Who believes we are in the latter days and that the Rapture will happen in our lifetime?

[keras]

If you are so certain your dating hypothesis is correct why not follow the biblical advice and let it be established by two or three witnesses? I am not talking about you rcircle of people but bring it to outsiders who have no interest in you per se'and can look and study with a far more objective and biblical look.

Quite a few others on the forums have agreed with the timeline I presented, in #258. At least, they can't find any fault with it!
I did have the help of a Jewish man in America. He set it out differently, I put it into an easier to read format.
I sent it to the Rabbi's at the Kolhator website. They rejected it.

This scene is in heaven! Prior to Jesus' return to establish the millennial kingdom!

Revelation 19:7-9 does not say where it takes place. You have made an assumption, a guess based on your 'rapture to heaven' belief.
As the Bible never says that the Lord will take His people to heaven, your guess is wrong and a serious error.

So the church has to get to heaven before Jesus returns to earth! And its works to be judged at teh bema seat judgment! And rewards given (the crowns which John saw the elders casting before Jesus feet

More error; Jesus will give the rewards at His Return. Matthew 16:27

 

[Jipsah]

Time is broken up into seven dispensations: Innocence, Conscience, Human Government, Promise, Law, Grace, and Kingdom.

Interesting idea. Is it original?

The dispensation of Grace ... the one we're in now ... was not revealed to anyone prior to Jesus' first advent. In fact, it was so secret that even the angels didn't know about it:

I guess that answers my question, then.

 

[nolidad]

Quite a few others on the forums have agreed with the timeline I presented, in #258. At least, they can't find any fault with it!
I did have the help of a Jewish man in America. He set it out differently, I put it into an easier to read format.
I sent it to the Rabbi's at the Kolhator website. They rejected it.

Revelation 19:7-9 does not say where it takes place. You have made an assumption, a guess based on your 'rapture to heaven' belief.
As the Bible never says that the Lord will take His people to heaven, your guess is wrong and a serious error.

More error; Jesus will give the rewards at His Return. Matthew 16:27

Rev. 19:1

Revelation 19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

so unless you have evidence that says verse one comes after chronologically verses 2- end of the chapter you are just wrong! For after the marriage supper Jesus returns!

So tell us what special revelation was given to you that we should read Revelation 19 1-9 as events that happen before verses 11-21 when Jesus returns to the earth! For a normal usual reading would be the marriage supper takes place in heaven and then Jesus returns to earth!

As for rewards? The bride may very well receive her rewards after His return, but she returns with Him! Do not confuse our clean robes (the only righteous act for that is to be saved) and our crowns for works of faith!

 

[keras]

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

These people are those who we are told will be in heaven; can only be the souls of the martyrs, as seen in Revelation 6:9-11. They are able to cry out at times, as allowed by God.
Proved by how they thank God for taking vengeance for their blood, Revelation 19:2b.
THEY ARE DEAD CHRISTIANS! Martyred for their faith.

The Marriage supper will happen at the Return, probably after Armageddon. We Christians will be transported to where Jesus will be, as Paul tells us in 1 Thess 4:17, by the angels; Matthew 24:31, and in Jerusalem; Zephaniah 14:3

So your belief of the Church going to live in heaven is simply a fable that you have fallen for, taught to you and millions of others by the ravening wolves among the flock. Acts 20:29
You continue to promote that false teaching, despite there being no scripture that says the Lord intends to take His people to heaven. In fact Jesus said 5 times, that such a thing was impossible. John 3:13, John 7:34, John 17:15, John 8:21-23, Revelation 2:25-26

 

[nolidad]

These people are those who we are told will be in heaven; can only be the souls of the martyrs, as seen in Revelation 6:9-11. They are able to cry out at times, as allowed by God.
Proved by how they thank God for taking vengeance for their blood, Revelation 19:2b.
THEY ARE DEAD CHRISTIANS! Martyred for their faith.

The Marriage supper will happen at the Return, probably after Armageddon. We Christians will be transported to where Jesus will be, as Paul tells us in 1 Thess 4:17, by the angels; Matthew 24:31, and in Jerusalem; Zephaniah 14:3

So your belief of the Church going to live in heaven is simply a fable that you have fallen for, taught to you and millions of others by the ravening wolves among the flock. Acts 20:29
You continue to promote that false teaching, despite there being no scripture that says the Lord intends to take His people to heaven. In fact Jesus said 5 times, that such a thing was impossible. John 3:13, John 7:34, John 17:15, John 8:21-23, Revelation 2:25-26

Well you pulling verses out of context does not make them support your position!

