that OT law showed no mercy, all it did was condemn. So justification under the OT law was not of faith but by "doeth them", flawlessly, living in that law and keeping it perfectly.

Galatians 3:11 "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God", why? for no man kept the OT perfectly...other than Christ.

"...it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." Justification is not thru perfect law keeping but by faith. NOT faith only but an obedient faith.

Those Galatian Christians who left the NT to go back to the OT law having been falsely lead there by Judiazers. Paul's point is why are you going back to the OT law when it cannot possible justify you with its required perfect law keeping. You were justified under the NT gospel by an obedient faith which is possible.

I'll say that Hebrews 6:4-6 also speaks to this.
Jews that had left the Law to believe in Jesus were in doubt and thinking of going back to the Law.

Paul told them they would be trampling on the our Lord,,,putting Him back up on the cross again.

And as to obedient faith....
exactly.
Romans 1:5 speaks to this.

 

[-57]

God has determined how men would saved but God does not determine which men will or will not be saved.

Not true. In fact god has dtermined some people will not be saved.
Jude 4For certain men have crept in among you unnoticed—ungodly ones who were designated long ago for condemnation. They turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality, and they deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Long ago was before they were born.


Pharaoh was chosen not to be saved. the bible even explains why.
Romans 9:17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Man does have free will to believe or not believe the gospel when he hears it, hence men are called by the gospel 2 Thessalonians 2:14. Those that chose to obey are the ones who answered that gospel call and the ones that God saves. while those that "obey not" the gospel of Christ, the ones that rejected the gospel call, will be in flaming fire, 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

You missed the point....according to free-will when you hear the gospel you make a choice to believe or not believe.
What is that choice based upon? You can't say you have free-will then not answer that question.

God does not choose for men.

He choose for Pharaoh. I just gave you the scripture above.

Well one cannot 'choose Jesus' if they never heard of Jesus, that is why it is incumbent on Christians to obey the great commission of Christ (Matt 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16) to preach the gospel to the world, ie, send out the gospel call.

You keep skirting the question. I understand why you are so reluctant.

Then that person who hears the gospel, then bases his choice to believe or not believe on the gospel he had just heard preached to him..."faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God" Rom 10:17.

Why would one choose to believe or not believe after hearing the gospel?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Your conclusion doesn't follow. It's a non sequitur argument. Paul clearly classified faith and works as being two different things.

Rom 4:4,5 "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but believes God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."

Simple:
The difference between being saved by THE LAW
and being saved by faith.

Even those that are saved by faith are asked to work for God.

As you yourself have stated...work is proof of salvation....
so if one does not work...
he, apparently, is not saved.

 

[TheSeabass]

I'll say that Hebrews 6:4-6 also speaks to this.
Jews that had left the Law to believe in Jesus were in doubt and thinking of going back to the Law.

Paul told them they would be trampling on the our Lord,,,putting Him back up on the cross again.

And as to obedient faith....
exactly.
Romans 1:5 speaks to this.

Yes, many admonishments in Hebrews to the Hebrew Christian about backsliding to the law of Moses again:

Hebrews 2:1-3
Hebrews 3:12
Hebrews 4:1,11
and Hebrews 6:4-6 as you noted.

 

[-57]

No, it is YOU, not Paul, that keeps including ALL works in the "worketh not" of Rom 4:5.

1) again, if Romans 4:5 eliminates obedience, then Paul included obedience back in Romans 6:16-18. But Paul never contradicted himself by ever eliminating obedience from being saved.

2) how could Abraham be one who "worketh not" when from Hebrews 11:8 and Hebrews 11:17 Abraham BY FAITH in fact did do obedient works?? And according to James was justified by those obedient works. Abraham clearly had an obedient faith.

3)
Paul-----------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies Rom 5:1
James-------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies James 2:24

Since there is just one way to be saved/justified, no alternatives and the Bible does not contradict itself, then faith must be a work that justifies.

There is no verse that says David or Abraham were justified by the flawless, perfect works required by OT law of Moses nor justified by faith alone part from obedience.

No one is saying there is anything wrong with obedience.

If you want to work to maintain your salvation have at it. As for me who is already eternally saved I'll work for Gods glory. Do you see the difference?

 

[-57]

Even those that are saved by faith are asked to work for God.

i think people get that.

8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[bcbsr]

Simple:
The difference between being saved by THE LAW
and being saved by faith.
Even those that are saved by faith are asked to work for God.
As you yourself have stated...work is proof of salvation....
so if one does not work...
he, apparently, is not saved.

