No Graven Images...

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Okay. One more time. Let this sink in.
The Bible says FLEE idolatry.
It does not say that you can flirt with idolatry by keeping such idols around.
In fact, even the brass serpent was later turned into an idol.
The problem is why did they keep it around?
It fulfilled it's purpose at one point in history.
Yet, they kept it around beyond the purposes of God, and so they turned it into idol by keeping it. The Ark of the Covenant, and the serpent on the pole were never meant to be things that were permanent.
 
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,560
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
No. God can make exceptions by direct intervention. This did not meant they can create their own images or idols. For example: God told His people to kill certain nations. But to kill without these orders would have been murder. Even the offering of Jesus could be misunderstood by another (Who does not have all the facts of Scripture) can think that He was simply just taking his own life for no good cause, but this would not be true. Jesus offered His life as a ransom for others.
I didn't say make your own images or idols. I said, there were angels on top of the ark of the covenant. There are other examples in Scripture of something similar. If you go read the commandment, especially in Hebrew... it says to not make any graven images or statues and bow down to them. Hanging a photograph of a sunset on the wall is not breaking this commandment. Hanging a photograph of a sunset on a wall and then bowing to it... as if the "sun" was a god (as in previous pagan religions) THAT would be breaking the commandment.

That said... you have to walk as your understanding allows. If you don't think you can take a picture, don't. You answer for you... and to God not to me.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I didn't say make your own images or idols. I said, there were angels on top of the ark of the covenant. There are other examples in Scripture of something similar. If you go read the commandment, especially in Hebrew... it says to not make any graven images or statues and bow down to them. Hanging a photograph of a sunset on the wall is not breaking this commandment. Hanging a photograph of a sunset on a wall and then bowing to it... as if the "sun" was a god (as in previous pagan religions) THAT would be breaking the commandment.

That said... you have to walk as your understanding allows. If you don't think you can take a picture, don't. You answer for you... and to God not to me.

I am referring to pictures of Jesus or idol statue images that others normally regard as statues of deity like figures through out time. Also, we can tell when somebody is idolizing the sun image. They have that image everywhere. We can see this in a particular church today. This in my view is wrong because that would be like putting up a bunch of Elvis pictures and saying you are not idolizing Elvis.

So while a person can have a painting with a picture of the sun in the background, it would be another matter if they had only a picture of the sun (Which is identified with idolatry of the pagan sun worshipers of the past). We should not copy the way of pagans.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ken Rank
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,560
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I am referring to pictures of Jesus or idol statue images that others normally regard as statues of deity like figures through out time. Also, we can tell when somebody is idolizing the sun image. They have that image everywhere. We can see this in a particular church today. This in my view is wrong because that would be like putting up a bunch of Elvis pictures and saying you are not idolizing Elvis.
Thanks for clarifying.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It's kind of like a person justifying murder because they are pagans (by pointing out in the Bible how God ordered the destruction of pagan nations in the OT). But we are not in the OT anymore. We are under a New Covenant, with new commands. A believer under the OT Covenant was not to even kill another unless God gave them approval to do so. That's the point. So the making of idols should be forbidden because there is no direct order from God that they can make them like with the order of the making of the Ark of the Covenant and or the serpent on the pole. They each served their own temporary unique purposes and they were not ever used as a part of bowing down to these kind of things. So when folks make idols or statues today and bow down to them, they are not following what the Bible says, but they are doing their own thing.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: ADisciple
Upvote 0

Wrangler

Active Member
Jun 2, 2019
205
93
In World But Not Of World
✟23,648.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
So the question remains - what is the second commandment referring to?

As a BIG follower of the 1C, I always saw the 2C as a prohibition on worshipping man-made objects.
 
Upvote 0

Barney2.0

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 1, 2017
6,003
2,336
Los Angeles
✟451,221.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
It was the presence of God above the arc that He was paying homage to...
Which was represented by an ark with images on it, just as icons and statues represent Christ and holy Saints who we pay our respects to.
 
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,560
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
"[Hezekiah] removed the high places and broke the sacred pillars, cut down the wooden image and broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made; for until those days the children of Israel burned incense to it, and called it Nehushtan." 2 Kings 18:4 NKJV
Indeed... but the point (and this is surely not lost to you) is that they had burned incense to it. I have always believed that this is exactly why very few know where the ark is today. That would become the most worshiped object in history if it were found and displayed.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Sabertooth
Upvote 0

nonaeroterraqueous

Nonexistent Member
Aug 16, 2014
2,915
2,724
✟188,987.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Which was represented by an ark with images on it, just as icons and statues represent Christ and holy Saints who we pay our respects to.