As for your assertion that they8 can only be- that is based on your defense of yoru position and not Scripture.

If one learns the reason for the 70th week of Daniel or the great Trib, what it is called in nearly all OT passages, and that the church is not destined for wrath-one realizes the church has to raptured sometime between now and before the antichrist signs that 7 year treaty with Israel.

It appears you believe in soul sleep for the church. Because you only say those souls at the marriage supper can only be trib saints. BUt Gods Word says:

2 Corinthians 5:5-8 King James Version (KJV)
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

In the OT when a believer died they went to Abraham's bosom. But now when a believer dsies their spirit goes to be with the Lord directly.

YOu make an assertion that the marriage supper happens after Jesus' returns. But Scripture says it happens before!

REv. 19:
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

There is nothing grammatically or linguistically to warrant this happening after Jesus comes back several verses after these verses.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

Praise God; only about 10+/- years and Jesus will be King over all the earth!

Great. Lets have a thread about this in 15 years.

 

[Douggg]

So tell us what special revelation was given to you that we should read Revelation 19 1-9 as events that happen before verses 11-21 when Jesus returns to the earth! For a normal usual reading would be the marriage supper takes place in heaven and then Jesus returns to earth!

I am thinking that them caught up in the rapture and them resurrected will have their life's judged for what they did for the cause of Christ. To take place in heaven while the world goes through the great tribulation. Which the righteousness of the saints is the metaphoric white linen of the bride - also metaphoric for - the Kingdom of God.

Blessed are them called to the marriage supper of the Lamb... which the them are the saints returning with Jesus.

The supper is metaphoric because it is judgment on them who will have gathered to make war on Jesus, and his army, as He brings the rule of the Kingdom of God down to earth. (In Psalms 2, it say the Kings of the earth seek to break "their" bans asunder.)

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
____________________________________________________________________________

The saints accompany Jesus, as his army.... See in verse 14? They accompany Jesus to the supper, i.e. the judgment, and are his army. The entire assembly, the saints, the holy angels, are the Kingdom of God - lead by the King.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

________________________________________________________________________________
In Zechariah 14, it also indicates the saints accompanying Jesus.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

[nolidad]

I am thinking that them caught up in the rapture and them resurrected will have their life's judged for what they did for the cause of Christ. To take place in heaven while the world goes through the great tribulation. Which the righteousness of the saints is the metaphoric white linen of the bride - also metaphoric for - the Kingdom of God.

Blessed are them called to the marriage supper of the Lamb... which the them are the saints returning with Jesus.

The supper is metaphoric because it is judgment on them who will have gathered to make war on Jesus, and his army, as He brings the rule of the Kingdom of God down to earth. (In Psalms 2, it say the Kings of the earth seek to break "their" bans asunder.)

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
____________________________________________________________________________

The saints accompany Jesus, as his army.... See in verse 14? They accompany Jesus to the supper, i.e. the judgment, and are his army. The entire assembly, the saints, the holy angels, are the Kingdom of God - lead by the King.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

I see no warrant for taking the robes of righteousness as metaphoric at all! Even though it is a book of Scripture that uses many8 symbolic things- IN heaven we will not be naked and the construct gives no hint these robes are metaphoric.

I agree they are rewards for obeying Jesus as Paul wrote in corinthians, these are the workls that are Gold silver and precious stones and done in obedience to Eph. 2:10

________________________________________________________________________________
In Zechariah 14, it also indicates the saints accompanying Jesus.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

The saints do accompany Jesus when He returns.

The two suppers are two separate events in Rev. 19.

JOhn the Baptist will be one called to the marriage of the Lamb as with all OT saints. Those called to the marriage are blessed.
I do not believe that God would call birds that will eat human flesh blessed!
One is the consummation of the church becoming the bride of Christ (we are His espoused now) and the opther is the end consequence of Jesus conquering teh antichrist and His armies.

