Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

[Hammster]

Do you understand that there are conditions to being in Covenant with the Lord.


There are also conditions to remain “in Christ”.


Do you know what the condition is for remaining in Christ?

There are none.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Yes, one must do his duty as God requires "in order to be saved" to enter the strait gate.

bcbsr
"in order to be saved"? Typical - always appending "in order to be saved" to every command as if there's not any other reason to do what is right unless you're threatened with hell fire. Kind of self-seeking

Heb 11:7 "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to (EIS) the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for (EIS) the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

The Greek word eis carries the idea of looking forward, toward, unto, "in order to". Noah therefore built the ark unto, in order for his house to be saved. He did not build the ark because his house was already saved from a flood that not yet occurred. Likewise, one repents and is baptized in order to have sins remitted. To try and change "eis" to mean 'becuase' is butchering the meaning of these verses.



Rom 10:5 Paul is showing that one cannot be saved by the OT law of Moses that required strict, perfect flawless obedience. Paul also says "For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to every one that believeth"

So Christ ended the OT law's requirement of perfect law keeping. I have never argued that one can be saved by works of the OT law in flawless law keeping.

There were reasons for the O.T. Law which there's no reason to get into here.

Just want to say that man was never saved by keeping the Law perfectly since no one could.

In the O.T. as in the N.T. man was saved by faith.
That faith included obedience to God...

So what has changed between the Law of Moses and the New Covenant?

The Holy Spirit.
Faith and obedience remain...
The Holy Spirit empowers us.
Acts 1:8

 

[Hammster]

OK H.
Whatever.
Nuff talk about Noah.

I posted John 15:1-6

You tell me I don't know context.
You refuse to prove that I don't.

So, I can only proffer that I DO post John 15:1-6 as I understand it and that you must agree since you do not show any support for any other understanding of these verses.

Okay.

 

[Shimokita]

I did.... As a young man, a friend asked me to join him in some sinful activity. I said, in my young innocent days "Jesus wouldn't like that" The friend responded. "OH, I'll just go to the priest on Friday and confess".

Even at a young age, probably 8 or 9, we two, had been taught two different theologies... Even at 8 or 9 years of age, I knew that I did not have a license to sin.

It's not a valid confession if you intend to do it again.

 

[Shimokita]

Obey the law to be saved. No grace. No gospel.

No brother, you are teaching a false gospel.

The same St. Paul makes it very clear that people who do certain kinds of sinning will forfeit their gift.

You know plenty well what will happen to you if you reject God and turn to a life of sin.

And your theology turns God into a moral monster who capriciously saves some and damns others just for kicks. No offense, but this is what your beliefs lead to.

 

[Hammster]

No brother, you are teaching a false gospel.

The same St. Paul makes it very clear that people who do certain kinds of sinning will forfeit their gift.

You know plenty well what will happen to you if you reject God and turn to a life of sin.

And your theology turns God into a moral monster who capriciously saves some and damns others just for kicks. No offense, but this is what your beliefs lead to.

And, here goes the unwarranted attack on Reformed Theology. Not once have I mentioned election, predestination, or any other hot button issues. But when all else fails, go to the ad homs.

 

[MDC]

No brother, you are teaching a false gospel.

The same St. Paul makes it very clear that people who do certain kinds of sinning will forfeit their gift.

You know plenty well what will happen to you if you reject God and turn to a life of sin.

And your theology turns God into a moral monster who capriciously saves some and damns others just for kicks. No offense, but this is what your beliefs lead to.

This whole debate that endlessly goes round and round is basically folks like you arguing that salvation is dependent on obedience to the law. Which nullifies grace and the gospel of Christ altogether

 

[bcbsr]

Do you believe you as a Christian can hate another brother, and still have eternal life remaining in you?

It's not possible for those who have been born of God, and thus of those who have eternal life, to not love their brethren who also have been born of God, as it is written, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10

This is in contrast to the soteriology of salvation by works Christians who would claim that having eternal life is contingent upon your performance. A person's performance is an indicator rather than a cause of one's salvation. Unless of course you're talking about attaining righteousness by the law, which is a different covenant.

 

[bcbsr]

IN CONTEXT "worketh not" eliminates works required by the OT law. Abraham and David were not justified by works the OT law required in flawless law keeping (Abraham did not even live under the law of Moses) but saved by an obedient belief. Nowhere in Romans or elsewhere does Paul ever eliminate a faithful obedience, see Romans 6:16-18

Paul's rhetoric is speaking of works generically as you can see from the context: "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:4,5

Of course I don't expect to persuade you, but to show viewers who exercise basic reading comprehension skills that your interpretation simply doesn't stand up under scrutiny.

 

[Hammster]

Paul's rhetoric is speaking of works generically as you can see from the context: "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:4,5

Of course I don't expect to persuade you, but to show viewers who exercise basic reading comprehension skills that your interpretation simply doesn't stand up under scrutiny.

I’ll add

Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
— Galatians 3:7-9

I’m blessed with Abraham.

 

[Danthemailman]

Thanks. That makes my point. He is showing the difference between the gospel (believe) and the law (obey).

I often hear works-salvationists quote John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved by obedience/works which "follow" saving belief in Christ. In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son.

*If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the CSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son."

The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is "apeitheo" and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son. *Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow" believing in the Son unto salvation.

 

[TheSeabass]

Wow, so not true.

You're salvation was determined before you were even born. In fact before the world was ever made.

God doesn't say, look how well he did. I think I'll save him.

