Christianity and blood sacrifice

CelticRebel

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You realize that the Orthodox are not the only ones who believe in baptismal regeneration.

Jean Chauvin, know to history as John Calvin, believed in Our Lady's perpetual virginity.

Irenaeus of Lyons said the apostolic succession preserves purity of doctrine.

Yes, I realize that. And I couldn't be a member of any denomination that taught baptismal regeneration.

I know Calvin, Luther, and others held to Mary's perpetual virginity. But it contradicts scripture.

I can see the value of apostolic succession. But it didn't do much to preserve purity of doctrine in Anglicanism. Further, the NT teaches only two offices. I try to follow the NT, as I understand it. I don't deny that apostolic succession is a valid form of ministerial polity.
 
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Not David

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Yes, I realize that. And I couldn't be a member of any denomination that taught baptismal regeneration.

I know Calvin, Luther, and others held to Mary's perpetual virginity. But it contradicts scripture.

I can see the value of apostolic succession. But it didn't do much to preserve purity of doctrine in Anglicanism. Further, the NT teaches only two offices. I try to follow the NT, as I understand it. I don't deny that apostolic succession is a valid form of ministerial polity.
  • The Bible talks about Baptism regeneration.
  • You know there was a Church before the Bible?
 
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Mathetes66

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"Is it possible to be a Christian and not believe in blood sacrifice -- that is, to not believe that God requires or ever required blood sacrifice to forgive sins?"

No! It is that serious. The verses you quoted were out of context & ignoring the majority of the Bible concerning the NECESSITY of blood sacrifices according to the Old Covenant & especially the New Covenant established by Christ's once for all sacrifice & shedding His own blood to ratify the New Covenant.

To attribute the precious shed blood of the Savior of the world to pagan beliefs & rituals is tantamount to being an unbeliever & trampling the blood of Christ that establishes the New Covenant & blaspheming & bringing the rage of the Holy Spirit.

You are in danger my friend for rejecting what Scripture plainly teaches and what Christianity has taught since the first century. Jesus taught it. The Apostles & writers of the NT taught the necessity of the blood of Christ being sacrificed to atone for the sins of all people.

Heb 10:19-22 Therefore, brothers,c since we have confidence to ENTER THE HOLY PLACES BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS, by the NEW & living way that He opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh & since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts SPRINKLED CLEAN from an evil conscience & our bodies washed with pure water.

Heb 10:26-31 For if we go on sinning deliberately after RECEIVING THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, there no longer remains a SACRIFICE FOR SINS, but a fearful expectation of judgment & a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has SET ASIDE THE LAW OF MOSES DIES WITHOUT MERCY on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much WORSE punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God & HAS PROFANED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT BY WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED & has OUTRAGED the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Heb 9:6-28 These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties, but into the second ONLY the high priest goes & he but ONCE a year & NOT WITHOUT TAKING BLOOD, which he offers for himself & for the unintentional sins of the people.

8By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing (which is symbolic for the present age). According to this arrangement, gifts & sacrifices are offered that CANNOT PERFECT the CONSCIENCE of the worshiper, but deal only with food & drink & various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.

Redemption Through the Blood of Christ

11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater & more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) He entered ONCE FOR ALL into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats & calves but BY MEANS OF HIS OWN BLOOD, THUS SECURING AN ETERNAL REDEMPTION.

13For if the blood of goats & bulls & the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, HOW MUCH MORE WILL THE BLOOD OF CHRIST, who through the eternal Spirit OFFERED HIMSELF WITHOUT BLEMISH to God, PURIFY our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

15ThereforeH e is the MEDIATOR OF A NEW COVENANT, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.

17For a will takes effect ONLY AT DEATH, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. THEREFORE NOT EVEN THE 1ST COVENANT WAS INAUGURATED WITHOUT BLOOD. For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he TOOK THE BLOOD of calves & goats, with water & scarlet wool & hyssop & SPRINKLED both the book itself & all the people, saying,

“This is the BLOOD OF THE COVENANT THAT GOD COMMANDED FOR YOU.” And in the SAME WAY HE SPRINKLED WITH THE BLOOD both the tent & all the vessels used in worship. Indeed, under the law ALMOST EVERYTHING IS PURIFIED WITH BLOOD--& WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD--THERE IS NO FORGIVENESS OF SINS.

23Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

25Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with BLOOD not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared ONCE FOR ALL at the end of the ages to PUT AWAY SIN BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF.

27And just as it is appointed for man to die once & after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been OFFERED ONCE TO BEAR THE SINS OF MANY, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Heb 7:27 Unlike those other high priests, He does not need to offer sacrifices every day. They did this for their own sins first & then for the sins of the people. But Jesus did this ONCE FOR ALL when He offered himself AS THE SACRIFICE FOR THE PEOPLE'S SINS.

Heb 13:12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate, to SANCTIFY THE PEOPLE BY HIS OWN BLOOD.

I Pet 1:18,19 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were REDEEMED from the empty way of life you inherited from your forefathers, but with THE PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST, A LAMB WITHOUT BLEMISH OR SPOT.

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, THE LAMB OF GOD, who takes away the sin of the world!

Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and the entire flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which He PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD.

Romans 3:25 God presented Him as AN ATONING SACRIFICE THROUGH FAITH IN HIS BLOOD, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand.

I Cor 5:7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a NEW unleavened batch, as you really are. For Christ, OUR PASSOVER LAMB, HAS BEEN SACRIFICED.

I Pet 1:1,2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the exiles of the Dispersion throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia & Bithynia, chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ AND BE SPRINKLED WITH HIS BLOOD: May grace & peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the MEDIATOR OF A NEW COVENANT & TO THE SPRINKLED BLOOD that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Matt 26:27,28 Then He took the cup, gave thanks & gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. For this is MY BLOOD, which confirms the COVENANT between God & his people. IT IS POURED OUT AS A SACRIFICE TO FORGIVE THE SINS OF MANY.

Luke 22:20 In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, "This cup is THE NEW COVENANT IN MY BLOOD, WHICH IS POURED OUT FOR YOU.

I John 1:6,7 If we say we have fellowship with Him yet walk in the darkness, we lie & do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another & THE BLOOD OF JESUS HIS SON CLEANSES US FROM ALL SIN.

Revelation 7:14 Sir," I answered, "you know." So he replied, "These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes & made them white IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is IN THE BLOOD & I have given it to you upon the altar to make an ATONEMENT FOR YOUR SOULS; for it is THE BLOOD that maketh an atonement for the soul.

There are many more but I will stop here.
 
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DamianWarS

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Is it possible to be a Christian and not believe in blood sacrifice -- that is, to not believe that God requires or ever required blood sacrifice to forgive sins? The Old Testament prophets, in contradiction to the Jewish sacrificial system, stated that God does not require blood sacrifice. Jeremiah has God stating it directly, and Jesus affirms and repeats this. Thus, I contend that the OT blood sacrifices were not from God but were influenced by the pagan religions.

Accordingly, my view of the Atonement encompasses the early church doctrines: Ransom/Christus Victor/Recapitulation. I reject all Western, Latin views of the atonement.

Ps 50 is a good one:

(v9-15)
I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens, for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills. I know every bird in the mountains, and the insects in the fields are mine. If I were hungry I would not tell you, for the world is mine, and all that is in it. Do I eat the flesh of bulls or drink the blood of goats?

“Sacrifice thank offerings to God, fulfill your vows to the Most High, and call on me in the day of trouble; I will deliver you, and you will honor me.”

here's another out of the box thinking for you, do we need the fall of man in order to need Christ as our Redeemer?

Is the sacrificial system pagan? I would say it is an ancient mind set of how to approach God and it was needed in order for religion systems to function in a human capacity. God uses it to show us his grace and love within these pagan, never-ending and never fulfilled systems, but somehow God does it differently and in the end fulfilling them by using himself as a sacrifice.

To me we are not God and so are unable to approach God regardless of what fallen state we call ourselves. A brilliant white piece of paper will burn up just as quick in a furnace as a tarnished and spoiled piece of paper, in the end, it really doesn't matter how spotless the paper is. The paper needs something to cover it in order to approach the power of the furnace. And this is about how counter-intuitive it is, relationship with God is like a piece of paper having a relationship with fire.

