Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

[GodsGrace101]

No, salvation is not a license to sin...

Anyone who is truly saved... would not be simply pulling their salvation card out and going on a rampage.

The proof of salvation is in your works... Kindness, forgiving, selflessness, sympathetic, giving, serving character traits...

These are indicators of salvation...

Some people, however, have trouble with even the simplest of these things. So, judging someones condition of saved or not.... is not up to us.. only God knows the heart of each person.

When we are first saved... we are like baby Christians. Slowly, the old habits and desires should decrease and the new God like traits should increase..

I agree.
But I'm very disturbed by some on these forums that clearly state they could sin if they wanted to but don't want to.

What kind of message is that to a new Christian?
Where does it say in the N.T. that we could sin if we want to?

Jesus said the lawless would be told to depart from Him.
Mathew 7:23

Paul said some with certain behaviors are not going to make heaven.
Romans 13:4-5
Romans 13:8-14

Luke 9:62 jesus said:
"No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, if fit for the Kingdom of God.

Speaking biblical truth is not judging someone's soul....
Indeed, it is those that claim someone was "never saved to begin with" that is judging souls.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I don’t think it makes disobedience ok but it seems inevitable. Jesus said if you love him keep his commandments. He didn’t say some or most. He says keep his commandments. So even if we sin once after being saved we have failed because we didn’t keep his commandments.

Jesus knows human nature.
Do you think He meant that we have to be perfect when He said to keep His commandments?
We will sin, but we could make the effort not to.
Don't you find you sin much less now than before you were saved?
Your attitude is kind of defeatist...we can only do our best and strive for that.
We can't give up because we feel that we're just going to fail.

When I was young and my parents told me to do the dishes and I did them all except I decided to leave a couple pots and two plates then the dishes aren’t done. It doesn’t matter that the kitchen was a disaster and it looks much better I still didn’t finish the job. If I was doing the kitchen for a reward according to my works I do not deserve it because the kitchen isn’t clean. But my parents being merciful and loving me they would say we already bought your gift because we love you. You couldn’t earn this if you tried and if it was based off of your effort you would have failed anyway so be thankful it’s not based on that lol. Big kiss, big hugs and thankfulness all around. Hope that makes a little bit of sense. I didn’t reread for errors lol

You had nice parents.
And, fortunately, we have a nice God.
If we could be perfect, Jesus would not have needed to die.

You did, however, obey your parents and do the best you could.

That's all God wants from us.
Colossians 3:23

 

[Blade]

I agree DAVE! The "free to sin" ..I can see how some would take that down different roads.

You know.. He found me when there was no internet just 3+1 channels on TV. Were ever night they would go off the air. The only time I have ever questioned my salvation was the enemy and then other believers. So many KNOW they have the real truth. What has always shown results fruits was just taking Him at his word.. I just believed John 3:16-17 Rom 10 9-10. And growing up .. a verse I quoted in times of trouble was "and nothing shall by any means heart you".

I am not saved by obeying any commandments. We read "if you love me keep my words/commandments". But NO ONE seems to expand on that. Someone should make a thread.. ask "WHEN did you fall in love with Jesus?" I never meet anyone that "OH I LOVE JESUS SO MUCH" right after they got saved.. how can you love someone you dont know? How many here KNOW HIM?

Dont get me started on "if we love Him we keep His word" there are SO many things you WOULD be doing if you LOVED Him.. KNEW He was the ONLY way to heaven and EVERY person you see .. you have no clue if they are saved.. only could be lost .. and what did we do? BUT WE LOVE JESUS and keep his word?

So.. I am saved.. I am righteous ONLY because I believe in Jesus. He told me this.. and then I found it in HIS word. Never once did He tell me "you best OBEY ME if you want to live forever". There is no "you must LOVE me to get in". Thats not written. And I am human so I can be wrong lol..

 

[JacksBratt]

He was given it by Jesus and he had to do noting because he could do noting, like you know, a death bed confession. Would you tel you dying just saved loved on to get out of that bed if it kills you and do some works?

So, there is different types of salvation? Different for people who become Christian and live a day or two... People who become a Christian and live to be 90 years old.... People who become a Christian knowing that they are seconds from death?

Is this what you are saying?

See, Jesus had the good sense to know the thief not going to be around to do his works or even be good. This is what we call an exception to the rule, plain and simple, that OSAS tries to USE and twist into something else when the truth is so clear.

The OSAS people also got their salvation from Jesus. We also cannot do anything to earn our salvation, or buy it.

What we do... that's just evidence of being already saved.

