No Graven Images...

Kenny'sID

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Actually Exodus 20:5 clarifies this by saying do not worship them so it’s talking about images of worship not general images or icons. If that’s how you want to go with it, then Moses was an idol worshipper and you should remove your profile picture along with any photo in your house.

I was under the impression we were talking graven images here, not pictures.

Moses?
 
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Kenny'sID

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Actually Exodus 20:5 clarifies this by saying do not worship them so it’s talking about images of worship not general images or icons. If that’s how you want to go with it, then Moses was an idol worshipper and you should remove your profile picture along with any photo in your house.

Would you agree the following means we should not do one or the other, as in not worship them or bow down to them whether we worship them or not? Take note of the "or" there.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them;
 
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Grip Docility

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I was under the impression we were talking graven images here, not pictures.

Moses?

There are people that fear Spiritual Artwork of any kind, because of the command.

The issue is also that some people try to make distinction between the Stone and the Book of the Law (Deuteronomy 31:26)... The Stone is a symbol, while the Book of the Law contains the 10, as well as 603 following (Mitzvahs/Laws)... which totals 613.

All blessings in Jesus Christ to you.
 
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NeedyFollower

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What about people who bow down to their Bibles?

What about people who bow down to their beds when kneeling by them to pray?

Out of here......I knew it would become a Catholic bashing thread :doh:
I am so not in favor of bashing anyone although I am not a catholic in the roman sense . It seems to me that the whole world has been caught up in idol worship of some form or fashion . I recently spoke to an immigrant from mexico to the US . He said he believed in God but LOVED the USA . Is God not supposed to have first place ?
I believe Protestants can worship traditions and images of truths . I know many people I grew up with worship "the church " in which I grew up . My hope is that our faith is in God through His Son Jesus Christ who bought us , for He is eternal .
I know many people who have great reverence for the bible but never read it . So it may as well not exist . ( In all practicality , it does not exist for them . )
As it relates to the OP's question . When Jacob wanted to offer a sacrafice to God after wrestling with Him and receiving a blessing , the Lord told him to stack up stones just like he found them . Do not put a chisel to them . It seems to me anyway , that God knows that what ever we touch , we end up worshiping ...in the sens of " Look what I did ! " .. I do not know why we tend to worship , love and nurture inanimate objects but we seem to . What would we spend more money on ...orphans from Haiti or a new ( or old ) church building ? I wrote this to you but I promise it was not directed at catholics any more than all of us . ( The whole body of Christ . )
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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I see idolatry whenever anyone bows before an artificial image,

whenever they pray to it,

whenever they burn incense to it,

and whenever they lay flowers and gifts at its feet.

They say that they do not worship it, that they only venerate it, but that's what the Hindus say about their sacred cows. It's just another euphemism. They say that it is not their god, but only a symbol of their God; yet, that's exactly how the ancient Greek pagans treated their idols. They were only symbols, focal points, references, et cetera, but they were idols, nonetheless.
 
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Albion

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As for the blanket statement...
Quote .."
Nobody i know of in the Catholic church worships, crucifixes, statues, saints or Mary. If anybody thinks otherwise, then it proves they don't know or understand Catholicism." .
Not really. For one thing, the Catholic Church calls it worship, too. She merely says it is a different kind of worship from the worship that is directed towards God.

But more than that, it's like that old saying about "If it looks like a duck, if it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck...its a duck." If people engage in the acts of worship, then it's reasonable to conclude that they are engaged in worship, even if they claim some mental reservation or re-define it.
 
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Loversofjesus_2018

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Yes, like really. Those things you mention are our opinion. It's what the bible says for us. :)
But our opinions don’t matter. Either we know for sure or we don’t know. There is no in between.
 
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Chris V++

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There's a practice of burying a St Joseph statue in your yard if you desire to sell your house. How to Bury St joseph Statue | St Joseph Statue

I would say this ranks at about an 8 on a 10 scale of compelling an action from a higher power based on manipulation of a material object, in this case, a statue of St. Joseph. Would burying a statue in your yard to petition /compel St Joseph to facilitate your home sale qualify as idolatry?
 
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Cis.jd

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Would bowing down to Mary be a violation of the second commandment? I've seen people talk to the gravestones of their beloved deceased ones; and salute the gravestones of fallen war heroes.

But then they don't bow down to the gravestones. So the bowing down/ kneeling down to Marian statues seems a little different.
Bowing is only a gesture. You don't need to bow at something/someone to worship it. We are not required to bow in front of Mary or Saint/Angel statues, we can stand or sit on something during the meditation. That is what bowing is.

