No Graven Images...

[Julian of Norwich]

Can looking in the mirror be a making of an idol? I'm not saying everyone does this - but it could be, couldn't it, by some people. People don't make gestures at their images (usually) but it can be an ego-centric "worship" - right? I am asking the question because I once saw a TV show with an elderly woman from the W. Virginia mountains who was aghast at seeing a mirror in someone else's house. I've had a niggling doubt ever since. What do you think?

 

[Blade]

Key words "objects of worship". I have never had any. Got a anchor cross, picture of Jesus (old one kids bought). Lol.. I dont kiss the cross or talk to the picture.. which is silly.. its not him.

Again .. key words "objects of worship". Toss out all the crosses and pictures..nothing changes. We already put SO many things before him.. as if we worship them.

Someone said "Catholic bashing thread" <-----that was their words.. no one here. Putting things before God.. worshiping things 1st other then God, Christ... doesn't have a demonstration attached to it.

 

[BrotherD]

Deuteronomy 4:16-19
16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, 17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, 18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: 19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the Lord thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

The Bible teaches Jesus is God correct? They children of Israel weren't allowed to make any image of God. So what makes us any better?

Nobody has a clue of what Jesus look like, so when people make pictures or statues of him they are actually honoring a person that isn't Christ. The same goes for Mary, nobody knows what she looks like. Personally I don't need any image, because i want to be attached to the Father and our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus by his Holy Spirit. We should only want to please him, not a saint or martyr or an anything.

 

[Barney2.0]

When does respect become worship? That is a question to be addressed.

When you think to the image as another God Like what happened to the brass serpent, when respectful veneration turned into worship and adoration of a god.

 

[Albion]

When you think to the image as another God Like what happened to the brass serpent, when respectful veneration turned into worship and adoration of a god.

So you wouldn't think it improper or a violation of the First Commandment if a person went through all the acts, gestures, words, petitions, and etc. that everyone associates with worshipping a god, even possibly including attributing to the object of your veneration the power or authority to grant your requests?

Am I right about that?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Do we think that God would've been okay with painted or drawn images simply because He only referred to graven ones? This simple question sinks the claims of iconoclasts. The Lord didn't mean for this sentence to be understood on its own- He connected it to a prohibition against serving any "god" but Him.

So, graven images? Perfectly fine. Bowing down and worshipping? Also good. Worshipping the images (or other gods)? Not kosher.

Yes.

Having required Moses to make a graven image of a serpent it is clear that the heart of the second commandment is like the first... Worship God alone.

 

[Carl Emerson]

In cases that God instructed them to make an image in the Scripture, it is okay because it's God's command.

(I can't say the same regarding private revelations where people claim Jesus told them to make an image of Himself).

But I don't think people bowed down to the cherubs or worshipped the bronze snake in the Bible.

They did worship the bronze snake and were chastised for it...

 

[Alithis]

It simply means do not make any article,relic,symbol etc that represents an idol,false god, demon etc.

It is not talking about something representing God the only God.

Yeah riiight.... ( this is incredulously stated)
Because we burn insence to our flower vase.
Bow down to it
Kiss its base
Carry through the streets in honouring it etc..

Its nothing to do with it if represents another God..the moment you elivate it and base yourself to it in any form of homage
And you made it with intent to do so...
Your simply sinning against God in opposition to Gods clearly stated will.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Dear friends,

The second commandment requires some interpretation.

Ex 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 You shall not make for yourself an idol of any kind, or an image of anything in the heavens above, the earth below, or the waters under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,…

But during the construction of the Ark of Covenant - craftsmen were required to make images of the Cherabim.
1 Kings 6:23 In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim, each ten cubits high, out of olive wood. 24One wing of the first cherub was five cubits long, and the other wing was five cubits long as well. So the full wingspan was ten cubits.…

And here, Moses is instructed to make a graven image...
Numb 21:8 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live.” 9So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. If anyone who was bitten looked at the bronze serpent, he would recover.

So the question remains - what is the second commandment referring to?

If the issue was the worship of God alone and not just referring to making images, then does that open the commandment to idols of fleshly passion in our lives?

How about objects of worship in our churches - crosses, saints, crucifixes, Mary...

Let's try and have a civil discussion about this...

As long as it doesn't get up and start walking and talking....

Revelation 13:15 And was given to it to give breath to the image<1504> of the beast that also it should be talking
and should be making that as many as if-ever no should be worshiping to the image<1504> of the beast, they may be being killed.

Matthew 22
18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, "why make ye trial of Me, ye hypocrites?
19 Show me the tribute money". And they brought unto Him a denari.
20 And He saith unto them, "whose is this image<1504> and superscription?"
21They say unto Him, "Caesar's".............

Mark 12
15 "Shall we give, or shall we not give?" But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them,
"why make ye trial of Me? Bring me a denari, that I may see it".
16 And they brought it. And He saith unto them, "whose is this image<1504> and superscription?" And they said unto him, "Caesar's".

