preachers are scared to say SALVATION CAN BE LOST

[Derek1933]

It is a hard topic to get right without sounding like works-based legalism (which is equally disqualifying).

Maybe they're afraid of teaching false doctrine, like you can lose your salvation.

Losing salvation doesn't even make logical sense. How can someone say that such and such a person has been saved from the wrath to come, they have eternal life and are guaranteed an eternal inheritance. Such is not the case if there's the possibility of it being lost.

Those who believe salvation can be lost can't say that they "have been saved". They can only say that such a person only has the possibility of being saved in the future, but no guarantee. Yet the rhetoric the Bible uses is inconsistent with the "you can lose your salvation" crowd.

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

"it is by grace you have been saved, through faith" Eph 2:5,8

As I see it, and as I've debated with their kind, the reason why people believe salvation can be lost is because they don't believe the gospel.

Argument about which is the most important, faith or good works, is facile for we must not only have faith in Christ but we must also do His will. We are instructed by Christ to engage with both. First and foremost to believe in Him and in the one who sent Him and also to love our neighbour as ourselves as epitomised by the parable of the Good Samaritan. As James 2.14-26 explains, “ What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”

 

[Derek1933]

Argument about which is the most important, faith or good works, is facile for we must not only have faith in Christ but we must also do His will. We are instructed by Christ to engage with both. First and foremost to believe in Him and in the one who sent Him and to love our neighbour as ourselves as epitomised by the parable of the Good Samaritan. As James 2.14-26 explains, “ What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” and he was called the friend of God. u see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Okay here we go again. Naturally if one could lose their salvation then I suppose they could gain it back again?

So on Monday I lost it Wednesday got it back again and then I lost it again on Saturday.

One had better be darn careful which day of the week they die on.

Ones if truly in Christ are there forever.

M-Bob

 

[bcbsr]

Argument about which is the most important, faith or good works, is facile for we must not only have faith in Christ but we must also do His will. We are instructed by Christ to engage with both. First and foremost to believe in Him and in the one who sent Him and also to love our neighbour as ourselves as epitomised by the parable of the Good Samaritan. As James 2.14-26 explains, “ What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”

Abraham was already justiified by faith apart from works long before the event James brings up about sacrificing Isaac. Seems to me Paul (as an apostle) trumps James.

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him." Rom 4:4-8

 

[Derek1933]

I believe the parable of the talents says something about works.

 

[Swan7]

I think it's really important to look at the Bible as a whole. Jesus said He has told us ALL things and His Holy Spirit teaches us all truth: John 14:26

These verses are indeed true: John 5:24 and Ephesians 2:5-8 Indeed we are saved and sealed: Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 29-30

Jesus also taught this on the Mount: Matthew 7:21-23 But, He also continues on here as a clue what path is true: Matthew 7:24-27

It's very important to stay true to what God has taught us throughout the Bible. Why would He give us all these warnings if we need to be careful of even our own heart? Jeremiah 17:9-10 (Following man or following God). Even further in this chapter God talks about His people forsaking him. It is God who does not forsake us, for He is sinless and perfect in all His ways.

If a Christian so chooses can indeed lose his/her salvation. Take a look at Revelation 13 where Jesus talks about the Mark of the Beast and who chooses to worship the image of the beast and take its mark! Why would Jesus warn us so vehemently about this if we couldn't lose our Salvation? Look at His letters to the 7 churches! Only 2 were not in condemnation.

Please, pray and study the Word of God to whomever truly wants to know Jesus Christ and what He teaches in His Word and why. This is so very important. Do not be deceived by even your own thoughts/interpretations of scripture - that's what happened to the Pharisees. God keeps us on guard with His every given Word.

 

[Lords Man]

its very very very RARE to hear a modern day preacher preach that salvation can be lost.
This is biblical and we need the truth spoken over us. Blessings

What the preacher says and what the Bible says often conflicts. Read my post here. Eternal (temporary) Life??? | Christian Forums

 

[bling]

At my seminary, we used to argue about the possibility of losing salvation. I can assure you that many pastors completely believe that you cannot lose your salvation and preach this with a clear conscience and conviction.

Even if you do believe that one can lose their salvation, the more difficult issue is where to draw the line of how far can one drift from God and still be saved.

A pastor who does preach on the impermanence of salvation runs a large risk of hurting his weaker sheep and leading his stronger sheep into pride (as when Peter declared that he would never fall away).

If God is my father only when I am good, then the parable of the prodigal son is emptied of meaning.

I prefer to go with Hebrews 6:9 "Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case--the things that have to do with salvation."

So, I preach that it may be theoretically possible to lose one's salvation, but there are no examples in the Bible. It seems that losing one's salvation must be very difficult to do.