What God does is create a system that allows his creation to approach him in an intimate capacity and he does this through a sacrificial system which points to Christ, this was always the plan since God uttered the words "Let there be light" as his first act was an act of salvation to a dark and desolate world. We follow this system because this is his design and so as a merger piece of paper we don't really have the luxury to comment on it especially since it happens work.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Is it possible to be a Christian and not believe in blood sacrifice -- that is, to not believe that God requires or ever required blood sacrifice to forgive sins? The Old Testament prophets, in contradiction to the Jewish sacrificial system, stated that God does not require blood sacrifice. Jeremiah has God stating it directly, and Jesus affirms and repeats this. Thus, I contend that the OT blood sacrifices were not from God but were influenced by the pagan religions.

Accordingly, my view of the Atonement encompasses the early church doctrines: Ransom/Christus Victor/Recapitulation. I reject all Western, Latin views of the atonement.
Blood sacrifice is part of it for sure, Jesus was the last scapegoat we'd ever need though. When people say the temple sacrifices of goats and bulls will be set up again, I totally disagree with that.

Penal substitution tends to take the legal parable in Romans too literally. The human justice system of the Roman empire is not the way God thinks, it's a parable using something that does exist to explain what we cannot see.

Since we are "born again" by the Holy Spirit, the blood of Jesus is an important part of that since we're co-heirs with Christ.
 
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Chris V++

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Is it possible to be a Christian and not believe in blood sacrifice -- that is, to not believe that God requires or ever required blood sacrifice to forgive sins? The Old Testament prophets, in contradiction to the Jewish sacrificial system, stated that God does not require blood sacrifice. Jeremiah has God stating it directly, and Jesus affirms and repeats this. Thus, I contend that the OT blood sacrifices were not from God but were influenced by the pagan religions.

Accordingly, my view of the Atonement encompasses the early church doctrines: Ransom/Christus Victor/Recapitulation. I reject all Western, Latin views of the atonement.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet, but what was it that the jews sprinkled on their door frames when in captivity in Egypt so that the Angel of Death would pass them over?
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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The sacrifice of Jesus was being faithful to his mission, his vocation even though it turned out to involve his blood and death. So what sacrifice do we make? None, because Jesus made it? I don't think so. We must follow his example and accept whatever comes our way as a consequence of Living our mission, the Gospel way of life.
 
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Calvin_1985

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Jeremiah 7:22-23 has God saying directly that He did not command sacrifice. Hosea 6:6, God says He desires mercy and not sacrifice. Jesus affirms this in Matthew 9:13.

So, where did sacrifice come from if not from God? The surrounding pagan religions.

I'm not denying the crucifixion. I'm denying the meaning of it in Western theology.
You need to look at the context of the passages. What you're doing is taking the phrase "I will have mercy and not sacrifice out of it's context of the surrounding passages. You have to look at who he is talking to and what was going on. You are flirting with denying the blood of Jesus and that is going to lead you down a path of hell on earth.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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Is it possible to be a Christian and not believe in blood sacrifice -- that is, to not believe that God requires or ever required blood sacrifice to forgive sins? The Old Testament prophets, in contradiction to the Jewish sacrificial system, stated that God does not require blood sacrifice. Jeremiah has God stating it directly, and Jesus affirms and repeats this. Thus, I contend that the OT blood sacrifices were not from God but were influenced by the pagan religions.

Accordingly, my view of the Atonement encompasses the early church doctrines: Ransom/Christus Victor/Recapitulation. I reject all Western, Latin views of the atonement.
Well first of, there is no such thing as a “blood” sacrifice. The spilling of blood simply means killing or the death of something. (He spilled his blood for his nation.) everyone understands that means he died for his nation.

Secondly the entire mosaic law and the law that was before Moses was illustrative. That is why the prophets said God does not want or require animal sacrifice.

That does not change the fact that justice had to be administered for the crimes of humanity. It does not change the fact that God, as the head of a government, could not wisely forgive crimes committed without an antonmemt. (NT: There is no forgiveness of sin without the spilling of blood.)
 
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Robin Mauro

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Is it possible to be a Christian and not believe in blood sacrifice -- that is, to not believe that God requires or ever required blood sacrifice to forgive sins? The Old Testament prophets, in contradiction to the Jewish sacrificial system, stated that God does not require blood sacrifice. Jeremiah has God stating it directly, and Jesus affirms and repeats this. Thus, I contend that the OT blood sacrifices were not from God but were influenced by the pagan religions.

Accordingly, my view of the Atonement encompasses the early church doctrines: Ransom/Christus Victor/Recapitulation. I reject all Western, Latin views of the atonement.
I think you are misquoting the Word. Please include exact scriptures to which you refer.
 
