Cessationism "New" Revelation?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Seeing that there are no clear Scriptures that say that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit, including tongues, prophecy, healing, signs and wonders are temporary and limited to the Apostolic Age, it might be fair to say that those who came up with the Cessationist teaching, going back to Calvin, came up with "new" revelation that is not in Scripture, and so the Cessationist "revelation" is adding to Scripture that is not there.

Cessationists criticize modern continuists and Charismatics having "new" revelations that are extra-Biblical, and yet they themselves are adding to God's Word themselves? These Reformed Cessationists say all inspired revelation needs to be previously inspired in the Bible, but their "revelation" that tongues, prophecy, and healing ceased in the First Century is not recorded by the words of Jesus or Paul anywhere in the New Testament!

So, where did these Cessationists get their "new revelations" that are not in the written Word? They dreamed them up themselves! Wouldn't that be hypocritical to say that we need to adhere strictly to the written Scriptures as they teach and yet they are bringing forth Cessationist doctrines based on "new revelation" from Calvin and his followers which are not in the Scriptures at all.

Where are the clear words of Jesus and Paul that say that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are to last for a short time? They are not there at all!

Cessationism is a dreamed up theology out of Calvin's own mind and not from the Word of God. Proverbs 30:6 says, "Do not add to my words, otherwise I will come to you and expose you as a liar.'

Now, the Calvinists teach some great doctrines that are in the Scriptures, there is no doubt about that and forms a strong foundation in the true gospel of Christ.

But Cessationism is a false non-Biblical doctrine and the Holy Spirit does not support it.

I don't go along with the excesses of the Charismatic movement, such as faith teaching, positive confession, kundalini manifestations, naming and claiming, positive thinking, or guaranteed healing. None of these are found in the New Testament either.

The term "Spectacular sign gifts" is not used in the New Testament either, because there weren't any! But healing and casting out of demons and ordinary signs and wonders certainly did accompany the Apostle's preaching of the gospel! And, Stephen and Philip also did signs and wonders and they weren't Apostles. What about the 70 who Jesus sent out? They did signs and wonders and they weren't even believers!

 

[trophy33]

You need to go much more back than just to Calvin.

In the first centuries, prophecy, tongues and gifts of miracles disappeared, so prophets were substituted by bishops in churches. You can read church historians like Eusebius about this topic or simply first church writings to know about this shift.

Charismatic/pentecostal movement in the USA in the 19th/20th century is a new thing for the general church.

 

[Quasiblogo]

The only cessation that I understand, is per Hebrews 4:10: For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his (KJV).

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You need to go much more back than just to Calvin.

In the first centuries, prophecy, tongues and gifts of miracles disappeared, so prophets were substituted by bishops in churches. You can read church historians like Eusebius about this topic or simply first church writings to know about this shift.

Charismatic/pentecostal movement in the USA in the 19th/20th century is a new thing for the general church.

I know exactly why the gifts declined and ceased. It was the invasion of occult paganism, and the decrease of holiness that was caused by the influx of the pagan idol worshipers who were required to join Christian churches in the Fourth Century. Constantine took over the church, and because he was not truly converted but kept to his pagan ways, he introduced a lot of it into the church. Because the Holy Spirit has no fellowship with the occult, paganism and a lack of holiness, He said, 'I'm outa' here!"

The reason why we don't see a widespread manifestation of the gifts today is that much of the Charismatic movement is riddled with the occult, paganism and a lack of holiness. But there are groups that reject those excesses and they are seeing the supernatural gifts happening among them.

 

[trophy33]

I know exactly why the gifts declined and ceased. It was the invasion of occult paganism, and the decrease of holiness that was caused by the influx of the pagan idol worshipers who were required to join Christian churches in the Fourth Century.

The gifts were ceasing in the second century already. They were more and more rare as apostles were dying out.

To say that modern american Christianity is less pagan and more holier than the first centuries churches and therefore it has the real supernatural gifts is quite a statement. The begginings of the charismatic/pentecostal movement is everything you would not accept, probably. You must clean, filter, clean, filter it if you want to get something positive and Christian-like from this movement's fruit.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The gifts were ceasing in the second century already. They were more and more rare as apostles were dying out.

To say that modern american Christianity is less pagan and more holier than the first centuries churches and therefore it has the real supernatural gifts is quite a statement. The beginnings of the charismatic/pentecostal movement is everything you would not accept, probably. You must clean, filter, clean, filter it until you will get something positive and Christian-like from it.

