No Graven Images...

[Albion]

I'd like to see someone do it. For my part, the paintings of "Korean Jesus" had a big impact on me. They gave me a realization of the universality of our Faith that I really hadn't had before. The Blessed Virgin dressed in a hanbok and our Lord wearing the traditional stovepipe hat, stuff that I associated with my mom's family made it more real to me.

.
Yeh, this doesn't seem at all wrong to me.

Its a rare person who would not realize that Jesus, if depicted in traditional Korean clothing, actually did not look exactly that way.

 

[Barney2.0]

The truth of this matter does not depend upon which noun we choose to use (venerate, respect, honor, worship, etc) but ON WHAT IS DONE WITH THE IMAGE.

The noun is based on what we do with the image not the other way around. And as far as I know know, no one offers offerings to the icons or statues in Church or believes the people being depicted in them can actually offer salvation.

 

[Kenny'sID]

When you fall on your face to someone or something you bow down to it. I’ll even use John Gill’s commentary to support my point:

And Joshua rent his clothes,.... As was usual in those ancient times, on hearing bad news, and as expressive of grief and trouble (r); see Genesis 37:29,

and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the Lord, until the eventide; in a posture of adoration and prayer, in which he continued till even; how long that was cannot be said, since the time is not mentioned when the army returned from Ai; very probably it was some time in the afternoon: this was done before the ark of the Lord, the symbol of the divine Presence, not in the most holy place, where that usually was, and into which Joshua might not enter, but in the tabernacle of the great court, over against where the ark was:

he and the elders of Israel; either the elders of the people in the several tribes, or rather the seventy elders, which were the sanhedrim or council, and which attended Joshua, and assisted him as such:

and put dust upon their heads; another rite or ceremony used in times of mourning and distress, and that very anciently, before Joshua's time and after, see Job 2:12; and among various nations; so when Achilles bewailed the death of Patroclus, he is represented by Homer (s) taking with both his hands the black earth, and pouring it on his head; so Aristippus among the Athenians is said (t) to sprinkle dust on his head in token of mourning on a certain account.

(r) "Tum pius", Aeneas, &c. Virgil. Aeneid. l. 5. prope finem. (s) , &c. Iliad. 18. ver. 23. Vid. Odyss. 24. "Sparsitque cinis", &c. Seneca, Troad. Acts 1. Chorus. (t) Heliodor. Aethiop. l. 1. c. 13.

I've already looked up his actions of falling to the ground and the others putting dust on their face...there is absolutely no indication anyone was bowing to the ark , and nothing that connected their actions to worshiping anything. As much as you'd like to think so, it simply is not bowing, they jut aren't the same thing, and they never will be unless you want so bad for them to be, you will believe it.. But let's give it one more try, show me something at least fairly credible that agree his particular actions constituted worship or bowing to the Ark, and if the source has proven that, we can go from there. Fair enough?

, Gods not going to make an exception to the ark if they’re the same thing.

First of all God does make acceptations.

But either way, there is no acceptation to make here because no one was bowing/worshiping the Ark to begin with...you still have not show that to be true. You've only made comments it's a fact with no proof whatsoever. We need solid reason the believe that is true, please find some.

And it's starting to worry me a bit why you seem to have dropped the claim Moses bowed to whatever you said he bowed to because instead of showing me when I asked, I got no reply. And though you won't be goaded for a reply, you have to know how that looks. I'm telling you that so you can have the opportunity to fix it.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Dear friends,

The second commandment requires some interpretation.

Ex 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 You shall not make for yourself an idol of any kind, or an image of anything in the heavens above, the earth below, or the waters under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,…

But during the construction of the Ark of Covenant - craftsmen were required to make images of the Cherabim.
1 Kings 6:23 In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim, each ten cubits high, out of olive wood. 24One wing of the first cherub was five cubits long, and the other wing was five cubits long as well. So the full wingspan was ten cubits.…

And here, Moses is instructed to make a graven image...
Numb 21:8 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live.” 9So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. If anyone who was bitten looked at the bronze serpent, he would recover.

So the question remains - what is the second commandment referring to?

If the issue was the worship of God alone and not just referring to making images, then does that open the commandment to idols of fleshly passion in our lives?

How about objects of worship in our churches - crosses, saints, crucifixes, Mary...

Let's try and have a civil discussion about this...

This also includes the technique of "visualisation" that has crept into the theology of some Charismatic churches, where we visualise something that we want to come to pass and we have faith in what we visualise and expect it to happen. This is a type of mind-control sorcery, using our imagination as a force to achieve results. It goes along with positive confession and positive thinking - other Christian Science mind-control techiques.

Also, there are those who visualise Jesus in their imagination, and want this imaginary Jesus to appear to them. And an appearance, through a dream or vision does happen, but it is not the Jesus of the Bible. Other's have had "visitations" of Jesus as He has appeared in classical and popular art works, but this is a counterfeit Jesus supplied by a lying spirit. Jesus has not come in person yet, so any personal appearance of Jesus is a demon masquerading as Him. Jesus is still at the right hand of the Father, interceding for us, and He will not appear in person until He comes again with all His saints.