It is more of a gesture/position that has been a cultural norm for most christians to meditate. The gestures don't define worship, it's the intent. I can salute or even plank in front of an image, and if my intention was for that to be devotion than it is more of an act of worship than any catholic "bowing".
 
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Grip Docility

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I think people need to be rational about this matter. Sometimes we need pictures and stuff to focus our internal understanding.

I do not believe that the Catholic Church is practicing "Idolatry", but facilitating an atmosphere that turns peoples minds to biblical matters and above all, Jesus Christ.

I've even heard Christians go on about how the Crucifix shouldn't have Jesus on the Cross, still....

God endowed the ability of Free Thinking and Creativity upon mankind. The fact that many people like to use that ability to Glorify God, most likely doesn't tick God off.

Now if a person actually thinks the items are God... well, they would be wrong and don't understand what Jesus was saying when He explained this... Matthew 23:17

I maintain that the Catholic Church (The Brick and Mortar, not the Invisible Universal BOC)... is full of many... shocker... MEMBERS of the BOC.

The whole "the Mother Church" is the Beast and Anti Christ babble is the most naive idea within Pop-Christianity.
 
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Albion

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Bowing is only a gesture. You don't need to bow at something/someone to worship it. We are not required to bow in front of Mary or Saint/Angel statues, we can stand or sit on something during the meditation. That is what bowing is.

It is more of a gesture/position that has been a cultural norm for most christians to meditate. The gestures don't define worship, it's the intent. I can salute or even plank in front of an image, and if my intention was for that to be devotion than it is more of an act of worship than any catholic "bowing".
That's probably correct, but many people do a lot more than that; and there comes a point at which any reasonable person should say, in all honesty, that what's going on is indistinguishable from worshipping God.
 
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ChicanaRose

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Bowing is only a gesture. You don't need to bow at something/someone to worship it. We are not required to bow in front of Mary or Saint/Angel statues, we can stand or sit on something during the meditation. That is what bowing is.

It is more of a gesture/position that has been a cultural norm for most christians to meditate. The gestures don't define worship, it's the intent. I can salute or even plank in front of an image, and if my intention was for that to be devotion than it is more of an act of worship than any catholic "bowing".

Do you mean like the Thai version of respect?
 
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Cis.jd

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That's probably correct, but many people do a lot more than that; and there comes a point at which any reasonable person should say, in all honesty, that what's going on is indistinguishable from worshipping God.

I don't disagree. I've seen several videos from Mexico and other 3rd world countries, not every catholic is educated and regardless of us being under the church, many catholics do retain some of their native cultures (or myths if you will) such as Catholics who are from countries with Spanish-colonial history.
 
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Barney2.0

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I was under the impression we were talking graven images here, not pictures.

Moses?
A graven image is an image of idol worship not comparable to a religious image used for respect or to remember the person depicted in it.
 
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Barney2.0

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Would you agree the following means we should not do one or the other, as in not worship them or bow down to them whether we worship them or not? Take note of the "or" there.
yes we shouldn’t make a graven image to bow or worship it, a graven image is an image of worship as another god not a normal image we see in Church.
 
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Dear friends,

The second commandment requires some interpretation.

Ex 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 You shall not make for yourself an idol of any kind, or an image of anything in the heavens above, the earth below, or the waters under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,…

But during the construction of the Ark of Covenant - craftsmen were required to make images of the Cherabim.
1 Kings 6:23 In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim, each ten cubits high, out of olive wood. 24One wing of the first cherub was five cubits long, and the other wing was five cubits long as well. So the full wingspan was ten cubits.…

And here, Moses is instructed to make a graven image...
Numb 21:8 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live.” 9So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. If anyone who was bitten looked at the bronze serpent, he would recover.

So the question remains - what is the second commandment referring to?

If the issue was the worship of God alone and not just referring to making images, then does that open the commandment to idols of fleshly passion in our lives?

How about objects of worship in our churches - crosses, saints, crucifixes, Mary...

Let's try and have a civil discussion about this...
Both the Old Testament prophet who penned the commandment as well as those to whom it was addressed knew precisely what it meant: That is that they were not to worship the gods of the pagans with whom they often shared territory, nor to fashion such gods as those pagans worshiped. Religious art or artifacts glorifying the God of Israel is/are not harmful to God's people.
 
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The pairs of cherubim I think are highly instructive. Since they were at both ends facing each other, they both led the eye toward the middle, toward the mercy seat, which symbolized the throne of God. But there was no graven image of God himself, because he is unseen.
He became seen when He became flesh, so Christ can now be depicted, and He is.
 
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