By the end of the First Century, the church was riddled with heresy (Arianism, Gnosticism). Jesus had problems with the seven principal Christian churches. As the initial vision and the cutting edge of holiness decreased, so did the gifts. As the gifts declined, then subsequent Bible teachers started to teach that the supernatural gifts weren't needed. It is correct that the church appointed Bishops and the manifestation of prophecy was discouraged in favour of the Bishops' authority.

Over the last 40 years there has been a major invasion of occult paganism into the Charismatic movement. 50 years ago, it was part of the lunatic fringe, but it has now increased to be a prominent part of the mainstream Charismatic movement. You said that you have to extract the negative and use the positive. Have you tried to take the .4% poison out of a packet of rat poison? You can't. It is so mixed in with the 99.6% good food that rats like to eat so that when they eat it, the poison kills them stone dead. So the rats would be well advised to keep right away from the food even though it looks good in appearance.

The tares and the wheat in the movement are so mixed and the roots are so intertwined together, that the tares can't be extracted.

So. we need the true signs and wonders, and supernatural gifts of the Spirit to support the true gospel to show the difference between the true Charismatic manifestations from the false. We need these today as much in our neo-pagan society as they were needed in the First Century.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

By the end of the First Century, the church was riddled with heresy (Arianism, Gnosticism). Jesus had problems with the seven principal Christian churches. As the initial vision and the cutting edge of holiness decreased, so did the gifts. As the gifts declined, then subsequent Bible teachers started to teach that the supernatural gifts weren't needed. It is correct that the church appointed Bishops and the manifestation of prophecy was discouraged in favour of the Bishops' authority.

Over the last 40 years there has been a major invasion of occult paganism into the Charismatic movement. 50 years ago, it was part of the lunatic fringe, but it has now increased to be a prominent part of the mainstream Charismatic movement. You said that you have to extract the negative and use the positive. Have you tried to take the .4% poison out of a packet of rat poison? You can't. It is so mixed in with the 99.6% good food that rats like to eat so that when they eat it, the poison kills them stone dead. So the rats would be well advised to keep right away from the food even though it looks good in appearance.

The tares and the wheat in the movement are so mixed and the roots are so intertwined together, that the tares can't be extracted.

So. we need the true signs and wonders, and supernatural gifts of the Spirit to support the true gospel to show the difference between the true Charismatic manifestations from the false. We need these today as much in our neo-pagan society as they were needed in the First Century.

The thing is, the lunatic fringe that grew out of control in the Charismatic movement, started as Pentecostal teachers.

I'd agree the sign gifts are well and good, I rely on God for them.

However, the main issue cessationists have with the new bursting of people speaking in tongues, laying on hands to heal, and prophesying is that the symptoms going as a far back as Asusa street has symptoms of witchcraft as the root cause.

Echoing the previous posts that say, these gifts actually did cease in the second century leaving an Academic legacy leading to the division we see now.

So my position is, I experience the sign gifts and even have matured manifestations, but I also see symptoms of sorcery in churches in general.

So there's real stuff out there, but to the degree of reliability in the 1st century where people can YouTube it and "fully proclaim the gospel" (with the signs and wonders as Paul said when he said he fully proclaimed) ... that's not a thing today.

 

[Francis Drake]

Seeing that there are no clear Scriptures that say that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit, including tongues, prophecy, healing, signs and wonders are temporary and limited to the Apostolic Age, it might be fair to say that those who came up with the Cessationist teaching, going back to Calvin, came up with "new" revelation that is not in Scripture, and so the Cessationist "revelation" is adding to Scripture that is not there.

Cessationists criticize modern continuists and Charismatics having "new" revelations that are extra-Biblical, and yet they themselves are adding to God's Word themselves? These Reformed Cessationists say all inspired revelation needs to be previously inspired in the Bible, but their "revelation" that tongues, prophecy, and healing ceased in the First Century is not recorded by the words of Jesus or Paul anywhere in the New Testament!

So, where did these Cessationists get their "new revelations" that are not in the written Word? They dreamed them up themselves! Wouldn't that be hypocritical to say that we need to adhere strictly to the written Scriptures as they teach and yet they are bringing forth Cessationist doctrines based on "new revelation" from Calvin and his followers which are not in the Scriptures at all.

Where are the clear words of Jesus and Paul that say that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are to last for a short time? They are not there at all!