"proof" or "evidence" is a different issue than "cause". A person who has been saved doesn't have to prove he has been saved in order to be saved or maintain his salvation status. Rather his works of faith will show that he has been saved. Some people simply can't understand this distinction. I'm not writing this for them, but for those who have the ability to distinguish the two ideas.

Don't confuse the condition to be saved with the condition of the saved.

 

[GodsGrace101]

i think people get that.

8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

I hope so.
Some people treat the word WORKS as if it were an undesirable word -- when, in fact, this is mostly what Jesus spoke of.

 

[TheSeabass]

Not true. In fact god has dtermined some people will not be saved.
Jude 4For certain men have crept in among you unnoticed—ungodly ones who were designated long ago for condemnation. They turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality, and they deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Long ago was before they were born.


Pharaoh was chosen not to be saved. the bible even explains why.
Romans 9:17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.





You missed the point....according to free-will when you hear the gospel you make a choice to believe or not believe.
What is that choice based upon? You can't say you have free-will then not answer that question.



He choose for Pharaoh. I just gave you the scripture above.





You keep skirting the question. I understand why you are so reluctant.



Why would one choose to believe or not believe after hearing the gospel?

Jude 1:4 does not mean those false teachers were unconditionally, randomly predetermined by God before the world began to be false teachers and condemned, but their punishment they received was already written about in the OT. These false teachers in Jude 1:4 would receive and be examples of the same condemnation as Sodom and Gomorrah and other ungodly people in the OT received. Look at the NLT of this verse "I say this because some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches, saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives. The condemnation of such people was recorded long ago, for they have denied our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."

God has predetermined ungodly people will be punished but God does not decided for men which ones will be or not be ungodly, men choose that for themselves.

Romans 9:17 does NOT say "Pharaoh was chosen not to be saved". All the verse say is that God had a twofold purpose with Pharaoh, 1) to show His power over Pharaoh and 2) declare His name throughout the earth. Again, nothing here at all about God declaring Pharaoh to be lost before the world began.

When one hears the gospel then one must choose to believe what the gospel says or choose not to believe the information contained within the gospel. If/when you choose to listen to the 'fake news' as President Trump calls it, you must choose to believe or not believe the information the news is giving out.

Note how those in Acts 2:37 believed the word of God preached to them by Peter, it pricked them in their hearts. Yet those in Acts 7:54 were 'cut to the heart" by God's word, rejecting God's word. Why the difference? Free will. If God has already determined who will or will not be saved, then preaching the gospel is useless, meaningless, it can do nothing and change nothing.

PS,
"saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives."
Sound familiar to a man made doctrine some on this forum hold to???

 

[GodsGrace101]

"proof" or "evidence" is a different issue than "cause". A person who has been saved doesn't have to prove he has been saved in order to be saved or maintain his salvation status. Rather his works of faith will show that he has been saved. Some people simply can't understand this distinction. I'm not writing this for them, but for those who have the ability to distinguish the two ideas.

Don't confuse the condition to be saved with the condition of the saved.

A person's works of faith will show that he has been saved. Agreed. Romans 1:5

SO....

IF a person has no works in his life....
according to you...we can safely assume he is not saved.

Are we on the same page yet?

 

[Hammster]

.....and this is why in Galatians 3:12 Paul says "And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them."


Under Moses' law, faith did not matter when it came to justification, for that law required perfect work in law keeping as you point out. So if you lived under Moses' law, you could have all the faith in the world but the first time you sinned then you bring the curse of the law upon yourself...that OT law showed no mercy, all it did was condemn. So justification under the OT law was not of faith but by "doeth them", flawlessly, living in that law and keeping it perfectly.

Galatians 3:11 "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God", why? for no man kept the OT perfectly...other than Christ.

"...it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." Justification is not thru perfect law keeping but by faith. NOT faith only but an obedient faith.

Those Galatian Christians who left the NT to go back to the OT law having been falsely lead there by Judiazers. Paul's point is why are you going back to the OT law when it cannot possible justify you with its required perfect law keeping. You were justified under the NT gospel by an obedient faith which is possible.

You really need to read all of chapter three instead of cherry picking verses that you think support your view.

And on top of that, you actually add to what those verses say.

This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain⁠—if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
— Galatians 3:2-9

How and when was Abraham justified? When he heard the gospel and believed. Before the law. Before future obedience. That’s grace.

 

[Hammster]

John 3:36 shows that "not believing" is disobedience therefore believing is obedience and not a mere mental assent of the mind...a mere acknowledgement of certain facts and nothing more. Believing therefore is a work, an obedient work.

It’s the work Jesus says to do.

