Discussion Theological theory Vs Faith

[Alithis]

And yet this does not happen everywhere in Scripture.
Yes, Peter and Paul performed miracles and raised the dead - sometimes. But sometimes they preached without doing these things.



WE can't bring the kingdom, God does that. Jesus taught us to pray, "thy kingdom come"; we wouldn't need to ask God to bring his kingdom if we were responsible for doing so.
Our task is to introduce people to the king. Jesus said "the kingdom of God is within you" - yes, if he is living in someone as king; it is.



The Gospel itself is power., Romans 1:16.
The Gospel contains the Good News that God raised Jesus from the dead by his power and that power can live in us.
Through the power of God people are born again, John 3:3, become new creations, 2 Corinthians 5:17, receive gifts 1 Corinthians 12:28, preach the Gospel and make disciples, Matthew 28:19. Christians have also testified that God's power has enabled them to break bad habits, freed them from addictions and enabled them to do things they would not have thought possible - like going into prisons or onto the mission field to preach. There are many testimonies of non Christians being born again by hearing the Gospel, accepting it and receiving this new life and new heart. Many have been attracted to the Good News, not by a miracle of healing - if someone doesn't want to believe, they can, and will, explain that away - but by seeing love, joy and a changed life in a Christian.
Jesus said that people would know that we are his disciples if we love one another; not when we perform miracles.



The message that Jesus brought - God is among you, you can talk to him directly, you can know him personally as your Father and he can live IN you - was new. He demonstrated that his words were true and showed people how much God loved and cared about them by healing them.
But he was persecuted, and almost stoned, not for his miracles but because he claimed to be God, John 10:33.


Yes.
That doesn't necessarily mean performing miracles though. Paul said that the Spirit is transforming us into Jesus' likeness, 2 Corinthians 3:18, not "transforming you so you have the ability to do miracles."



God can heal today; that is a fact and many have testified to that healing.
I believe God heals today, I have received healing - from him, not through a Christian preaching and demonstrating a gift. Many sick people HAVE been helped, and brought to Christ, by prayer, love, being visited and comforted etc. Some have become Christians and been saved without being physically healed.



We must preach the Good News and introduce that person to the God who is love; certainly.



If you believe that you can't show a sick person the love of God without laying hands on them and praying for their cancer to be removed; that's what you must do. As you said though, GOD does the miracle - and he may not. Or at least, not at that particular time. Joni Eareckson had, and has had, many hands laid on her - she is still in a wheelchair, but is making Christ known to thousands.

The cross shows us the love of God; the resurrection shows his power.
A person can accept him as king, be born again and in the kingdom without receivng, or doing, miracles of healing.



Another out of context verse which you have quoted to mean what you want it to mean.

I get it.. You dont believe .
You might want to rethink that stance.

I dont have the "gift of healing "
But i'v been gifted healing.... iv been healed. Very often.
Because iv been healed i know God heals.
Others have been healed also.
Healing the sick is actually a very basic thing
If we dont believe we can heal the sick In JESUS name
How can we believe the good news of Jesus saves...in his name.?
Its the same name.
Any onevwho believes Jesus can save and change our heart, can heal the sick in his name.
Why dont people see this all the time?
Unbelief.

Theological theory is useless just as faith without works is dead.

 

[nanookadenord]

I get it.. You dont believe .
You might want to rethink that stance.

I dont have the "gift of healing "
But i'v been gifted healing.... iv been healed. Very often.
Because iv been healed i know God heals.
Others have been healed also.
Healing the sick is actually a very basic thing
If we dont believe we can heal the sick In JESUS name
How can we believe the good news of Jesus saves...in his name.?
Its the same name.
Any onevwho believes Jesus can save and change our heart, can heal the sick in his name.
Why dont people see this all the time?
Unbelief.

Theological theory is useless just as faith without works is dead.

I have stated that I believe in healing, I myself cannot heal people. That is not what I have given to do. It's that simple. Reading the scripture I posted which is plain to see and is not a mystery will show you that not all can heal.

Your "If we dont believe we can heal the sick In JESUS name
How can we believe the good news of Jesus saves...in his name.?" is a non-sequitur.

I believe that Jesus saves, that's not in question at all. He is my savior and no one else. It doesn't mean that I have to interpret scriptures the way that you do, especially when it comes to plain to see and read scripture such as I posted.