The ark was the Mercy Seat, was it not? It seems to me that it was the equivalent of a throne (upon which the presence of God sat). All things pointed to an empty space, which, I might suggest, is the negative of an idol.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SaintCody777

The young, curious Berean
Jan 11, 2018
315
317
29
Miami, Florida
✟53,520.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
Using the simplicity of Copper's Rule, it's clear that the 2nd Commandment means not to BOW DOWN to or SERVE graven images.

How did we get the notion that Jesus had a hippy-looking bearded face?
Catholics and Orthodox tell me that when Jesus fell and one of the women came to wipe Him during His walk to be crucified, His blood printed His face on the towel. That's probably not in Scripture, but it's the universal notion of Jesus' face. This theory might be true.

But still, Jack Chick with his faceless Jesus and the producers of the 1959 Ben Hur movie, who cut off Jesus' face, understood exactly what God meant when He said no graven images (Exodus 20:4-5).

This is not applying to all images. On the opposite extreme of misunderstanding this commandment, are the Amish and Mennonites that take this commandment to the extreme to forbid ALL images to the point that even the dolls are faceless. And even a group of Mennonites in Canada had fought in a court to not even have their pictures taken for their driver's licences.
If that interpretation is true, then Moses would have violated it when He made two cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant, which also had faces, and so would Soloman with his temple art.

"Graven" images mean making an image with divine worth or one that represents a spirit or a deity. We don't really know what God looks like.
What most people don't know about the Golden Calf made by Aaron in Exodus 32, is that he made the calf to depict God (verse 4). Even the NAB, Catholic Bible, in a footnote said that the Calf represented Yahweh/Jehovah.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Barney2.0

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 1, 2017
6,003
2,336
Los Angeles
✟451,221.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The ark was the Mercy Seat, was it not? It seems to me that it was the equivalent of a throne (upon which the presence of God sat). All things pointed to an empty space, which, I might suggest, is the negative of an idol.
The ark had images and statues on it so it was an image of veneration in which the form of God manifested in, which means the practice of generating or showing respect to images is Biblical.
 
Upvote 0

Kenny'sID

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 28, 2016
18,185
7,001
69
USA
✟585,304.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Joshua fell on his face before the Ark, so he bowed to it, the word bow doesn’t need to be used here it’s obvious to anyone who can read.

I'm guessing you did not draw that conclusion on your own but were taught it...correct? I'm also guessing someone had a hole to fill because they were told what they were doing was wrong, so they stretched that scripture to fill that hole out of personal need and not because it was true. I stick with the fact that falling on ones face is not bowing to the ark, and another reason I believe that is because it doesn'r say he "bowed before the ark". Then I look at the commentaries to see where they stand, one of which I posted below, and at least that one seems to agree. Falling on ones face is not bowing, and it does not represent bowing. Once again someone needed it to mean that just as you seem to, so it does. I'll include the link to where I got that commentary from as there are more on that page, and you may want to look through them and maybe you can find something to back your view.

So you admit that God for a while made an exception to allow Idolatry? According to Deuteronomy 10:17 God makes no exceptions or partiality when it comes to the law so once again did God contradict himself or not?

I'm not certain what that is in reference to. Maybe it was to something I mentioned awhile back and forgot or for whatever reason I'm just not able to connect it. But no matter why, if you could please post a quote of what that's in reference to, it would help me in getting an answer for you, and I apologize for the trouble if I'm overlooking something obvious.

According to the dictionary meaning of graven image it’s an image that’s worshipped, the dictionary meaning of veneration is to show great respect towards something. There not the same thing.

Did that dictionary have other meanings? And the why's one would bow down are not what I was getting at right now, my disagreement was referring to bowing down to it, period, regardless of intentions.

Also, did we ever get to where exactly Moses bowed to idols, or did I miss your posting the scripture I requested?
 
Upvote 0

Barney2.0

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 1, 2017
6,003
2,336
Los Angeles
✟451,221.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I'm guessing you did not draw that conclusion on your own but were taught it...correct? I'm also guessing someone had a hole to fill because they were told what they were doing was wrong, so they stretched that scripture to fill that hole out of personal need and not because it was true. I stick with the fact that falling on ones face is not bowing to the ark, and another reason I believe that is because it doesn'r say he "bowed before the ark". Then I look at the commentaries to see where they stand, one of which I posted below, and at least that one seems to agree. Falling on ones face is not bowing, and it does not represent bowing. Once again someone needed it to mean that just as you seem to, so it does. I'll include the link to where I got that commentary from as there are more on that page, and you may want to look through them and maybe you can find something to back your view.