I went to an AOG church here in Auckland, and during the worship time while people were standing, the pastor went around whispering in people's ears, "Jesus is here", causing folk to shake and fall over. But he was not promoting the Jesus of the Bible. He was promoting his imaginary Jesus, because Jesus was not "here" at all! And the physical manifestations were Kundalini, not the Holy Spirit! I was lucky to get out of that place without some spirit of divination attaching itself to me!

 

[Carl Emerson]

Jesus appeared to me face to face when I was about 8 and it impacted my life greatly for good. I can't agree with your theology. I do agree that there are counterfeits but we need to be careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

 

[Albion]

The noun is based on what we do with the image not the other way around.

Of course.

no one offers offerings to the icons or statues in Church or believes the people being depicted in them can actually offer salvation.

Lets use common, less extreme, examples of worship and see where we stand.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Jesus is still at the right hand of the Father, interceding for us, and He will not appear in person until He comes again with all His saints

I'm all for a healthy skepticism when people claim that Our Lord appeared to them. Evidence of some kind would certainly be acceptable if it can be provided.

But still, I'm a bit reluctant to say it will never happen.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'm all for a healthy skepticism when people claim that Our Lord appeared to them. Evidence of some kind would certainly be acceptable if it can be provided.

But still, I'm a bit reluctant to say it will never happen.

It can't happen. We have the Holy Spirit, who is God, dwelling in us. He is representing Jesus before He comes. He doesn't need to come yet to encourage believers. The Holy Spirit does that, through the supernatural gifts of the Spirit working through our fellow believers and through the insights we get from God's word as He shows us.

Any dream, vision, or appearance is false if it represents an image of Jesus. It is a counterfeit. These counterfeits can be very persuasive, and are usually believed by those who believe that God can give "new Scripture" through "revelation". We see so much of it in the Charismatic movement, and it is no wonder that so many are deceived.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Archaeologists found numerous statuettes of Asherah in Israel from the time of 2Kings. The remains of a Hebrew fort were discovered along a trading route near the edge of the Judean Desert on the way to the Red Sea. Kuntillet Ajrud was excavated by Israeli archaeologists when Israel occupied the Sinai Desert. Archaeologists found an image a man and woman with the inscription, "Yahweh and his Asherah" at Kuntillet Ajrud.
Ancient 'Yahweh And His Asherah' Inscriptions At Kuntillet ‘Ajrud Remain An Unsolved Biblical Mystery | Ancient Pages

They did not know they were not supposed to make images of their god(s).

Yes, I remember reading about this find.

I don't think it was a matter of "they didn't know". They'd already received the command from Moses. Just physical evidence that they disobeyed and thus consequently came under judgement for idolatry (as well as other transgressions).

 

[Garlic Magnet]

Jesus appeared to me face to face when I was about 8

Well, I- WAIT WHAT

 

[Carl Emerson]

This happened before I was born again.

He simply said that there was nothing in this life that I did that He would not see...

This was very impacting for one who was not always a good boy...

I remember it as plain as day - I was standing in my sisters room and He appeared - told me who He was, and spoke the words as I mentioned.

This has been an anchor point in my life of faith.

Since very young I have had a passion to be like Him.

I has been a rocky road but His Love and faithfulness has been amazing.

Sorry if this shakes your theology, I have nothing to loose by being open and honest about how He met me and how He continues to be my faithful friend who I deeply love.

 

[Carl Emerson]

It can't happen. We have the Holy Spirit, who is God, dwelling in us. He is representing Jesus before He comes. He doesn't need to come yet to encourage believers. The Holy Spirit does that, through the supernatural gifts of the Spirit working through our fellow believers and through the insights we get from God's word as He shows us.

Any dream, vision, or appearance is false if it represents an image of Jesus. It is a counterfeit. These counterfeits can be very persuasive, and are usually believed by those who believe that God can give "new Scripture" through "revelation". We see so much of it in the Charismatic movement, and it is no wonder that so many are deceived.

Do you not believe that Paul had an encounter with Jesus before He was saved?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Do you not believe that Paul had an encounter with Jesus before He was saved?

He was the only one, because he was chosen by God to be the 12th Apostle. because the office of Apostle of Christ had to have had a personal encounter with Christ. The fruit of that experience is that he fulfilled the other criteria of the office of Apostle and the fact that what he wrote was Scripture shows it as well. No other person who has claimed to have had any experience of a dream or vision of Christ has ever shown the same fruit. This was a unique visitation for a specific purpose.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So He can do it if He wants then...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So He can do it if He wants then...

It was because Matthias was chosen by the other Apostles, and therefore did not fit the criteria for being an Apostle of Christ, although he may have been an apostle of the church, appointed by the church as one of the Five Fold Ministries. But Jesus wanted to ensure that Paul fitted all the criteria, so He appeared in person for Paul to witness the resurrected Christ, personally appointed Paul, gave him Scriptural authority to write new revelation, appointed along with the other Apostles to lay the foundation of the church, and to do signs and wonders in the name of Christ.