Cessationism is a dreamed up theology out of Calvin's own mind and not from the Word of God. Proverbs 30:6 says, "Do not add to my words, otherwise I will come to you and expose you as a liar.'

Now, the Calvinists teach some great doctrines that are in the Scriptures, there is no doubt about that and forms a strong foundation in the true gospel of Christ.

But Cessationism is a false non-Biblical doctrine and the Holy Spirit does not support it.

I don't go along with the excesses of the Charismatic movement, such as faith teaching, positive confession, kundalini manifestations, naming and claiming, positive thinking, or guaranteed healing. None of these are found in the New Testament either.

The term "Spectacular sign gifts" is not used in the New Testament either, because there weren't any! But healing and casting out of demons and ordinary signs and wonders certainly did accompany the Apostle's preaching of the gospel! And, Stephen and Philip also did signs and wonders and they weren't Apostles. What about the 70 who Jesus sent out? They did signs and wonders and they weren't even believers!

Well said Oscarr, I like it!

 

[Albion]

Seeing that there are no clear Scriptures that say that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit, including tongues, prophecy, healing, signs and wonders are temporary and limited to the Apostolic Age, it might be fair to say that those who came up with the Cessationist teaching, going back to Calvin, came up with "new" revelation that is not in Scripture, and so the Cessationist "revelation" is adding to Scripture that is not there.

That is a lame argument. If Cessationism is wrong, it should be possible to show it to be wrong using the actual facts surrounding the thinking of Cessationists and the history of Cessationism.

We can begin with the basic reason that Cessationists are Cessationists. Tongues, etc. did cease to occupy the place in the church that they had had in the early years of the church and for an obvious reason--the objective had been met. In addition, Cessationists do not argue that they ceased totally and God never ever chose to gift any individual thereafter.

Second, Cessationism is much older than Calvin, although Pentecostalism is much more recent in origin.

Third, the idea that there must be a verse in Scripture outlining the future of every admonition or practice is little more than a trick with words. As we know, there is no reason why scripture should have commented on the future of everything. There is no statement saying that there are to be 66 books of the Bible, for example, so are we expected to keep adding more, lest we be untrue to the Bible?

A serious treatment of this subject is welcome. But merely saying the things that make one side feel better about themselves, whether or not the facts are correct, has been tried many times already. We need something better than that now.

 

[Albion]

I know exactly why the gifts declined and ceased. It was the invasion of occult paganism, and the decrease of holiness that was caused by the influx of the pagan idol worshipers who were required to join Christian churches in the Fourth Century. Constantine took over the church, and because he was not truly converted but kept to his pagan ways, he introduced a lot of it into the church. Because the Holy Spirit has no fellowship with the occult, paganism and a lack of holiness, He said, 'I'm outa' here!"

So...have you become a kind of "Cessationist" then? That's what this sounds like.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That is a lame argument. If Cessationism is wrong, it should be possible to show it to be wrong using the actual facts surrounding the thinking of Cessationists and the history of Cessationism.

We can begin with the basic reason that Cessationists are Cessationists. Tongues, etc. did cease to occupy the place in the church that they had had in the early years of the church and for an obvious reason--the objective had been met. In addition, Cessationists do not argue that they ceased totally and God never ever chose to gift any individual thereafter.

Second, Cessationism is much older than Calvin, although Pentecostalism is much more recent in origin.

Third, the idea that there must be a verse in Scripture outlining the future of every admonition or practice is little more than a trick with words. As we know, there is no reason why scripture should have commented on the future of everything. There is no statement saying that there are to be 66 books of the Bible, for example, so are we expected to keep adding more, lest we be untrue to the Bible?

A serious treatment of this subject is welcome. But merely saying the things that make one side feel better about themselves, whether or not the facts are correct, has been tried many times already. We need something better than that now.

The fact is that we cannot add to God's Word. And there is nothing in God's Word to say that the supernatural gifts were just for a short time while the Apostles were still alive. So, to say that they were meant to cease after the First Century is adding to God's Word and therefore heresy.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So...have you become a kind of "Cessationist" then? That's what this sounds like.

Not at all. I firmly believe that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are available today, but they manifest in environments where there are people of prayer, of the word, have a foundation of sound doctrine, and living holy lives. We don't see those type of people on Youtube, therefore observations of genuine manifestations are rare in the public arena.