I'm not certain what that is in reference to. Maybe it was to something I mentioned awhile back and forgot or for whatever reason I'm just not able to connect it. But no matter why, if you could please post a quote of what that's in reference to, it would help me in getting an answer for you, and I apologize for the trouble if I'm overlooking something obvious.



Did that dictionary have other meanings? And the why's one would bow down are not what I was getting at right now, my disagreement was referring to bowing down to it, period, regardless of intentions.

Also, did we ever get to where exactly Moses bowed to idols, or did I miss your posting the scripture I requested?
When you fall on your face to someone or something you bow down to it. I’ll even use John Gill’s commentary to support my point:

And Joshua rent his clothes,.... As was usual in those ancient times, on hearing bad news, and as expressive of grief and trouble (r); see Genesis 37:29,

and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the Lord, until the eventide; in a posture of adoration and prayer, in which he continued till even; how long that was cannot be said, since the time is not mentioned when the army returned from Ai; very probably it was some time in the afternoon: this was done before the ark of the Lord, the symbol of the divine Presence, not in the most holy place, where that usually was, and into which Joshua might not enter, but in the tabernacle of the great court, over against where the ark was:

he and the elders of Israel; either the elders of the people in the several tribes, or rather the seventy elders, which were the sanhedrim or council, and which attended Joshua, and assisted him as such:

and put dust upon their heads; another rite or ceremony used in times of mourning and distress, and that very anciently, before Joshua's time and after, see Job 2:12; and among various nations; so when Achilles bewailed the death of Patroclus, he is represented by Homer (s) taking with both his hands the black earth, and pouring it on his head; so Aristippus among the Athenians is said (t) to sprinkle dust on his head in token of mourning on a certain account.

(r) "Tum pius", Aeneas, &c. Virgil. Aeneid. l. 5. prope finem. (s) , &c. Iliad. 18. ver. 23. Vid. Odyss. 24. "Sparsitque cinis", &c. Seneca, Troad. Acts 1. Chorus. (t) Heliodor. Aethiop. l. 1. c. 13.

Joshua 7 Gill's Exposition

What does prostrating represent then? My reference to Deuteronomy 10:17 is to show God has no partiality when it comes to his commandments so it means there’s a difference between images of veneration and graven images, Gods not going to make an exception to the ark if they’re the same thing. You can just simply go to Merriam Webster on epf the best online dictionaries out there and type in the words graven images and see what comes up, images of worship again. Also bowing down to images isn’t as a sign of respect isn’t wrong unless your actually intending worship all Jews in the Old Testament bowed down to the temple I don’t even need scripture to prove that or that the temple had images and icons in it.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The ark had images and statues on it so it was an image of veneration in which the form of God manifested in, which means the practice of generating or showing respect to images is Biblical.
The truth of this matter does not depend upon which noun we choose to use (venerate, respect, honor, worship, etc) but ON WHAT IS DONE WITH THE IMAGE.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jipsah

Blood Drinker
Aug 17, 2005
12,294
3,674
70
Franklin, Tennessee
✟218,095.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
What about people who bow down to Mary statues?
As a practicing Korean (or half Korean, anyway), I dearly love comments about "bowing down".<Laugh>
 
Upvote 0

Jipsah

Blood Drinker
Aug 17, 2005
12,294
3,674
70
Franklin, Tennessee
✟218,095.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
It would be interesting to contemplate what Jesus and the Holy Family, etc. would look like if the same cultural license were taken by an American artist. Christ, in a polo shirt, is seen healing someone in a shopping mall, etc. For a Nativity scene, Joseph and Mary are beaming as they push one of those baby strollers, while three wise men hold boxed presents wrapped with ribbons, and so on.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jipsah

Blood Drinker
Aug 17, 2005
12,294
3,674
70
Franklin, Tennessee
✟218,095.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It would be interesting to contemplate what Jesus and the Holy Family, etc. would look like if the same cultural license were taken by an American artist. Christ, in a polo shirt, is seen healing someone in a shopping mall, etc. For a Nativity scene, Joseph and Mary are beaming as they push one of those baby strollers, while three wise men hold boxed presents wrapped with ribbons, and so on.
I'd like to see someone do it. For my part, the paintings of "Korean Jesus" had a big impact on me. They gave me a realization of the universality of our Faith that I really hadn't had before. The Blessed Virgin dressed in a hanbok and our Lord wearing the traditional stovepipe hat, stuff that I associated with my mom's family made it more real to me. My Korean kin actually wore that stuff, on very special occasions, anyway, but I'd never seen anyone in real life dressed in the robes and such that the He always seemed to wear on the pictures in American churches. I was never bothered that He was shown having Asian rather than European features because I'd grown up seeing one as unremarkable as the other. (Except for girls: girls are supposed to look Korean ^_^)
 
Upvote 0