They are also called by 2 different things

1. The marriage supper of the Lamb!
2. Supper of the Great God.

An excellent short study on this is here:
http://www.arielm.org/dcs/pdf/mbs113m.pdf

 

[Douggg]

I do not believe that God would call birds that will eat human flesh blessed!

It is implying that the Lord strikes those people dead, who will have gathered to make war on him.

It is the dead bodies the birds will gorge on.

Ezekiel 39:17-20 = Revelation 19:17-18 , 19:21

Ezekiel 38-39 is critical to the end times, sequence of events. Because it has right before the 7 years; the 7 years; and the end of the 7 years.

There are two feasts on the dead bodies in Ezekiel 39:
The first one is Ezekiel 39:4, on Gog's army, right before the 7 years start.

Then the 7 years, in Ezekiel 39:9 - which correspond to the 7 years timeframe in Daniel 9:27

Then Armageddon gathering of the nations, and the aftermath feast by the birds and beasts, because of judgement by Jesus, in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21, having returned down to earth...

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

Jesus will have just judged them (the heathen) that were going to make war on him. This is also in Revelation 19:21

19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

That's the actual marriage supper. It is metaphoric. It is not a pleasant marriage supper as one would normally associate with a marriage supper. Or one that takes place in heaven, although that is where Jesus and the saints will be coming from.

What it is about though is the Kingdom of God being brought down here to earth. Which, after the judgment on the heathen, Jesus will rule the nations with a rod of iron.

And the saints will rule with Him.

________________________________________________________________

Ezekiel 38-39 gives us a firm concrete framework which to fit the events. The parable of the fig tree gives us what generation when the events are fulfilled.

 

[iamlamad]

I apologize if this question has already been asked.

I am wondering if anyone believes that we are in last days based on prophecies and why. If you do not think so, I would also like to know why you think this.

Thanks in advance!

The "last days" began in the first century: the writer of Hebrews wrote, "in these last days..."

Therefore we are certainly IN the last days, and by now at the very END of the last days! God planned for man to rule earth for 6000 years, and for God to rule earth during the 7th thousand years. We are very very close to the year 6000 since Adam died.

 

[nolidad]

It is implying that the Lord strikes those people dead, who will have gathered to make war on him.

It is the dead bodies the birds will gorge on.

Ezekiel 39:17-20 = Revelation 19:17-18 , 19:21

Ezekiel 38-39 is critical to the end times, sequence of events. Because it has right before the 7 years; the 7 years; and the end of the 7 years.

There are two feasts on the dead bodies in Ezekiel 39:
The first one is Ezekiel 39:4, on Gog's army, right before the 7 years start.

Then the 7 years, in Ezekiel 39:9 - which correspond to the 7 years timeframe in Daniel 9:27

Then Armageddon gathering of the nations, and the aftermath feast by the birds and beasts, because of judgement by Jesus, in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21, having returned down to earth...

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

Ezekiel 38-39 are not necessary end time events! The Russian invasion with its allies as described in Ez.38-39 have to take place no later than 3 1/2 years before the tribulation begins. Why?

Ez. 39:

5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.

6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the Lord.

7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel.

8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord God; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:




1. Now we know factually from Matthew 24 and REv. 12-13 that at the midpoint of the trib Israel has to flee the land. Can't burn weapons of war for fuel if they are fleeing all out genocide.

2. The two descriptions of the birds and beasts eating are one event. Verse 4 is the statement of that fact and verse 17 is God telling Ezekiel to issue the command to gather the birds and beasts.

3. Rev. 19 the command goes forth from an angel while in Ezekiel God tells Ezekiel to issue the command.

4. Ez. 39 is to turn the heart of Israel back to the Lord and for the nations to know God has not forsaken Israel.

5. REv. 19: The antichrist and false prophet gather the armies to make war against Jesus, while in Ezekiel the limited armies are gathered against Israel, not Jesus! Rev. 19 are the armies of the whole world while Ezekiel 39 is an army of limited nations.

 

[keras]

As for your assertion that they8 can only be- that is based on your defense of yoru position and not Scripture.

If one learns the reason for the 70th week of Daniel or the great Trib, what it is called in nearly all OT passages, and that the church is not destined for wrath-one realizes the church has to raptured sometime between now and before the antichrist signs that 7 year treaty with Israel.