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Der Alte

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I referenced three scriptures passages in which God explicitly says that He did not command sacrifice and does not desire it. This is not just what I "think." These are the words of God and Jesus. That being the case, one is compelled to ask where did blood sacrifice come from.
You said you referenced 3 scriptures "in which God explicitly says He did not command sacrifices and does not desire it." You didn't say which three so I looked up some.
Let’s start with Leviticus17:11 “For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.”
God specifically said that the blood makes atonement for sin.
There are 69 verses in the OT which speak of offering the blood of a lamb.
There are 96 verses which speak of offering the blood of a bullock.
I think that Psa 51:16 might be one of your proof texts.

Psa 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
This does say God does not delight in burnt offerings, but a few verses later we read this.
Psa 51:19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
Did someone sneak this verse in and nobody noticed it until now?
Isa 1:11-14 might be another one of your proof texts.

Isaiah 1:11-14
(11) To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
(12) When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
(13) Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
(14) Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.[/quote]
This certainly says God did not delight in or require blood sacrifices. But who is God talking to? Let’s look at verse 10, which introduces this passage.
Isaiah 1:10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
Jer 7:22 might be another one of your proof texts.
Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
This is true God did not command burnt offerings or sacrifices “in the day” that He brought them out of Egypt. God gave the ten commandments 3 months after they left Egypt and the commandment to sacrifice Exodus 29:11
So it seems we only have one verse where God says He did not want sacrifices. But He said He wanted "the knowledge of God more than burnt offering." He did not say “the knowledge of God NOT sacrifices."

Hos 6:6
(6) For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.


 
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basilbear76

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Yes, I realize that. And I couldn't be a member of any denomination that taught baptismal regeneration.

I know Calvin, Luther, and others held to Mary's perpetual virginity. But it contradicts scripture.

I can see the value of apostolic succession. But it didn't do much to preserve purity of doctrine in Anglicanism. Further, the NT teaches only two offices. I try to follow the NT, as I understand it. I don't deny that apostolic succession is a valid form of ministerial polity.
Not true.

The NT shows bishops, presbyters (elders), and deacons, as well as minor ministers: "helps and administration" in ST. Paul's words.

The only Marian doctrine I discuss on line is the truth that her Son is indeed fully God and fully man in one and the same Person.

This is a new idea to many Christians, odd to say.
 
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bling

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Is it possible to be a Christian and not believe in blood sacrifice -- that is, to not believe that God requires or ever required blood sacrifice to forgive sins? The Old Testament prophets, in contradiction to the Jewish sacrificial system, stated that God does not require blood sacrifice. Jeremiah has God stating it directly, and Jesus affirms and repeats this. Thus, I contend that the OT blood sacrifices were not from God but were influenced by the pagan religions.

Accordingly, my view of the Atonement encompasses the early church doctrines: Ransom/Christus Victor/Recapitulation. I reject all Western, Latin views of the atonement.
Excellent observation.

I agree with almost everything you said except “I contend that the OT blood sacrifices were not from God, but were influenced by the pagan religions”.

God apparently forgave Gentiles prior to the cross without animal sacrifices, so sacrifices were not to get or allow God to forgive people. God also forgave a poor Jewish person of minor (unintentional) sins, who correctly offered a bag of flour (Lev.5) so there was no blood sacrifice with that.

I also agree with your: “rejecting all Western, Latin views of the atonement” but those are only the ones you know about. They all have huge issues.

I do not know how you feel about “eating meat”, but the priests always humanely killed the animals and some after cooking them on the altar were eaten especially with the Fellowship Sacrifices.

Foe me to explain my understanding of atonement takes lots of words and I can only give you the Bible to reference, but just on the “blood” concept:

Most atonement theories are really making God out to be blood thirsty, having to have innocent blood to forgive or at least control His anger.

Satan being appeased or paid off by Christ’s blood, makes God to look weak and satan to be on some kind of plane with God. Many Christians believed in the 2nd and 3rd century that there was a war going on in heaven with satan taking people captive and God paying a “ransom” to get them released. Yet, God can just as easily and safely take anything away from satan He wants, without paying a ransom, so it would actually be wrong for God to pay satan off.

In the Old Testament water and blood was used to outwardly cleanse stuff; to set these people or objects apart from others and make them holy. It was ritualistic, but helped the people visualize what was happening spiritually and what will happen with Christ, but the blood of animals was never to be taken internally, so the outside could be made holy but inwardly it was carnal.