God foreknows if a man, of his own free will, will chose to obey the gospel and be saved or not, but God does not determine it for men. God has not predetermined which individuals will or will not turn to Him for such would make God a respecter of persons when He is not, Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35; Romans 2:11

 

[Danthemailman]

Obeying the gospel is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forevermore. Amen.
— Galatians 1:3-5

In Romans 10:16, we read: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" We can clearly see that we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16) *Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow" believing the gospel and becoming saved.

The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

Sadly, many trust in works for salvation and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE.

 

[bcbsr]

I often hear works-salvationists quote John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved by obedience/works which "follow" saving belief in Christ. In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son.

*If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the CSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son."

The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is "apeitheo" and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son. *Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow" believing in the Son unto salvation.

The word απειθεω has the basic meaning of "not to allow one’s self to be persuaded" as my lexicon has it. Notice also how various version translate that word in that verse:

NASB "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

NIV "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him."

NKJV "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Whereas the salvation-by-Works Christians would take the NASB's translation "does not obey" and imply that obedience is with reference to some kind of a law, whereas as you noted it's referring to refusing to believe.

 

[Hammster]

God foreknows if a man, of his own free will, will chose to obey the gospel and be saved or not, but God does not determine it for men. God has not predetermined which individuals will or will not turn to Him for such would make God a respecter of persons when He is not, Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35; Romans 2:11

I know you don’t believe this, but if you look at the context of Acts 10 is Peter saying that God doesn’t respect the Jews as being special, and people who are not Jews can also be saved. It doesn’t mean that God doesn’t have chosen people, as Paul make clear in Colossians 3.

So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;
— Colossians 3:12

 

[TheSeabass]

Paul's rhetoric is speaking of works generically as you can see from the context: "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:4,5

Of course I don't expect to persuade you, but to show viewers who exercise basic reading comprehension skills that your interpretation simply doesn't stand up under scrutiny.

No, Paul is not including all works in general in Romans 4:5 for he would contradict himself in Romans 6:16-18. Again, nowhere in the context of Romans chapters 1-3 leading up to Romans 4 does Paul eliminate all works. The only work he mentions in these chapters that cannot justify is works of the OT law as he points out in Romans 3...even though the Jews had the OT law given them it did not justify them for they sinned (Romans 3:10-19) and did not keep it perfectly. When you get near the end of Romans 3 we find Paul saying faith is what justifies both the Gentile and Jew who are under sin…….

Romans 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Paul:
1) in Rom 3:28 Paul eliminated works/deeds of the OT law and did not eliminate an obedient faith. Belief/faith is a work, John 6:27-29, Mark 2:1-5; 1 Thessalonians 1:3; John 3:36; etc. If Paul eliminated all works then he would eliminate belief/faith. How then could Abraham ever been justified if he disobeyed in Genesis 12 or Genesis 22?
Again, Exodus 23:7 God does NOT justify the disobedient, ungodly person.

2) Paul did not say a man is justified by faith alone. 'Faith' and 'faith only' are two completely different things.

3) Paul shows one first obeys from the heart, then one is freed from sin/justified Romans 6:17-18

4) Paul uses both Abraham and David and show neither were justified by deeds of the OT law, they "worketh not" but had an obedient faith. No verse anywhere says David nor Abraham were justified by faith alone.

 

[TheSeabass]

I know you don’t believe this, but if you look at the context of Acts 10 is Peter saying that God doesn’t respect the Jews as being special, and people who are not Jews can also be saved. It doesn’t mean that God doesn’t have chosen people, as Paul make clear in Colossians 3.

So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;
— Colossians 3:12

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

This context does not say God already has certain select individuals that He will accept.

Peter says "he"... 'he' refers to anyone, in any nation that first 'conditionally' fears God and works righteousness is accepted with God. No individual was chosen before the world began unconditionally apart from fearing God and working righteousness. For if certain individuals were unconditionally chosen then that is respect of persons.
Again, the conditions the context gives to be accepted with God is fearing God and working righteousness and not being unconditionally or randomly selected by God before the world began.

 

[Hammster]

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

This context does not say God already has certain select individuals that He will accept.

Peter says "he"... 'he' refers to anyone, in any nation that first 'conditionally' fears God and works righteousness is accepted with God. No individual was chosen before the world began unconditionally apart from fearing God and working righteousness. For if certain individuals were unconditionally chosen then that is respect of persons.
Again, the conditions the context gives to be accepted with God is fearing God and working righteousness and not being unconditionally or randomly selected by God before the world began.

Like I said...

 

[TheSeabass]

There were reasons for the O.T. Law which there's no reason to get into here.

Just want to say that man was never saved by keeping the Law perfectly since no one could.

.....and this is why in Galatians 3:12 Paul says "And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them."


Under Moses' law, faith did not matter when it came to justification, for that law required perfect work in law keeping as you point out. So if you lived under Moses' law, you could have all the faith in the world but the first time you sinned then you bring the curse of the law upon yourself...that OT law showed no mercy, all it did was condemn. So justification under the OT law was not of faith but by "doeth them", flawlessly, living in that law and keeping it perfectly.

Galatians 3:11 "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God", why? for no man kept the OT perfectly...other than Christ.

"...it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." Justification is not thru perfect law keeping but by faith. NOT faith only but an obedient faith.

Those Galatian Christians who left the NT to go back to the OT law having been falsely lead there by Judiazers. Paul's point is why are you going back to the OT law when it cannot possible justify you with its required perfect law keeping. You were justified under the NT gospel by an obedient faith which is possible.

 

[TheSeabass]

Like I said...

You were right.