You don't use any scriptures in the defense of your position, just an assumption that there must be a 'rapture', because you think Revelation 3:10 means removal, when it actually means protection. Proved by many verses: Isaiah 43:2, 1 Corinthians 10:13, +

Get this: the 'rapture to heaven' theory is a Satanic lie and if you can't renounce it, at least cease promoting it, as teachers will be judged more severely. James 3:1

 

[Douggg]

1. Now we know factually from Matthew 24 and REv. 12-13 that at the midpoint of the trib Israel has to flee the land. Can't burn weapons of war for fuel if they are fleeing all out genocide.

The Jews don't flee the land: they flee into the mountains, in Matthew 24.

In the mountain valleys is where they will make use of all the remains of Gog's war machinery will be, containing diesel fuel, which can be scavenged for heat and cooking.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand : )

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

2. The two descriptions of the birds and beasts eating are one event. Verse 4 is the statement of that fact and verse 17 is God telling Ezekiel to issue the command to gather the birds and beasts.

Two separate events. Separated by 7 years, 7 months of which involves the cleanup of all the dead bodies.

Verse 17, Ezekiel is not instructed to literally issue a command to the birds and beasts - it is a figure of speech of a future event to amplify the magnitude of the destruction of them which Jesus executes judgments on at His return

3. Rev. 19 the command goes forth from an angel while in Ezekiel God tells Ezekiel to issue the command.

In Ezekiel 39:17-20, it is a prophesy into the far distant future of Ezekiel's time. Revelation 19 makes it known that will be at Jesus's return.

4. Ez. 39 is to turn the heart of Israel back to the Lord and for the nations to know God has not forsaken Israel.

The destruction of Gog/Magog will have that effect. And also it will be a judgment on Islam, for the evil and lies it has done in the name of allah - by falsely claiming that allah is God.

5. REv. 19: The antichrist and false prophet gather the armies to make war against Jesus, while in Ezekiel the limited armies are gathered against Israel, not Jesus! Rev. 19 are the armies of the whole world while Ezekiel 39 is an army of limited nations.

The first feast in Ezekiel 39:4 is on Gog's army, attacking Israel - as you say.

differently....

The second feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the armies of the kings of the earth, lead by the Antichrist, False Prophet, Satan - to make war against Jesus and His army.

The time between those two feasts is the 7 years.

 

[nolidad]

You don't use any scriptures in the defense of your position, just an assumption that there must be a 'rapture', because you think Revelation 3:10 means removal, when it actually means protection. Proved by many verses: Isaiah 43:2, 1 Corinthians 10:13, +

Get this: the 'rapture to heaven' theory is a Satanic lie and if you can't renounce it, at least cease promoting it, as teachers will be judged more severely. James 3:1

No I believe in a rapture because the bible says there is a rapture!

None of those verses are used to show the rapture!

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 King James Version (KJV)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Coming is "parousia" which is best defined in its primary as a coming near.

Caught up is harpazo- which is to snatch or grab with force!

 

[nolidad]

The Jews don't flee the land: they flee into the mountains, in Matthew 24.

In the mountain valleys is where they will make use of all the remains of Gog's war machinery will be, containing diesel fuel, which can be scavenged for heat and cooking.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand : )

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

They also flee into the wilderness (Re. 12:6)
and they go to a place in Hebrew is called Bozrah (Is. 63, Micah 2)

Israel flees ti a place in teh mountains and a place in the wilderness which was prepared for them for God to care for them for 3 1/2 years. That place is known as Petra in the mountais of the trans Jordanian wilderness!

The destruction of Gog/Magog will have that effect. And also it will be a judgment on Islam, for the evil and lies it has done in the name of allah - by falsely claiming that allah is God.

The Gog magog invasion of Ezekiel 38-39 not the one in Revelation. That is a tiotally different event separated by at least 1,003 years.

The first feast in Ezekiel 39:4 is on Gog's army, attacking Israel - as you say.

differently....

The second feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the armies of the kings of the earth, lead by the Antichrist, False Prophet, Satan - to make war against Jesus and His army.

The time between those two feasts is the 7 years.

All of Ezekiel 38-39 is the pre tribulation invasion of Russia, Iran, Syria, Ethiopia, Turkey, and probably the Sudan. Chapters 38-39 are ont thought about one war!

39:4 is the simple fact that god will give the corpses to th ebirds and beasts and verse 17 is the command for that to happen. There can be no other trnslation based on grammar and language.