Here is another, would you expect your quadriplegic roommate to do the same chores you do around the house or would you aromatically know he can't do those things so you don't expect him to?

Your point is understood... but void...

When it comes to "doing" things that may earn your salvation.. there is nothing we can do.. We are spiritual quadriplegics who cannot do anything "of ourselves" to save our souls.

These are some of the most basic actions that anyone, even the Atheist with the slightest bit of common sense/compassion understands, and we should expect Jesus of all people not to do that?

Maybe this is why an atheist is an atheist.. they think that salvation is a wage or payment for services rendured...

In 100% actuality... salvation is 100% gift. You don't earn it... work for it.... pay for it... or get it as a compensation for anything a human is capable of doing..

Works are proof of salvation... not a method of achievement.

The thief on the cross did three things:

1/Admitted that he deserved his penalty
2/ Proclaimed that Christ was innocent
3/ Asked Christ to remember him

That's what we do... and are just as saved....

Any works done.. any services... any kindness.. any giving... anything that mimics Christ's example... will be rewarded in heaven.... not used as a price for admission.

They serve as examples so that others can see Christ through us. Not for our benefit..but for God's glory.

Works based salvation only makes any service self centered. You would be doing it for self gain.. not God's glory.

 

[GodsGrace101]

One word... NO.


We are not required... but a true saved heart will not willingly disobey.
It's not a "God save me... OK, now I"m saved, lets raise hell".

Anyone who has come to see the light of their existence and that they are a sinner with no hope of salvation... got down on their knees and admitted such... believe that Christ is the door and the only way to be forgiven...humbled their self to admit this.... is not going to just carry on the way they were. We become new creatures.

Their desire will be for God.. Their desire will not be to keep sinning... They will keep sinning but their desire will be to turn from all sin.

You answered
NO
(and a hefty NO)
to the simple question:
ARE WE REQUIRED TO OBEY GOD.

You can reason this out as you wish...
but you are not properly representing the biblical truth.

It would be nice to see one verse that says we do not have to obey God...but why ask? It doesn't exist.


What does exist is this:
1 John 5:2-3
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

 

[GodsGrace101]

It's not about how much faith, but what is the OBJECT of our faith. Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost. That is the narrow road.

It was a rhetorical question.

If I can be asked how many works I have to do...
which is a rather silly question...

Then I can ask how much faith is necessary.
I know Jesus said the faith of a mustard seed is sufficient.

It's not a matter of how many works...
it's a matter of obeying God and doing as He desires of us.

 

[truefiction1]

That makes about as much sense as someone claiming to give us a "free gift", but we have to pay for it. (Many deceptive advertisers with try that trick)

Being that as it may be, it's still been the teaching of the Church, the Apostles, and the Lord, for all times, and it never changes.

Salvation has always been free, but it has never been effortless, and it's God's will that it isn't effortless.

 

[bcbsr]

Being that as it may be, it's still been the teaching of the Church, the Apostles, and the Lord, for all times, and it never changes.

Be that as it may? You mean rational thought doesn't enter into issues of interpretation?

 

[truefiction1]

Be that as it may? You mean rational thought doesn't enter into issues of interpretation?

Rational thought is not the same thing as grace.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Keeping His commandments is not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God. So once again, it's not about must or else for those who love Jesus, but will. IF validates WILL. We must not confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

NO.
The way you're describing WILL means that we lose our free will and God MAKES US obey.....

Here's the verse again:
IF YOU LOVE ME, YOU WILL KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.
John 14:15

Jesus is not saying we will definitely keep His commandments because that would be forcing us and removing our free will....

He's saying that we will keep His commandments as much as our free will allows us to. We can still decide NOT to listen to the Holy Spirit. BUT,
IF we love Jesus, we will most assuredly do our bests to keep His commandments.

Jesus knew we would not be perfect.
If anyone knows this...GOD DOES.

 

[bcbsr]

Rational thought is not the same thing as grace.

"Understanding" is also not the same thing as grace but it's necessary when it comes to interpreting the scriptures.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Yes. However, the reason why we are required to obey God is not in order to become saved, but because we have been and are being saved. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to obey God, so participating in this training by grace to live in obedience to God through faith isn't something that we need to do in order to earn our salvation, but rather it is what our salvation from living in disobedience to God looks like. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law (1 John 3:4), so again being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's Law through faith is what our salvation from living in disobedience to God's Law looks like.

Agreed.

And yes, we are saved from a few different things.