There is a problem both ways:

There are a ton of scripture which suggest or warn you that you can give up your home in heaven.

If Ananias and Sapphira were not members there would be no reason to treat them so harshly and give warning to the believers at the time.

The convert can be overly concerned about their own conversion, if they feel they are now a totally different person.

Teaching, explaining and showing converts they have been given everything up front with a deed to heaven which cannot be lost, stolen, paid for and even taken back by God, but is truly theirs with them only having the power (free will) to give it up, but they have to want to give it up. It is not “sin” which takes their heavenly Home away, but the desire for sinning (a carnal lust) which can devalue Godly type Love (and heaven is full of only Godly type Love) to the point they give heaven up. Yes, it is up to them, because God is not going to force anyone to go to heaven who does not want to be there and actually lots of people have shown here on earth; they do not like accepting pure sacrificial charity.

 

[bling]

OK lets explore this thesis.

First of all what was spoken of by Jeremiah was an Everlasting Covenant to come in which the Holy Spirit would indwell individual believers. Further their salvation would be sealed in righteousness by the fear of Him.

Jer. 32: 36 “You are saying about this city, ‘By the sword, famine and plague it will be given into the hands of the king of Babylon’; but this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: 37 I will surely gather them from all the lands where I banish them in my furious anger and great wrath; I will bring them back to this place and let them live in safety. 38 They will be my people, and I will be their God. 39 I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me and that all will then go well for them and for their children after them. 40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me. 41 I will rejoice in doing them good and will assuredly plant them in this land with all my heart and soul.

42 “This is what the Lord says: As I have brought all this great calamity on this people, so I will give them all the prosperity I have promised them. 43 Once more fields will be bought in this land of which you say, ‘It is a desolate waste, without people or animals, for it has been given into the hands of the Babylonians.’ 44 Fields will be bought for silver, and deeds will be signed, sealed and witnessed in the territory of Benjamin, in the villages around Jerusalem, in the towns of Judah and in the towns of the hill country, of the western foothills and of the Negev, because I will restore their fortunes, declares the Lord.”

This everlasting covenant is repeatedly referred to as being between God and the Jews:

Genesis 17:7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.

Genesis 17:8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”

Genesis 48:4 and said to me, ‘I am going to make you fruitful and increase your numbers. I will make you a community of peoples, and I will give this land as an everlasting possession to your descendants after you.’

Isaiah 24:5 The earth is defiled by its people; they have disobeyed the laws, violated the statutes and broken the everlasting covenant

“Everlasting” seems to have more of the meaning God will not break it, but man can break it.

It is a big call to suggest that this was fulfilled by God for the Jews in OT time.

There is no mention anywhere in Scripture of this being the case, Paul is silent on this, Jesus is silent on this.

I am not suggesting the Jews always kept their side of the relationship, but God did. This again goes back to Jer. 18.

One telling indication of this not being so, was the sign given to John the Baptist regarding how he was to recognise Messiah.
Messiah was to be the One on whom the Holy Spirit would rest and remain upon.

This permanent and remaining presence of the Holy Spirit was, until Jesus, not seen among the Jews.

Jesus indicated that the Holy Spirit would not be available to come with such power and fullness until pentecost, and He did not breathe on them to receive the permanent indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit until after the resurrection.

So we have no evidence of such a significant event taking place before Jesus came and died as the sacrificial Lamb, ending the Old covenant period.

The Old Covenant was not fulfilled and replaced until Jesus came to satisfy its requirements.
Then God himself rent the veil from top to bottom, desecrating His temple and removing the authority given to the OT priesthood.

This was done to mark the end of the promise of His presence with His people by means of temple worship because at that point He fulfilled His promise to permanently indwell His chosen under the New Covenant.

There are a multitude of Scriptures to support this signficant new beginning in the relationship between God and Man.

Never before was this Promise through Jeremiah fulfilled, This is the good news of the Gospel - God in Us...

God’s covenant promises to people are contingent on their future behavior, according to Jer, 18 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Hi Bling,

Thanks for your reply.

The New Covenant Jeremiah was talking about was a covenant to come.

This New covenant involved sealing into righteousness individual believers with the Fear of Himself.

Reading it again...

38 They will be my people, and I will be their God. 39 I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me and that all will then go well for them and for their children after them. 40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me. 41 I will rejoice in doing them good and will assuredly plant them in this land with all my heart and soul.

You are suggesting this was for the Jews and they broke the covenant.

If what you are suggesting was true, then God would be breaking HIS OWN WORD.

His word is clear on this.

THEY WILL NEVER TURN AWAY FROM ME...