 

[Douggg]

The Gog magog invasion of Ezekiel 38-39 not the one in Revelation. That is a tiotally different event separated by at least 1,003 years.

Agreed. Ezekiel 38-39, Gog/Magog takes place right before the 7 years begin, and is not the Revelation 20 reference.

The Gog/Magog event description ends in Ezekiel 39:16. Ezekiel 39:17-20 is seven years later Armageddon feast.

All of Ezekiel 38-39 is the pre tribulation invasion of Russia, Iran, Syria, Ethiopia, Turkey, and probably the Sudan. Chapters 38-39 are ont thought about one war!

39:4 is the simple fact that god will give the corpses to th ebirds and beasts and verse 17 is the command for that to happen. There can be no other trnslation based on grammar and language.

Ezekiel 38:1-13, the precondition for Gog/Magog.
Ezekiel 38:14-23 the attack and judgement on Gog/Magog
Ezekiel 39:1-6 judgement on Gog's army
Ezekiel 39:7-16 clean up the land in the aftermath
Ezekiel 39:17-29 Jesus's judgement on the heathen 7 years later, and His Return, restoring the house of Israel, bringing all of them back to the land of Israel, none left in the nations..

Regarding the whole interpretation of Ezekiel 39, you are not taking into account that it is Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29, having returned to earth, setting his glory among the nations. In those verses, he is recounting the last 2000 years of house of Israel going into dispersion for transgressing against him, rejecting him as the messiah.

And refusing to accept that He is the Lord their God. He is also speaking in the verses about them being back in right standing with Him.

Ezekiel 39:28 equates to Matthew 24:31.

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

While currently there are Jews who came from the nations when Israel became a nation again in 1948, there is a still a big portion of them in the nations. And that will be the case when Gog/Magog takes place.

It is not until 7 years following Gog/Magog, and Jesus returned that all of the Jews will be brought back to the land of Israel.
____________________________________________________________________

In Ezekiel 39:21, that Jesus sets his glory among the heathen (the nations at the time) is in Psalms 2. Which is also a description of Armageddon when the kings of the earth decide to make war on Jesus.

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

I am skipping down a few verses....

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

__________________________________________________________________

In Psalms 110 is another, speaking of Jesus and his execution of judgment on the heathen in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

This is what you need to focus on, right here, to know that Ezekiel 39 is divided up in two parts - separated by 7 years.

Ezekiel 39: 21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

_______________________________________________________________________________

I made a chart of the path of the arch villain of the end times to the beginning of the great tribulation. You will see on my chart that I have Gog/Magog near the top.

I don't disagree with you that Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38/39 is not the same as in Revelation 20.

However what you are not getting is that about half of Ezekiel 39 is not about Gog/Magog, but about Jesus's return 7 years later. Ezekiel 39:17-20 is Revelation 19:17-18. And is also Psalms 2 and Psalms 110. And also Ezekiel 39:28 is Matthew 24:31.

 

[Douggg]

.

 

[nolidad]

I made a chart of the path of the arch villain of the end times to the beginning of the great tribulation. You will see on my chart that I have Gog/Magog near the top.

I don't disagree with you that Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38/39 is not the same as in Revelation 20.

However what you are not getting is that about half of Ezekiel 39 is not about Gog/Magog, but about Jesus's return 7 years later. Ezekiel 39:17-20 is Revelation 19:17-18. And is also Psalms 2 and Psalms 110. And also Ezekiel 39:28 is Matthew 24:31.

Well everyone is free to believe what they want. but your statement is just not biblical.

there is nothing in Ezekiel 39 that tells us verses 1-16 start prior to the tribulation (as they must by at least 3.5 years) and then verse 17 is at the end of the trib when Jesus returns.

Once again the statement of the birds feasting in verse 4 is a simple statement without regard to time.
verse 17 is the fulfillment of the statement in verse 4.

Gog is not the antichrist! The antichrist does not come from Russia. He will come from Rome! Now whether it was the Rome of Daniels Day, Jesus day or the end times is open for Scripture doesn't say, He is a Roman not Russian Prince.

It appears you have the ten head beast the EU. That is the common and popular dispensational belief, but it is in error!