It is quite possible for Him to appear for specific purposes. There is the story about a group of Christians fleeing from a team of Jihadists who were intent on catching up with them to kill them. Suddenly a dust storm came up between the two groups and a voice spoke out of it saying, "I am Jesus. Why are you trying those whom I love?" This caused all the Jihardists except one to receive Christ as Saviour, and they said that through their efforts it was only going to be a matter of time because the last one was going to be won to the Lord.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So it does happen then...

How does this stack up with what you said here...

It can't happen. We have the Holy Spirit, who is God, dwelling in us. He is representing Jesus before He comes. He doesn't need to come yet to encourage believers. The Holy Spirit does that, through the supernatural gifts of the Spirit working through our fellow believers and through the insights we get from God's word as He shows us.

Any dream, vision, or appearance is false if it represents an image of Jesus. It is a counterfeit. These counterfeits can be very persuasive, and are usually believed by those who believe that God can give "new Scripture" through "revelation". We see so much of it in the Charismatic movement, and it is no wonder that so many are deceived.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So it does happen then...

How does this stack up with what you said here...

Because there is no record that he appeared in that way to Christian believers. They had and have the Holy Spirit in them whom He said would teach them all things. We won't see Jesus in person until we are taken up to meet Him in the air.

Paul was an unbeliever when Jesus appeared to him in the blinding light on the Damascus Road. He does not record any further visitation by Jesus.

The Jihadists were unbelievers when they heard the voice of Jesus in the midst of the sand storm. They never actually saw Jesus in person.

John saw the resurrected Christ while he was on Patmos, but then he was an Apostle of Christ, and He appeared to John for a specific purpose to give him the revelation of end time events and His final victory.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Exactly and I was also not born again at that age...

Also, it is not wise to mount a theology on what the bible does not say.

Let the readers decide...

I was 8 (or so) Jesus appeared to me face to face. I wasn't Born Again.

This experience of Him is still sustaining even 65 years later.

I have been led in a fruitful and unique way and there is still plenty to come.

Read some of my testimony here if you are interested.
Jesus's Ministry

It is no big deal, I have no profile I just want to keep doing what He asks me.

I also want to encourage others to follow Him and enjoy an exciting life of service through surrender to Him in Jesus.

 

[Barney2.0]

I've already looked up his actions of falling to the ground and the others putting dust on their face...there is absolutely no indication anyone was bowing to the ark , and nothing that connected their actions to worshiping anything. As much as you'd like to think so, it simply is not bowing, they jut aren't the same thing, and they never will be unless you want so bad for them to be, you will believe it.. But let's give it one more try, show me something at least fairly credible that agree his particular actions constituted worship or bowing to the Ark, and if the source has proven that, we can go from there. Fair enough?



First of all God does make acceptations.

But either way, there is no acceptation to make here because no one was bowing/worshiping the Ark to begin with...you still have not show that to be true. You've only made comments it's a fact with no proof whatsoever. We need solid reason the believe that is true, please find some.

And it's starting to worry me a bit why you seem to have dropped the claim Moses bowed to whatever you said he bowed to because instead of showing me when I asked, I got no reply. And though you won't be goaded for a reply, you have to know how that looks. I'm telling you that so you can have the opportunity to fix it.

It says clearly that he out his face on the ground facing the ark and according to John Gill’s commentary was directing his worship to God’s worship in the ark. I don’t even know why your still arguing on the matter when the verse of Joshua 7:6 is pretty clear that Joshua fell before the ark which means he bowed to it, end of story. You can’t give me a reasonable explanation for what else he was doing when he fell before the ark which is bowing to it. You know bowing to something isn’t equivalent to worshipping something right? According to Deuteronomy 10:17 God makes no exceptions to the law, so did God contradict himself when he commanded Moses to make graven images or is there a difference between graven images and images of veneration. I really don’t even need scripture to prove Moses bowed down to the ark all Jews and Israelites bowed down to the ark facing the temple and so did Joshua, so I haven’t dropped the claim if all Jews bowed to the ark throughout history, then obviously Moses did aswell.

 

[Kenny'sID]

It says clearly that he out his face on the ground facing the ark and according to John Gill’s commentary was directing his worship to God’s worship in the ark. I don’t even know why your still arguing on the matter when the verse of Joshua 7:6 is pretty clear that Joshua fell before the ark which means he bowed to it, end of story. You can’t give me a reasonable explanation for what else he was doing when he fell before the ark which is bowing to it. You know bowing to something isn’t equivalent to worshipping something right? According to Deuteronomy 10:17 God makes no exceptions to the law, so did God contradict himself when he commanded Moses to make graven images or is there a difference between graven images and images of veneration. I really don’t even need scripture to prove Moses bowed down to the ark all Jews and Israelites bowed down to the ark facing the temple and so did Joshua, so I haven’t dropped the claim if all Jews bowed to the ark throughout history, then obviously Moses did aswell.

That's the same stretch it's always been, but you clearly will only see what you were told to believe.

Why am I arguing? I was hoping to help you see, but it's clear can that won't be happening.