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
— John 6:29

 

[bcbsr]

A person's works of faith will show that he has been saved. Agreed. Romans 1:5

SO....

IF a person has no works in his life....
according to you...we can safely assume he is not saved.

Are we on the same page yet?

As I've always been saying, over and over, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10

 

[Shimokita]

This whole debate that endlessly goes round and round is basically folks like you arguing that salvation is dependent on obedience to the law. Which nullifies grace and the gospel of Christ altogether

What law friend? Are you under the law of Christ, or not?

And yes, you can't go out raping and killing people, or committing adultery thousands of times as Martin Luther suggested.

Do not be deceived.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Not true. In fact god has dtermined some people will not be saved.
Jude 4For certain men have crept in among you unnoticed—ungodly ones who were designated long ago for condemnation. They turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality, and they deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Long ago was before they were born.

Pharaoh was chosen not to be saved. the bible even explains why.
Romans 9:17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.


You missed the point....according to free-will when you hear the gospel you make a choice to believe or not believe.
What is that choice based upon? You can't say you have free-will then not answer that question.

He choose for Pharaoh. I just gave you the scripture above.

You keep skirting the question. I understand why you are so reluctant.

Why would one choose to believe or not believe after hearing the gospel?

I wanted to confirm that Jude was speaking about the gnostics,,,,,
Also, Long Ago does not mean before the world began or came into existence. It just means, literally, long ago.

I've decided to post an entire commentary that will explain this well.

I do hope you read it because you're unfortunately incorrect regarding why Jude wrote and about what time period he is refferring.


Benson Commentary
Jude 1:4. For there are certain men (see the margin) crept in unawares — Insinuating themselves into people’s affections by their plausible pretences, and leavening them by degrees with their errors. The ungodly teachers here described seem to have been the Nicolaitans, mentioned Revelation 2:6, whose doctrine Christ himself declared to be hateful to him.

Perhaps the Gnostics and Carpocratians, the successors of the Nicolaitans, were also meant. The Nicolaitans are said to have maintained that marriage was a human invention, not binding on Christians; on which account they had women in common, and practised unnatural lusts, as is plain from Jude’s account of them.

And they hardened themselves against the fear of punishment in a future state for these crimes, by extolling the goodness and mercy of God, which they thus perverted to lasciviousness. Who were of old ordained — Or rather, as the original expression, προγεγραμμενοι

εις τουτο το κριμα, literally signifies, written, or described, before to this condemnation — Even as early as Enoch, by whom it was foretold, that by their wilful sins they would incur this condemnation.

“Jude means, that these wicked teachers had their punishment before written, that is, foretold, in what is written concerning the wicked Sodomites and rebellious Israelites, whose crimes were the same with theirs; and whose punishment was not only a proof of God’s resolution to punish sinners, but an example of the punishment which he would inflict on them. Others think that in the word προγεγραμμενοι, written before, there is an allusion to the ancient custom of writing laws on tables, which were hung up in public places, that the people might know the punishment annexed to the breaking of the laws.

If this is the allusion, the apostle’s meaning will be, that the wicked teachers, of whom he is speaking, were, by the divine law, condemned to severe punishment from the beginning. Turning the grace of our God — Revealed in the gospel; into lasciviousness — Into an occasion of more abandoned wickedness, even to countenance their lewd and filthy practices.

It seems these ungodly men interpreted the doctrine of justification by faith, in such a manner as to free believers from all obligation to obey the law of God, and taught that they might commit the worst actions without being liable to punishment, if they possessed faith; by which they meant the mere speculative belief and outward profession of the gospel. Denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ — See on 2 Peter 2:1. The original words, και τον μονον δεσποτην Θεον και κυριον ημων Ιησουν Χριστον αρνουμενοι, “may be translated various ways, all equally literal: 1st, And denying the only Lord God, even our Lord Jesus Christ.

According to this translation, one person only is spoken of here, namely, our Lord Jesus Christ, who is called the only Lord God. 2d, Denying both the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. According to this translation, two persons are distinctly spoken of, namely, the one Lord God, or God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ his Song of Solomon 3 d, And denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

This, which is the translation in our English Bible, and which, in sense, is not different from the second rendering, I have adopted,” says Macknight, “not only because, according to it, two persons are spoken of as denied, namely, the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ, but because it represents Jude’s sentiment as precisely the same with John’s 1st epist. 1 John 2:22, He is the antichrist who denieth the Father and the Son. By declaring that those ungodly teachers denied both the Father and the Son, the apostle showed to what a pitch of impiety they had proceeded.

source: Jude 1:4 Commentaries: For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.