You can heal, good on ya! Doesn't mean everyone can and scripture supports that.

 

[Alithis]

Nope. I posted the correct scripture, you are just choosing to ignore it in favor of your pet doctrine, which the scripture I posted refutes, which is your dilemma, not mine..

I have faith, lots of faith, still cannot heal.

I cant heal either....but Jesus can! And commands his disciples to do so in his name .
You quoted 1 verse about the gifts
. i showed you the gifts are for the edifying and equipping of the whole body so all can do the labour of the Gospel.
Do you believe what Jesus said ?
He said if you say to this tree be plucked up and cast into the sea and do not doubt in your heart it will be done.
He said many astoundings statements about what we can do in his name of we sincerely believe..
Is he telling the truth?
Do you believe him ?
He said whatever you ask in his name you have it
Its written these signs shall follow those that believe.. They shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover..
Is it true? Do you believe it ?
They shall speak with other tongues?
Do you believe it ?
They will drive out devils ...do you believe it.
When did the word of God become null and void ?
It did not
HIS word is true and he is faithful to it.

Only believe...
Unbelief gets nothing promised

 

[Alithis]

that the amassing of theological theories which do not amount to the obedient action of faith ...
Are as useless as workless faith .
Because they Are workless faith

Some want to focus it onto a singular issue.

But as iv said earlier .making more disciples can only be done if one is a diciple of JESUS
.
Many make disciples...but of what and of whom are they disciples ?
Many of us , myself included.were made disciples of a sunday club .
We were discipled into all manner of theories.
Theories which excused the ongoing knowing practice of sin
Theories which discipled us into tithing.
Theories that expounded notions of a supernatueal God
- yet displayed practices that denied he can do anything supernateral.
Theories that discipled us into attending a building for 2 hours on a sunday
Theories that discipled us into singing songs
.which later became forms of group entertainments..
The list goes on
.
We were disciples of a Traditional Sunday system .
But this did not match with the scriptural outline of a disciple of JESUS.
In fact one way to be very unpopular is to be a reminder of the requirements to be a disciple of JESUS ..

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple...

These words troubled me a very long time
.. They troubeld me because they challenge the very core of claimed trust in God .
So many claim they trust God
But they forsake nothing of thier own means
...they hold to God with one hand and just as tightly to the world and carnal reasoning with the other hand .
A long as this state of double mindedness persisted i could get no peace from those words. Only a sense of not yet having realized the truth of Jesus and a constant enmity waring against God as if he cannot Do All he has said.
and so i could not trust him to take him at his word.. Because the carnal mind warred against the mind of the spirit
It said but but but but...

When would peace come ..when could i find peace in the words of JESUS.?
Along with all his words.
His words goaded me
They judged me
The convicted me
His words in matthew ch 6 ..take no thought for what you will wear what you will eat...

But the carnal minded life strives to work for these things constantly
Day to day life for so many claiming to believe In Jesus centers and revolved around persuit of just such things..
And so,as many, i was a slave to the same persuits and filled with many theological theories with my belief strong but split and always in two minds and so the hard words of JESUS caused me no peace.

The remedy: to cast your bread upon the waters.
To cast yourself out into his word and there find he catches you in his net of unending power and faithfulness.
And there ..all his words become living evident fulfilled promises
And all his words become joy inexpressable and peace that passes understanding .
Where there is no more " but but .

There is just Christ .... The supernateral,living and only begotten son of God made manifest in the flesh Both able and willing to preform every promise.
And there in the abandonment of carnal reason....
There -we Dare to believe his every word..
His words become peace..

When we love him we obey him.
When we obey him we love him.
When we stop trying to fit him into our life and instead die to our life so we ,humbeld into insignificance fit into him- there is no more enmity .there is peace ..

Instead of trying to avoid the hard and uncomfortable words of JESUS.
Submit and DO them and no longer seek our own life for.it is not our own if we are in Christ.
As long as we insist on seeking our own agend. We are robbing God of the life of us that he has purchased and we wil find ourselves avoiding his hard words or even opposing his hard words..
But when we submit to his word to obey it...
Contrary to every lying fear, we find a victory greater then we could have imagined and a wonderfully Powerful God who can and does provide EVERYNEED according to.his riches in Glory.
Not according to the carnal minded reasoning of the flesh.
He is truly amazing

 

[Alithis]

One thing we are Not to do is recieve the Holy Spirit -and then live as if we have not done so.