Daniel 7 from 23 on clearly tells us that the fourth beast devours the whole world! Then from that one world govt. comes ten kingdoms or rulerships that rule the world governed by ten rulers. The eleventh horn is the Antichrist and He conquers three of the ten kings and the other seven give him allegiance so that the antichrist becomes the king of the world. this starts at the mid point of the trib.

Now the fourth beast is described as different from the others. Daniel 2 is a different dream, but the same history.

The head/1st beast is Babylon
The breast,arms/ 2nd beast is the Medeo Persian Empire
The belly and thighs/ 3rd beast is Greece
The legs and toes/ 4th beast IS NOT ROME but Republican form of Government It started with Rome but it has been carrying on ever since Rome.

It started united, but divides to two legs which matches the division of the Republic in the 3rd Century with Constantinople and Rome as Capitals. The Eastern Capital was constantinople for over a millenia until it transferred to Moescow.

Teh eastern leg went from Rome to teh HRE of the Germanic nation
THE HRE of the Frankish NAtion
THE HRE of the Spanishi NAtion, then England and now america.

Rome never ruled the world nor even the known world alexander the great conquered more than the Roman Empire and the fourth beast has to conquers the whole world. But before this- there needs to be the one world govt. that breaks into teh ten toes/ten horns. From these rises the antichrist!

There is a great in depth book called "Footsteps of the Messiah" by Dr. A. Fruchtenbaum that I would recommend to all. I* have used this in teaching Eschatology in Bible Institute.

 

[Douggg]

Gog is not the antichrist! The antichrist does not come from Russia. He will come from Rome! Now whether it was the Rome of Daniels Day, Jesus day or the end times is open for Scripture doesn't say, He is a Roman not Russian Prince.

Gog is not the Antichrist. I never claimed he was.

There is a great in depth book called "Footsteps of the Messiah" by Dr. A. Fruchtenbaum that I would recommend to all. I* have used this in teaching Eschatology in Bible Institute.

Well, you need to refine your understanding.

The fourth kingdom devouring the entire world does not equate to world government. It indicates that the fourth kingdom will have dominance over the rest of the world.

In Daniel 11, near the end of the 7 years, the beast will be attacked from the north, south, and east. So it is not a world government attacking itself. There will be global alliances, but not a single world government.

Are you aware that the EEC, the European Economic Community, was created by the Treaty of Rome (1957) ?

All of the well known commentators, and nearly all Christians make the same mistake of referring to the Antichrist improperly, as a universal term for the arch villain of the end times.

But being the Antichrist is just one of the roles that the person will go through on his way to his destruction.

And being the leader of the Roman Empire in the end times is not the role of being the Antichrist.

Being the 7th and 8th Caesar family king of the Roman Empire, the correct terms and roles are "the little horn" and "the beast".

Being the King of Israel for a while, although not sent by God to be their king, is role of being "the Antichrist". You wouldn't call the President of the United States, the mayor of NY, or the governor of Texas - would you? Same for the Antichrist. Being the little horn is not being the Antichrist.

So you and Dr Fruchtenbaum need to get your terms and concepts straight.
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The bible does not call the 7 years the tribulation, nor tribulation period. That is a repeated term which people use to describe the 7 year 70th week, but it is out of tradition.

Contrary to being tribulation, the first half of the 7 years, most of it will not be tribulation, but the world thinking it is living in the initial stages of the messianic age.

Differently, the term the great tribulation is in the end times passages and does describe a certain period in the end times. It will be 1335 days long. And although it begins in the middle part of the seven years, it is not at the exact midpoint, but starts a little earlier on day 1185 of the seven years.
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I would suggest that you go to this thread, and read my post #62, regarding what the term "the Antichrist" actually is referring to...

I believe we are entering the time soon

 

[keras]

No I believe in a rapture because the bible says there is a rapture!

Please say what you mean and mean what you say!
I refer to the theory of a 'rapture to heaven'.
Your quote of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 refers to a transportation of those who remain alive when Jesus Returns, to where He is. Initially in the clouds, then to Jerusalem, as we are told in Zechariah 14:3, Revelation 19:11-21, Matthew 24:31

Nowhere does the Bible say there will be a general rapture of Christians to heaven.
Those who have been fooled into believing that false teaching, will be very disappointed when they remain on earth during all that must happen to test us. 1 Peter 4:12