Christ come along and says: John 6: 53 Jesus said to them,… “54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

Now before you like most others in John 6 run off in discuss, understand what Christ is saying. Read all of at least 1 Cor. 11 for just three verse says: 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

Paul uses the word bread and cup showing it is not actual flesh and blood, but it should be treated as Christ’s flesh and blood.

God is not the blood thirsty one, but I am for I want eternal life. I do not literally drink Christ’s blood but the cup (wine) and I do literally feel that wine representing Christ’s blood flowing down my throat and over my heart cleansing me inwardly.

From Christ’s pray in the Garden and God’s loving empathy for Christ tells us they personally wanted His blood to remain in His veins, but I need to know it left His body and is available to wash me (make me Holy) both inwardly and outwardly. It is truly sad and horrible what I require and it is certainly nothing I could ask of God and Christ, but Christ freely gave it to me to help me to just feel and know I am cleansed.

Remembering the cross is not a happy moment for me and I wish we did not use it as jewelry. The only thing that keeps me standing when thinking about the cross is the greatest show of Love.

That is just a little about the blood let me know if you really want to know more about atonement.
 
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Mathetes66

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"From Christ’s pray in the Garden and God’s loving empathy for Christ tells us they personally wanted His blood to remain in His veins, but I need to know it left His body and is available to wash me (make me Holy) both inwardly and outwardly. It is truly sad and horrible what I require and it is certainly nothing I could ask of God and Christ, but Christ freely gave it to me to help me to just feel and know I am cleansed."

First of all, the heavenly Father & the Messiah did NOT want His blood to remain in His veins. Christ repeatedly said He was going to suffer, die on a cross, shed His blood to establish the New Covenant IN HIS BLOOD. The Father SENT HIM to be incarnated & die on the cross & needed A BLOOD ATONEMENT MADE ONCE FOR ALL, so that we could have our sins forgiven, could be reconciled to Him, bought back from the slave market of sin with the PRECIOUS blood of Christ.

It is NOT truly sad & horrible what we require to have our sins atoned for & to redeem us & reconcile us back to God in FELLOWSHIP, when we repent and believe the gospel. The apostle Peter calls it PRECIOUS BLOOD, not sad & horrible. Christ endured the cross because of the JOY SET BEFORE HIM! He willingly gave up His innocent life to death & shed His blood once for all time, to bring salvation, forgiveness & redemption.

I Pet 1:18,19 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or spot.

Hebrews 12:2,3 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for THE JOY SET BEFORE HIM ENDURED THE CROSS, scorning its shame & sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. CONSIDER HIM, who endured such hostility from sinners, so that you will not grow weary & lose heart.

God did not have to appease the devil in any way. Jesus came to conquer by His suffering, death, burial & resurrection. He has the keys of Hades & death; He overcame death so that we might be set free in the glorious liberty that comes from being continually cleansed by His precious blood.

WE are to take up our cross DAILY, denying ourselves & following Him, being crucified with Him, offering up our bodies & lives as a 'LIVING SACRIFICE.'

Every day now around the world, many Christians are spilling their blood in martyrdom because of their faith in Christ, sharing in the fellowship of His sufferings.

Rom 3:25 GOD PRESENTED HIM as an atoning sacrifice THROUGH FAITH IN HIS BLOOD, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand.

Heb 12:22-25 Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels in joyful assembly, to the congregation of the firstborn, enrolled in heaven. You have come to God the judge of all men, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, & to the SPRINKLED BLOOD THAT SPEAKS A BETTER WORD than the blood of Abel. See to it that you do not refuse Him who speaks.

Phil 3:7-11 But whatever was an asset to me I count as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things as loss compared to the surpassing excellence of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have lost all things.

I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ & be found in Him, not having my own righteousness from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God on the basis of faith.

10I want to know Christ AND the power of His resurrection AND THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SUFFERINGS, BEING CONFORMED TO HIM IN HIS DEATH, if by any means I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.


 
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Soyeong

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Is it possible to be a Christian and not believe in blood sacrifice -- that is, to not believe that God requires or ever required blood sacrifice to forgive sins? The Old Testament prophets, in contradiction to the Jewish sacrificial system, stated that God does not require blood sacrifice. Jeremiah has God stating it directly, and Jesus affirms and repeats this. Thus, I contend that the OT blood sacrifices were not from God but were influenced by the pagan religions.