 

[tampasteve]

MOD HAT
​

This thread has had a clean. Goading/flaming posts - and posts in response to goading/flaming posts have also been removed. Unfortunately this also means some good content was deleted, but such is the nature of thread cleans.

Do not goad
Do not flame
Implying another Christian is not one is Flaming

MOD HAT OFF
​

 

[Alithis]

There are many "kinds" of professing Christians.
And ultimately none of the kinds matter.
You can be a christian who believes and so takes obedient action...
Or you can be a Christian who does not believe the words of Jesus and proves this by taking No obedient action.

That is the same as the difference between theological theory. And the action of Faith.

Theological theory limits God down to the level of Man.
For instance It says oh sure..God can heal... But...

Always the but. The- but- says God is insufficient and not totaly cappable or willing
..the but comes in complete contradiction to his word.
The "but" is the declaration of the absence of faith.
It is impossible to please God , with a -but...

 

[hislegacy]

I speak of those who spout all the theological theories..but do not Go out and heal the sick ,preach the Gospel, drive out devils ..baptise in Jesus name and teach others to observe all Jesus commanded..

That is about 80% of the Church
90% of those who do not go to church
And 98% of the posters here.

So how do we disciple, inspire, motivate the mass majority to do so?

 

[Alithis]

That is about 80% of the Church
90% of those who do not go to church
And 98% of the posters here.

So how do we disciple, inspire, motivate the mass majority to do so?

you can't...
Nor did the lord JESUS.. He healed people and said " follow me"
The ones that followed he discipled,
The rest came for the show and the feed...
Sound familiar?

 

[hislegacy]

you can't...

Yes, you can. I’ve been doing it since 1987. Started as a volunteer training street ministerial groups then became part of a Pastoral staff in 1992 training healing and discipleship teams in my local church and churches in 26 states and five foreign countries.

I travel these days training pastors in international Bible Schools.

We are reaching millions with the Gospel.

And everything started with one reaching and discipling one. God brings the increase.

We disagree and I have about 27,000 brothers and sisters who would disagree also.

 

[Alithis]

Yes, you can. I’ve been doing it since 1987. Started as a volunteer training street ministerial groups then became part of a Pastoral staff in 1992 training healing and discipleship teams in my local church and churches in 26 states and five foreign countries.

I travel these days training pastors in international Bible Schools.

We are reaching millions with the Gospel.

And everything started with one reaching and discipling one. God brings the increase.

We disagree and I have about 27,000 brothers and sisters who would disagree also.

He does... 27000 vs 7billion
....narrow is the way and few thier be that find it.
On honesty..of that 27000 .how many actually Go and live out the Gospel..
Its not possible for you to answer of course.
But every denominational evangalistic movement boasts by numbers..
But the truth is ,YOU personally did not reach 27000 .and you preach or teach to large gatherings ypu did not reach .and in those large gatherings are people in very large numbers who come and sing and praise ..but do not go away and put into practice the theories youve expounded to them .
We both know it to be the case.
But STOP ... Jesus said it to be the case too .
But what we seek is to bring the Gospel and he brings the increase as you say..
If you can make one genuine active obedient disciple who makes one.. Recurring it is a wonderous thing..
We both know success in the kingdom of God is not measured in numbers.
And the truth is ... A vast percent of the western church does NOT do so.. They are discipled as sunday attendees and little more.
And that is a tradegy because YOU as ONE person went OUT and have wonderfully efected So many... And i joy in that .
.just imagine then if More gave up thier lives thier careers thier persuit of house and car and comfortable living...
Oh how we would reach so many.more ..

 

[Strong in Him]

He does... 27000 vs 7billion
....narrow is the way and few thier be that find it.
On honesty..of that 27000 .how many actually Go and live out the Gospel..

Living out the Gospel is done by many Christians in many different ways according to their gifts and calling.
You don't seem to believe that Christians are living out the Gospel unless they are going onto the streets and performing healing miracles - big difference.

 

[hislegacy]

On honesty..of that 27000 .how many actually Go and live out the Gospel..

27,000 are active full time ministers of the Gospel.

27,000 are preaching and living the Goapel in now 15 nations.

27,000 are making disciples of countless others.

One of that field has helped plant 11,000 churches in India by reaching others.

Some might say no you can’t, others are doing it. And there are thousands of us.

