No Graven Images...

Carl Emerson

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Dear friends,

The second commandment requires some interpretation.

Ex 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 You shall not make for yourself an idol of any kind, or an image of anything in the heavens above, the earth below, or the waters under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,…

But during the construction of the Ark of Covenant - craftsmen were required to make images of the Cherabim.
1 Kings 6:23 In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim, each ten cubits high, out of olive wood. 24One wing of the first cherub was five cubits long, and the other wing was five cubits long as well. So the full wingspan was ten cubits.…

And here, Moses is instructed to make a graven image...
Numb 21:8 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live.” 9So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. If anyone who was bitten looked at the bronze serpent, he would recover.

So the question remains - what is the second commandment referring to?

If the issue was the worship of God alone and not just referring to making images, then does that open the commandment to idols of fleshly passion in our lives?

How about objects of worship in our churches - crosses, saints, crucifixes, Mary...

Let's try and have a civil discussion about this...
 

TuxAme

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Do we think that God would've been okay with painted or drawn images simply because He only referred to graven ones? This simple question sinks the claims of iconoclasts. The Lord didn't mean for this sentence to be understood on its own- He connected it to a prohibition against serving any "god" but Him.

So, graven images? Perfectly fine. Bowing down and worshipping? Also good. Worshipping the images (or other gods)? Not kosher.
 
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ChicanaRose

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Dear friends,
But during the construction of the Ark of Covenant - craftsmen were required to make images of the Cherabim.
1 Kings 6:23 In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim, each ten cubits high, out of olive wood. 24One wing of the first cherub was five cubits long, and the other wing was five cubits long as well. So the full wingspan was ten cubits.…

And here, Moses is instructed to make a graven image...
Numb 21:8 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live.” 9So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. If anyone who was bitten looked at the bronze serpent, he would recover.

In cases that God instructed them to make an image in the Scripture, it is okay because it's God's command.

(I can't say the same regarding private revelations where people claim Jesus told them to make an image of Himself).

But I don't think people bowed down to the cherubs or worshipped the bronze snake in the Bible.
 
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TuxAme

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In cases that God instructed them to make an image, it is okay because it's God's command.

I don't think people bowed down to the cherubs or worshipped the bronze snake though.
It's always okay to make an image because simple carving isn't what God was prohibiting. You said it yourself- no one was worshipping the snake or Ark. You acknowledge a connection between the two commands.
 
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ChicanaRose

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It's always okay to make an image because simple carving isn't what God was prohibiting. You said it yourself- no one was worshipping the snake or Ark. You acknowledge a connection between the two commands.

I didn't argue it's okay to always make an image, and it is not necessary for you to convince me of that. If that is what you believe, then I respect that. But please refrain from imposing it on me
 
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Lost4words

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Nobody i know of in the Catholic church worships, crucifixes, statues, saints or Mary. If anybody thinks otherwise, then it proves they dont know or understand Catholicism.

I am betting this turns out to be yet another Catholic bashing thread!
 
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Not David

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Nobody i know of in the Catholic church worships, crucifixes, statues, saints or Mary. If anybody thinks otherwise, then it proves they dont know or understand Catholicism.

I am betting this turns out to be yet another Catholic bashing thread!
They hated him because he told them the truth.
 
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crossnote

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How about objects of worship in our churches - crosses, saints, crucifixes, Mary...
How about any image that usurps devotion that would otherwise be given to God? This can even be erected in our mind that our heart devotes itself to.
"You shall have no other gods before Me." this speaks of any thing coming before God, not just physical idols. One of the Reformers rightly said 'our hearts are an idol factory'.
Bonus question. Do the images on our TVs and computer screens fall under the 1st Commandment?
 
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Sabertooth

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But I don't think people [snipped] worshipped the bronze snake in the Bible.
"[Hezekiah] removed the high places and broke the sacred pillars, cut down the wooden image and broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made; for until those days the children of Israel burned incense to it, and called it Nehushtan." 2 Kings 18:4 NKJV
 
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ChicanaRose

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"[Hezekiah] removed the high places and broke the sacred pillars, cut down the wooden image and broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made; for until those days the children of Israel burned incense to it, and called it Nehushtan." 2 Kings 18:4 NKJV

Thank you.
 
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thecolorsblend

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How about objects of worship in our churches - crosses, saints, crucifixes, Mary...
Those items are not "objects of worship". At least, not in the sense that they are worshiped. Anybody who does that is on very thin ice indeed. They may facilitate worship of God though, which is perhaps what you intended to say.
 
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Sketcher

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Dear friends,

The second commandment requires some interpretation.

Ex 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 You shall not make for yourself an idol of any kind, or an image of anything in the heavens above, the earth below, or the waters under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,…

But during the construction of the Ark of Covenant - craftsmen were required to make images of the Cherabim.
1 Kings 6:23 In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim, each ten cubits high, out of olive wood. 24One wing of the first cherub was five cubits long, and the other wing was five cubits long as well. So the full wingspan was ten cubits.…

And here, Moses is instructed to make a graven image...
Numb 21:8 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live.” 9So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. If anyone who was bitten looked at the bronze serpent, he would recover.

So the question remains - what is the second commandment referring to?

If the issue was the worship of God alone and not just referring to making images, then does that open the commandment to idols of fleshly passion in our lives?

How about objects of worship in our churches - crosses, saints, crucifixes, Mary...

Let's try and have a civil discussion about this...
The pairs of cherubim I think are highly instructive. Since they were at both ends facing each other, they both led the eye toward the middle, toward the mercy seat, which symbolized the throne of God. But there was no graven image of God himself, because he is unseen.
 
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ChicanaRose

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Those items are not "objects of worship". At least, not in the sense that they are worshiped. Anybody who does that is on very thin ice indeed. They may facilitate worship of God though, which is perhaps what you intended to say.

What about people who bow down to Mary statues?
 
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Garlic Magnet

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The second commandment . . .

Friendly reminder that Roman Catholics, Old Catholics, and Lutherans number the Decalogue in a different manner than Protestants, Jews, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox. We take after the manner of St. Augustine who took the second commandment to be, "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God."
 
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Lost4words

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What about people who bow down to Mary statues?

What about people who bow down to their Bibles?

What about people who bow down to their beds when kneeling by them to pray?

Out of here......I knew it would become a Catholic bashing thread :doh:
 
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