Accordingly, my view of the Atonement encompasses the early church doctrines: Ransom/Christus Victor/Recapitulation. I reject all Western, Latin views of the atonement.

Jeremiah 7:22 For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.

The Law in regard to the sacrificial system were not given until after the incident with the golden calf, so they were not given on the day that God brought them out of the land of Egypt, but rather that came later.

Psalms 51:16-19 For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. 18 Do good to Zion in your good pleasure; build up the walls of Jerusalem; 19 then will you delight in right sacrifices, in burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings; then bulls will be offered on your altar.

God would not have command offerings if they were not something that He wanted His people to do, how the offerings themselves were not the object that God wanted, but rather the object that God wanted was a broken and contrite heart, and the offering was just the means of expressing that. Verses 18-19 speak about doing good and building up the walls of Jerusalem, then they will delight in right sacrifices, so verses 16-17 should not not be understood as speaking against making offerings.

The book of Exodus ends with the glory of God descending on the tent of meeting and the problem of no one being able to approach while Leviticus begins with God calling out instructions for how to draw close to Him, and indeed that is what the root word for "offering" means. So Leviticus shouldn't be understood as butcher's manual, but as instructions for how to draw close to God and restore our relationship with Him. Someone who was offering an animal without repenting was missing the whole point and accomplishing nothing more than depriving themselves of livestock.

Isaiah 1:12-17 “When you come to appear before me, who has required of you this trampling of my courts? 13 Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations— I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly. 14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates; they have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them. 15 When you spread out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood. 16 Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes; cease to do evil, 17 learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause.

Again, the problem was not with offerings, with God's holy days, or with prayer, but that they were doing these things while their hands were full with blood and that they need to do good. In 1 John 4:20 we can't love God while we hate our brother. In Matthew 5:23-24, Jesus said that when we bring a gift and remember that our brother has something against us, then we should leave our offering at the altar, the go become reconciled to our brother first, then come offering our gift. So again, we need to do good and love our neighbor so that we come before God with a right heart.

If you are interested, I can recommend to you a study on Finding Messiah in Leviticus.
 
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zoidar

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Is it possible to be a Christian and not believe in blood sacrifice -- that is, to not believe that God requires or ever required blood sacrifice to forgive sins? The Old Testament prophets, in contradiction to the Jewish sacrificial system, stated that God does not require blood sacrifice. Jeremiah has God stating it directly, and Jesus affirms and repeats this. Thus, I contend that the OT blood sacrifices were not from God but were influenced by the pagan religions.

Accordingly, my view of the Atonement encompasses the early church doctrines: Ransom/Christus Victor/Recapitulation. I reject all Western, Latin views of the atonement.

I see no real reason why you can't hold on to Jesus sacrifice for our sins and at the same time hold to Ransom/Christus Victor/Recapitulation doctrine.
 
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PaulCyp1

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Yes. Old Testament blood sacrifices were of pagan origin, like many of the traditions of ancient Judaism that Jesus Christ freed us from. However, He also chose blood sacrifice - of Himself - as the means by which to make salvation available to us.
 
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misput

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Yes, I realize that. And I couldn't be a member of any denomination that taught baptismal regeneration.

I know Calvin, Luther, and others held to Mary's perpetual virginity. But it contradicts scripture.

I can see the value of apostolic succession. But it didn't do much to preserve purity of doctrine in Anglicanism. Further, the NT teaches only two offices. I try to follow the NT, as I understand it. I don't deny that apostolic succession is a valid form of ministerial polity.
Is it possible to be a Christian and not believe in blood sacrifice -- that is, to not believe that God requires or ever required blood sacrifice to forgive sins? The Old Testament prophets, in contradiction to the Jewish sacrificial system, stated that God does not require blood sacrifice. Jeremiah has God stating it directly, and Jesus affirms and repeats this. Thus, I contend that the OT blood sacrifices were not from God but were influenced by the pagan religions.

Accordingly, my view of the Atonement encompasses the early church doctrines: Ransom/Christus Victor/Recapitulation. I reject all Western, Latin views of the atonement.
Not believing one of the key issues of atonement because you do not understand it is like a little child saying to his parents, I do not believe fire will harm me. Someone may be fixen to get a roasted to to! : ) seriously, i have a little insight on this matter, let me know if you would like to hear it.
 
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