 

[GodsGrace101]

This is speaking of those who alleged faith in Christ, outwardly identified with Christ, grafting themselves into Christianity on the surface, but not with a deeply rooted faith. Knowing about Christ, but not knowing him personally. They're like the ground associate with the path upon with the seed of the word fell, whose faith wasn't rooted, so when trouble came because of the word, like pressure from the Neo-Circumcision groups, they departed from the faith and turned to a salvation-by-works soteriology, such is advocated by many on these forums. They've fallen from the gospel of grace into a performance based salvation concept. And this due to the influence of those who promote such a soteriology, whose condemnation is justified as Paul said, "Even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!"

But as for those of us who have genuine faith in Christ, we cannot be moved. Heb 3:14 "For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end" As it indicates, since they did not confidently believe steadfastly, therefore they had not been partakers of Christ.

For Once Saved, Always Saved to be in effect, the Once Saved has to first occur.

What's a neo circumcision group?

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

I beg to differ... I was an obedient child... from what my parents tell me.. However, when I was not obedient, I was disciplined... ya.. the old fashioned way... on my butt.

I was obedient... not perfect... not defiant... not contentious...

I guess this is my struggle. There are so many different words to take into consideration. I truly dont understand how I can be an obedient child but also disobedient at the same time. It seems to be one or the other. It’s one of those things that confuse me lol

Jesus knows human nature.
Do you think He meant that we have to be perfect when He said to keep His commandments?
We will sin, but we could make the effort not to.
Don't you find you sin much less now than before you were saved?
Your attitude is kind of defeatist...we can only do our best and strive for that.
We can't give up because we feel that we're just going to fail.




You had nice parents.
And, fortunately, we have a nice God.
If we could be perfect, Jesus would not have needed to die.

You did, however, obey your parents and do the best you could.

That's all God wants from us.
Colossians 3:23

got it! Thanks so much for helping me understand better. I’m glad I started posting instead of just reading lol

 

[GodsGrace101]

Except that obedience IS a work.

Obedience is a work?

Thanks for confirming the N.T. teachings.
Faith saves us initially...
works are necessary to continue being saved,
because it's necessary to obey God.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I guess this is my struggle. There are so many different words to take into consideration. I truly dont understand how I can be an obedient child but also disobedient at the same time. It seems to be one or the other. It’s one of those things that confuse me lol

got it! Thanks so much for helping me understand better. I’m glad I started posting instead of just reading lol

You should post because God will speak to your heart and reach out to make you understand.

I had never read a bible when I became saved.
All I knew was that I loved Jesus and He loved me.
Everything else you learn will be cream on the cake.

If you understand what repent means, you'll understand much more about your walk with God.

 

[truefiction1]

"Understanding" is also not the same thing as grace but it's necessary when it comes to interpreting the scriptures.

True understanding only comes by grace, and grace is given only to the humble, and the Apostles tell us that we must humble ourselves before God by obeying his Commandments in order to receive grace. I've already provided two passages from the Gospels in which this is what their teaching is, so if you have "understanding", and "grace" then you ought to know that it's pointless to argue otherwise.

 

[bcbsr]

What's a neo circumcision group?

By Neo-Circumcision I'm referring to modern sects and Christians today who advocate similar concepts as the sect of the Circumcision did in the early church, namely making salvation contingent upon one's involvement in religious rituals and obeying commandments.

The Circumcision: You must undergo a religious ritual and obey commandments to be saved.

The Neo-Circumcision: You must undergo a religious ritual and obey commandments to be saved.

 

[bcbsr]

True understanding only comes by grace, and grace is given only to the humble, and the Apostles tell us that we must humble ourselves before God by obeying his Commandments in order to receive grace. I've already provided two passages from the Gospels in which this is what their teaching is, so if you have "understanding", and "grace" then you ought to know that it's pointless to argue otherwise.

Again you're making assumptions about your interpretation, ending up with what is essentially the same kind of salvation by works soteriology Paul opposed.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Which is the usual double talk of salvation-by-works Christians claiming "it's not dependent on doing works, it's dependent on use doing works out of obedience in order to qualify to be saved". Same thing. Same philosophy as righteousness by the law. Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live (gain eternal life) by them." Rom 10:5

You don't have to obey God --- that's up to you.
You don't have to do anything of what Jesus taught----that's up to you.

Our salvation is up to us.
I just hope we all understand what God expects from us.

Could it be faith only?
Is that all Jesus had to say in 3 1/2 years of preaching and teaching?

When He sent the Apostles on the Great Commision in Mathew 28...I do wonder what He meant when he said to TEACH all nations.

Teach them what?