Luke 20
23 But He perceived their craftiness, and said unto them,
24 "Show me a denari. Whose image<1504> and superscription hath it?" And they said, "Caesar's".

Jhn 19:12
12 From this time was Pilate seeking to release him, and the Jews were crying out, saying, 'If this one thou mayest release, thou art not a friend of Caesar; every one making himself a king, doth speak against Caesar.'
15 and they cried out, 'Take away, take away, crucify him;' Pilate saith to them, 'Your king shall I crucify?' the chief priests answered, 'We have no king except Caesar.'

Behold! The denari is shown in Revelation

Revelation 6:
5 And when it up-opens the third seal , I hear of the third living one saying: "Be coming"! And I am looking and I see and Behold! A black horse and the one-sitting-down upon it having a Yoke<2218> in the hand of him. [Deut 28:18/Acts 15:10]
6 And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "a measure of grain/wheat a denari and three measures of barleys a denari, and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring"."

 

[Carl Emerson]

Nobody i know of in the Catholic church worships, crucifixes, statues, saints or Mary. If anybody thinks otherwise, then it proves they dont know or understand Catholicism.

I am betting this turns out to be yet another Catholic bashing thread!

There were two parts to my opening thread...

The worship of Idols external to ourselves.

The worship of idols in our unredeemed nature.

The second is an issue across all denominations - How many teen age idols represent an arrogance, an entitlement, a rebellion against authority.

We tend to become in behaviour what we worship.

 

[Alithis]

There were two parts to my opening thread...

The worship of Idols external to ourselves.

The worship of idols in our unredeemed nature.

The second is an issue across all denominations - How many teen age idols represent an arrogance, an entitlement, a rebellion against authority.

We tend to become in behaviour what we worship.

Dont leave out the sports idols bro.
.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I believe you are right about this. However I also think that calling anything for which we have strong affection by the term idol is a modern metaphor. When idol is used in scripture, I think it means an actual image, contrary to the proposition given to us in the original post (below) for our consideration.

Do we not create idols in our unredeemed nature - money, status, whatever?

 

[Albion]

There were two parts to my opening thread...

The worship of Idols external to ourselves.

The worship of idols in our unredeemed nature.

The second is an issue across all denominations - How many teen age idols represent an arrogance, an entitlement, a rebellion against authority.

We tend to become in behaviour what we worship.

That's very philosophical, but I believe that the First Commandment really means idols... not something else about which we might say these days we have turned into an idol.

You know.

 

[Carl Emerson]

And they don't attribute any supernatural powers to their deceased loved ones.

Ancestor worship is very strong in our indigenous culture among the Maori.

 

[Carl Emerson]

If it's intended as an act of honor and veneration, no.

If it's intended as an act of worship, yes.

If the physical act is the same in both cases...

God will judge what we do - what we claim will not be a defence.

 

[Barney2.0]

So you wouldn't think it improper or a violation of the First Commandment if a person went through all the acts, gestures, words, petitions, and etc. that everyone associates with worshipping a god, even possibly including attributing to the object of your veneration the power or authority to grant your requests?

Am I right about that?

If a person thinks that the image can act on it’s own as a deity then that’s idol worship. As far as I can tell no Christian Church actually has graven images in it in the sense of adoring an image such as devoting sacrifices to it and believing in it’s ability to grant salvation among other things.

 

[Laureate]

In cases that God instructed them to make an image in the Scripture, it is okay because it's God's command.

This is an excellent point, for the command is also, do not murder, yet Alôhâyîm ordered the destruction of many by them.

The order to eliminate many did not annul the commandment to not murder in the least bit, this was (in the natural sense) a mitigating circumstance.

In the Spiritual sense, the commandments apply to what one does, or does not do in their hearts, seeing how it is not us who kills and makes alive, whereas we perform adultery, when we imagine it in our heart, and it is His Spirit which we grieve (which bears us, establishes the work of our hands, and every step taken), whether for good (according to His Righteousness) or for evil (handing us over to our own imaginations).

One can not bow down to another Alôhâyîm, because there is no other Alôhâyîm, but that which one can imagine in their own heart. ❤

But I don't think people bowed down to the cherubs or worshipped the bronze snake in the Bible.

True, at first they did not, but later on they did begin to worship the bronze snake, as a result the King had it taken and melted down.

 

[Carl Emerson]

There's a practice of burying a St Joseph statue in your yard if you desire to sell your house. How to Bury St joseph Statue | St Joseph Statue

I would say this ranks at about an 8 on a 10 scale of compelling an action from a higher power based on manipulation of a material object, in this case, a statue of St. Joseph. Would burying a statue in your yard to petition /compel St Joseph to facilitate your home sale qualify as idolatry?

Would a St Christopher medal around ones neck for good luck or protection be in the same category - is this an idol in the broad sense?

 

[Albion]

If a person thinks that the image can action it’s own as a deity then that’s idol worship.

You think that's all that bowing down to false gods is about??

 

[Barney2.0]

You think that's all that bowing down to false gods is about??

It all comes down to what you believe about what your bowing to.