God promised to take away individual believers ability to break the covenant.

Remember Paul said that not all Israel are Israel and the Gentiles have been added in to the Vine.

This is the New Covenant right there...

Jew and Gentile in One Vine - sealed against breaking covenant by the indwelling Fear of Him.

It is impossible for this to have been enacted before Messiah came.

God cannot break His OWN WORD.

Praise be to Him who is ever faithful to His Word.

 

[fhansen]

its very very very RARE to hear a modern day preacher preach that salvation can be lost.
This is biblical and we need the truth spoken over us. Blessings

Ironically, perhaps, it's also the historical teaching of the church, east and west.

 

[fhansen]

Hi Bling,

Thanks for your reply.

The New Covenant Jeremiah was talking about was a covenant to come.

This New covenant involved sealing into righteousness individual believers with the Fear of Himself.

Reading it again...



You are suggesting this was for the Jews and they broke the covenant.

If what you are suggesting was true, then God would be breaking HIS OWN WORD.

His word is clear on this.

THEY WILL NEVER TURN AWAY FROM ME...

Do you really believe that every person who heard that message, whether they applied it to themselves or not, was necessarily saved??? Scripture uses lots of language and literary devices, including hyperbole, to encourage and exhort, to warn and to admonish-believers- about the expectation of salvation as well as the possibility of losing it.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Do you really believe that every person who heard that message, whether they applied it to themselves or not, was necessarily saved??? Scripture uses lots of language and literary devices, including hyperbole, to encourage and exhort, to warn and to admonish-believers- about the expectation of salvation as well as the possibility of losing it.

To you first question - NO - I'm not sure where you get that impression from.

To your second statement - NO - Keeping salvation is a New Covenant Promise.

 

[hedrick]

Why is this not a priority? Because in my experience it's not a live issue in the mission and ministry of the church, or the pastoral needs of parishioners.

I suspect part of the reason is that in most of Christianity, salvation isn't thought of as a possession. In traditional Christianity it was common to worry about how you'd be judged in the final judgement. But that doesn't necessarily lead to asking whether salvation can be lost.

It's not necessarily an unreasonable question. It's obvious that people sometimes are as far as we can tell acceptable Christians, and something happens to them. That's just not necessarily expressed by saying that they have lost salvation.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

They left because they did not truly know Him.

Parable of the seed.
Possibly planted on rocky ground?

Many that spent time with Jesus after a while left him.

(His sheep) heard his voice.

M-Bob

 

[Shimokita]

I wouldn't say I'm scared, but I'm not sure that it would be a high homiletical priority for me. Which is to say, of all the things congregations might need to hear, I'm not sure this is near the top of the list...

It may not seem like it but I bet there are plenty of people who need one of those "fire and brimstone" homilies from time to time. I would at least consider doing one every once in a blue moon. There was actually a time when I got one of those at church randomly, and it set me back on the right track away from doing some bad actions. It was actually what I needed at the time. And let's face it, there are plenty of folks doing serious things that need correction, no matter how pious we can try to make ourselves when showing up on Sunday . . .

 

[Gregory Thompson]

its very very very RARE to hear a modern day preacher preach that salvation can be lost.
This is biblical and we need the truth spoken over us. Blessings

I suppose itching ears listen for all sorts of things. who knew?

 

[Paidiske]

It may not seem like it but I bet there are plenty of people who need one of those "fire and brimstone" homilies from time to time. I would at least consider doing one every once in a blue moon. There was actually a time when I got one of those at church randomly, and it set me back on the right track away from doing some bad actions. It was actually what I needed at the time. And let's face it, there are plenty of folks doing serious things that need correction, no matter how pious we can try to make ourselves when showing up on Sunday . . .

Reminding people of the gravity of their decisions, sure. But in my context, people don't tend to think about their relationship with God in the terms that the OP presupposes, so it's a matter of speaking appropriately into that context.

 

[mukk_in]

its very very very RARE to hear a modern day preacher preach that salvation can be lost.
This is biblical and we need the truth spoken over us. Blessings

Indeed. It's scarier to know that even those that have tasted the fruit of the Holy Spirit can fall away (Hebrews 6:4). Of course, others will interpret this differently. The only certainty is the assurance of the indwelling Holy Spirit and obedience to Him.

 

[Contenders Edge]

its very very very RARE to hear a modern day preacher preach that salvation can be lost.
This is biblical and we need the truth spoken over us. Blessings

It is not a matter of whether or not salvation can be lost but whether or not a man can walk away from his salvation and the case can seemingly be made for either side of the debate from the scriptures but in order to best settle the debate, we would have to objectively examine the scriptures both sides use to state their case. Only then might the matter become more clear.