 

[hislegacy]

Just curious, how is it going with your method? I think it is a logical question since you questioned mine.

How is it going?

 

[Alithis]

Living out the Gospel is done by many Christians in many different ways according to their gifts and calling.
You don't seem to believe that Christians are living out the Gospel unless they are going onto the streets and performing healing miracles - big difference.

Iv never said that...

 

[Alithis]

27,000 are active full time ministers of the Gospel.

27,000 are preaching and living the Goapel in now 15 nations.

27,000 are making disciples of countless others.

One of that field has helped plant 11,000 churches in India by reaching others.

Some might say no you can’t, others are doing it. And there are thousands of us.

1.. They are numbers splashed on a screen.
I know for instance in congregation of 250 people ,i do not personally know more then 12 of them closly maybe 25 as aquaintence more then 30 to 40 as passing acquaintance and the rest by site of familiarity...
But you actually missed that i was attempting to NOT fight you personally but encourage and support your personal part in all of it.
In reply to your next post question ..its going great thanks.
We are unknown ..and since we abandoned western church system we have seen more healed delivered repent be baptised and filled with the Holy Spirit then attendend the entire disobedient congregation we once attended.
Among these, FEW are being closely discipled , as the few untangle themselves from the cares of this life to make themselves available for it.
Among them home fellowships have sprung up as is expected but we did not seek to Make that happen . As you say,God brings the increase. JESUS said I will build up my body (Ekklesia)
We can boast of nothing.
We are ALL called (as YOU well know and Do) each and every one of us to declare the good news of JESUS . If we declare something and then cant deliver on it.. We declare empty theories & heareres will quickly become dissillusioned ..
In some places outside the west... Healing is an accepted practice and if you come along preaching Christ ..and cannot do what thier local spiritualists can do and greater...they wont give much heed to anything we have to say.( im taking this topic back to the thread topic )
Hence theological theory means nothing without it being practiced.
Paul said he sought to preach "with the manifestation of the power"
Because the power of God gives the weight of Gods authority to what we preach.
(Which is why a great wrath of God awaits those who shame him by the misuse of both the preaching and the manifestation of his power for the sake of power fame or money)

Its no validation to speak of great numbers but only to testify of our own walk in God.
Because we cannot testify to the lives of 20,000 other people..they are not here to speak.
But that ONE leads another to christ and teaches them to observe all he commanded (which includes go heal ,preach ,cast out devils ,baptise and make more disciples)
Then the 2 of them do so to 2 more and the 4 do so to 4 more recurring
Its estimated in 32 years you have the potential to reach 7 billion people...

But if 1 of those disciples falls back and begins to teach the next one
..just attend sunday club sing songs and its ok your not called to preach the gospel to another human.. They do great violence to the kingdom of God and effect literally millions of lives by thier unvelievig disobedience.
Oh that each ONE would forsake sin
Forsake reputation seeking,
Forsake pursuit of the things of this world and Obey JESUS to reach one person at a time and stop thinking you must build some vastly populated costly building filled with disobedient singers.
How pleased the Lord will be.in that ONE persons obedience.

How do we convince the masses of churched people to repent and obey Jesus ?
By convincing the ONE person to follow Jesus in ALL ....

 

[mourningdove~]

Living out the Gospel is done by many Christians in many different ways according to their gifts and calling. ...

There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

~1 Corinthians 12:1-11

 

[Alithis]

There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

~1 Corinthians 12:1-11

The Same Spirit.....
Take note of that...
The posters says not all are called to heal
But modses that the gifts are given for the edifying of the body and as with apostles propgets teachers evangalist..the Equipping of the body unto the work of the Gospel
The work of the Gospel includes ... Heal the sick preach the gospel drive out devils ( they make people sick bodily emotionally and mentally and no amount of chiken soup delivered will aid them ) baptise people and make more diciples teaching them to observe (obey and Do) EVERYTHING JESUS commanded...

I notice people are always swift to appreciate any unsound doctrine which encourages them to NOT exercise faith in the word of God.but rather sway to more easy carnal minded practice.

 

[Strong in Him]

Iv never said that...

You've implied it, by telling me, when I talk of God's will being to feed the hungry etc and not everyone has the gift of healing, that I'm making excuses.

 

[Hillsage]

The Same Spirit.....
Take note of that...

Sorry to hack in here, but I tried to PM you and Sabertooth. When I hit send it said your name is blocked. Can you PM me?