 

[Albion]

The fact is that we cannot add to God's Word. [/quote
None of us disputes that.
[quote And there is nothing in God's Word to say that the supernatural gifts were just for a short time while the Apostles were still alive. So, to say that they were meant to cease after the First Century is adding to God's Word and therefore heresy.

Baloney. It is nothing more than to say "Look what happened."

You not only want to impose one possible interpretation upon God's word, but you still are avoiding the big question here, the only thing that makes a Cessationist be a Cessationist--there was a cessation. It is not as though we prefer this; it is just what happened. What's more, you said so yourself in that post of yours about pagan influences, etc. etc.

 

[W2L]

Healers never go to hospitals and tongues are not interpreted. Why should i believe in either?

 

[Albion]

On the second of those, you may have noticed that the Continuationists have a fall-back position when it is pointed out that tongues-speaking normally does not happen with a translator...and the churches which specialize in such things are not concerned about it.

I am referring to the claim that it is ecstatic speech (meaningless sound is not speech) or, even worse, angelic speech (as though angels, being spirits, even have lips and tongues).

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Baloney. It is nothing more than to say "Look what happened."

You not only want to impose one possible interpretation upon God's word, but you still are avoiding the big question here, the only thing that makes a Cessationist be a Cessationist--there was a cessation. It is not as though we prefer this; it is just what happened. What's more, you said so yourself in that post of yours about pagan influences, etc. etc.

I felt strangely warmed when I read your reply to my post. For a minute I thought I might have been flamed...
I read the church fathers who said the same things about the causes of the cessation of the gifts. There is a good video series on Youtube by the Pastor of the Cedarwood church in Ontario where he teaches about the gifts of the Spirit from the actual text of Scripture.

 

[Francis Drake]

If Cessationism is right that all prophecy ceased after the early church period, then Jesus was obviously wrong in his message about the last days.
Matt10v18And you will be brought also before governors and kings on account of Me, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19And when they deliver you up, do not be anxious how or what you should speak; for in that hour you will be given what you should say, 20for you are not those speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Contrary to Cessationists, these people will be given words to speak at that time, they will not be quoting the bible at their captors, but fresh prophecy or fresh words of knowledge.

Some might say that the above was fulfilled by the early church, but the context clearly includes the second coming.-
23And whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next. For truly I say to you, you shall not have completed the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

Clearly the gifts of the spirit will still be around before Jesus comes again.

 

[GTW27]

If Cessationism is right that all prophecy ceased after the early church period, then Jesus was obviously wrong in his message about the last days.
Matt10v18And you will be brought also before governors and kings on account of Me, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19And when they deliver you up, do not be anxious how or what you should speak; for in that hour you will be given what you should say, 20for you are not those speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Contrary to Cessationists, these people will be given words to speak at that time, they will not be quoting the bible at their captors, but fresh prophecy or fresh words of knowledge.

Some might say that the above was fulfilled by the early church, but the context clearly includes the second coming.-
23And whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next. For truly I say to you, you shall not have completed the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

Clearly the gifts of the spirit will still be around before Jesus comes again.

As long as The Holy Spirit is in us, then The Gifts of The Holy Spirit will remain. Let us all yield to The Holy Spirit and bring Glory to His Name. We must not be ignorant of the enemies devices one of which is cessationism.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The prayer of the Apostles was:
"And now, Lord, consider their threats, and enable Your servants to speak Your word with complete boldness,as You stretch out Your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of Your holy servant Jesus" (Acts 4:29-30).

Who in their right mind would not pray the same prayer today? Trouble is most churches pray the first half and miss out the second, because they don't believe that the Lord stretches out His hand to heal and perform signs and wonders in this generation.

I think that not to pray the second half of the prayer with the same passion as the first half is to tell the Lord what to do with His hand. If the Lord wants to stretch out His hand to heal and perform signs and wonders as part of the preaching of the gospel, then He will, and I don't think that He will listen to some Cessationist pelican who tries to tell Him that He shouldn't.

I think that it is absolute arrogance for Cessationists to dictate to the Lord when and where He should stretch out His hand to heal and perform signs and wonders, as it is just as arrogant as wacky faith Charismatics to say that He should do it when they demand that He should.

 

[Francis Drake]

As long as The Holy Spirit is in us, then The Gifts of The Holy Spirit will remain. Let us all yield to The Holy Spirit and bring Glory to His Name. We must not be ignorant of the enemies devices one of which is cessationism.

Exactly.
They are the blind leading the blind.